So lets talk about the Solarian problem...


General Discussion

151 to 200 of 579 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
J4RH34D wrote:
You talk about plasma sheath as if it is an always on thing but to quote you "you can only use it only when fully attuned, which takes 3 rounds. which is a long time in combat."

Actually someone made that point and people started repeating it and it's wrong.

Plasma Sheath works as long as your attuned in Photon mode.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Because it's not right?

Solarian Rules wrote:
When you are attuned or fully attuned, your attacks with plasma sheath deal additional fire damage equal to half your level.

You just need to be attuned (Aka: In Solar mode), Not fully attuned (3 turns)


Ah. Apologies. I misread that. Plasma sheath is always on if you are photon attuned.

I do still stand by my point that unless the extra damage is helping me down enemies in less rounds, the utility of not maxing damage is worth it.


While I think there's some issues with the way the Solarian is designed. Here's my real problem with the Solarian -

Just about every Solarian I've seen on the boards and people trying to build one, they all look 90% identical!

Now there is minor tweaks and builds that are different. To be effective in combat there's just one way to build a Solarian. By this I mean Feats and Revelations taken.

All the other classes have a lot more options on what and how they want their builds to look like. They just have more flexibility for build types....except maybe the Envoy.


I think part of it is that the Solarian has a VERY focused combat build (As much as the Operative but the Operative also Skills like crazy, which adds some versatility).

I did actually end up writing a home-brew revelation for ranged specialist Solarians (And tied it to Graviton because Graviton is a sad, sad mode right now).


J4RH34D wrote:
You talk about plasma sheath as if it is an always on thing but to quote you "you can only use it only when fully attuned, which takes 3 rounds. which is a long time in combat."

Uh... No?

Plasma Sheath can be turned on as move action. After that it stays on for either 1 round or until you are no longer attuned or fully attuned to Photon.

So, generally:

Start of Turn 1: (Assuming your weapon is already drawn)
1. (No Action) Attune Photon
2. (Move Action) Activate Plasma Sheath
3. (Standard Action) Stellar Rush

Start of Turn 2: (Assuming your enemy is still in melee range)
1. (No Action) Attune Photon II
2. (Full Action) Full Attack (your plasma sheath is still up.)

Start of Turn 3: (Assuming your enemy is no longer in melee range)
1. (No Action) Attune Photon III (Fully Attuned)
2. (Move Action) Move where you need to go.
3. (Standard Action) Supernova.
4. (No Action) You are now unattuned.

If you don't do that, Plasma Sheath stays on until you are no longer attuned.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
mike roper wrote:
Ikiry0 wrote:

Because Charisma offers nothing BUT skills. To repost what I put before:

Strength How much Stuff you can carry, melee damage, melee attack rolls.
Dexterity AC, Ranged Attack Rolls, Ref Saves
Constitution Damage you can take, fort saves.
Intelligence Skill Points
Wisdom Will Saves
Charisma You get... NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY, SIR!!!

Every single stat offers something other than 'Just skills'. Skills are nice but most other stats offer skills AND something else. I mean, Stealth can negate an encounter just as much as Diplomacy but Dexterity still offers plenty else.

Also not true it affects the DC of Solarian powers

You're not wrong, but note that he's not digging into class features. He's listing the baseline, class agnostic benefits of the different ability scores. The reason why Charisma is generally considered an unpopular or weak ability score is that it brings "less to the table" than the other stats, since the only thing Charisma interacts with baseline are three skills, and those skills partially overlap one another. Contrast that to Dexterity. Dex is the corner stone of a very popular combat style, improves not one but two different defenses (armor class and reflex saves), boosts your initiative rolls, and supports a host of very useful skills.

Charisma also has a big problem with diminishing returns. Let's compare Computers/Engineering/Perception and Diplomacy for a second. While it's highly beneficial to have a party where multiple people invest in C/E/P, there is very limited value in having two party members that both specialize in Bluff/diplomacy/Intimidate.

Typically the PC with the higher skill modifier will take the captain role and handle all the social interaction. Since there are harsh ramifications for flubbing diplomacy & Intimidate checks to chat up NPCs you'll always want the player with the highest possible skill modifier to make the check, with the runner-up stuck doing "aid other" checks instead of being able to contribute in their own right.


The Solarian can be that one person


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Sure they can. So can the Envoy or the Operative and I think the Envoy calls dibs.


J4RH34D wrote:

Ah. Apologies. I misread that. Plasma sheath is always on if you are photon attuned.

I do still stand by my point that unless the extra damage is helping me down enemies in less rounds, the utility of not maxing damage is worth it.

It.. Will be?

Okay look, lets look at CR 10... So level 10...

So, you're fighting a Void Hag. (Alien Archive pg. 120)

It has 118 HP

You're doing 5d6 Damage with your Solar Weapon. 3d6 Naturally and +2d6 from a Crystal.

That is an average of 18 damage, then +10 for level, +6 for Strength then +5 for Plasma Sheath, +2 from Photon Attunement.

So 41 Damage per hit with Plasma Sheath or 37 Damage per hit without it.

In the course of this fight you are going to get:

1 attack from a charge, 1 attack from an AoO, and lets assume 1 full attack... Over the course of 2 rounds.

It has a KAC of 27, and if you are a Melee Solarian you're probably running a +17 to hit. (+10 BAB, +6 Strength (started at 16, 18 at 5, 19 at 10, +4 enhancement for 23), +1 Weapon Focus.)

Meaning you have a 55% chance to hit normally
(10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20)

You're likely getting bonuses from other sources, giving you a better chance to hit, but more commonly you'll see a +3 at this level. So you're hitting on a 7-20.

I'll just roll a die I have near my desk:
12, 6, 15, 19... So close...

In this case 3/4 attacks would have hit (including the 2 from the full attack):

You, without plasma sheath, would deal:
111 damage - The target is still alive. Hurt, but alive.

You, with plasma sheath, would deal:
123 damage - The target is dead.

Okay, maybe this was lucky, and it assumes you have 5d6 damage, which you could have only 4d6, at which point it does survive... Of course you're not supposed to be solo'ing CR 10s at level 10 either...

So... Lets look at a CR 8 and go with the lower 4d6 damage. Giving 14+10+2+5+6 damage or 37 damage.

You're spellcaster hunting - A CR 8 Spellcaster has around 105 HP.
3 attacks with a 37 average vs 4 attacks with a 32 Average. You are killing it faster.

It may only kill it faster by 1 hit, but faster is still faster... It... Dramatically... Increases at level 11.

Dark Archive

So you are right that damage starts at round one misread it. Sorry it's late >_>


J4RH34D wrote:
The Solarian can be that one person

So can the Soldier.

So can the Envoy.
So can the Operative.


HWalsh wrote:
It may only kill it faster by 1 hit, but faster is still faster... It... Dramatically... Increases at level 11.

Thank you for the math, William Shatner.


J4RH34D wrote:
The Solarian can be that one person

Other classes get more out of a super high charisma.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
J4RH34D wrote:
The Solarian can be that one person

Possibly, but then he'd be throwing shade on the other charisma-user in my example. Imagine pairing up an envoy and a solarian that both want to play "face". In that match-up, odds are the solarian would be browbeat and become the helper monkey. Ironically, charisma-heavy characters don't play well with other charisma characters. ^^

Would you mind also responding to the first half of my post, detailing why I think Charisma under delivers compared to other ability scores?


Ikiry0 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
It may only kill it faster by 1 hit, but faster is still faster... It... Dramatically... Increases at level 11.
Thank you for the math, William Shatner.

Actually should have been level 13 anyway... I remembered incorrectly. (it is late)

Solarian's Onslaught changes the Solarian Landscape a bit.


So it sometimes equates to 1 extra attack needed.

I feel that what I am getting in exchange is worth that slight increase in kill time.

I think at this point we are debating play styles.

I am a firm believer in the power of utility.
You are a firm believer in the power of damage.

I feel that the power from the utility of the class is worth having lower saves and sacrificing some damage.

It has also been shown up thread that you still have a pretty decent chance of making your important saves anyway.


Kudaku wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:
The Solarian can be that one person

Possibly, but then he'd be throwing shade on the other charisma-user in my example. Imagine pairing up an envoy and a solarian that both want to play "face". In that match-up, odds are the solarian would be browbeat and become the helper monkey. Ironically, charisma-heavy characters don't play well with other charisma characters. ^^

Would you mind also responding to the first half of my post, detailing why I think Charisma under delivers compared to other ability scores?

Yes Cha isn't the best stat.

However it is not as bad as everyone makes out.

Those three skills can be used in a multitude of ways.
One person on their own can use diplomacy to negate a combat, or bluff, or intimidate.
If you want to negate a combat with stealth you normally need everyone who wants to avoid the combat to have a good stealth.

Yes Cha only boosts skills, but there are netire threads devoted to how one of those skills (Diplo) can wreck entire scenarios.

The skills Cha is tied to are more powerful than half of the stuff the other abilities do.

The power of these skills does obviously differ from table to table.


J4RH34D wrote:


Yes Cha isn't the best stat.
However it is not as bad as everyone makes out.

Yes Cha only boosts skills, but there are netire threads devoted to how one of those skills (Diplo) can wreck entire scenarios.

The skills Cha is tied to are more powerful than half of the stuff the other abilities do.

The power of these skills does obviously differ from table to table.

And it can also flat fail without even getting a chance to roll it if the enemy use the ultimate defence against it: Rolling Initiative. MDV: Fist isn't just an Exalted option.

In a sci-fi setting with space ships I'd honestly call Computers the most powerful skill.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sample Build:
NG Android Solarian Mercenary ||15str 12dex 10con 12int 10wis 14cha||
Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Culture, Diplomacy, Stealth
1. Fleet, Skill Adept (Bluff, Culture), Solar Armor, Black Hole, Supernova
2. Gravity Boost
3. Jet Dash, Sidereal Influence(Diplomacy, Stealth), Weapon Specialization
4. Stellar Rush
5. Enhanced Resistance(Kinetic Damage) ||17str 14dex 12con 12int 10wis 16cha||
6. Crush
7. Iron Will, Flashing Strikes
8. Blazing Orbit
9. Blind-Fight, Zenith Revelations(Star Acceleration, Wormholes)
10. Stealth Wrap||18str 14dex 14con 14int 10wis 18cha|| Skill: Bluff
11. Deflect Projectiles, Sidereal Influence(Culture, Bluff)
12. Soul Furnace
13. Weapon Focus (adv melee), Solarian’s Onslaught
14. Gravity Shield
15. Improved Iron Will ||18str 16dex 16con 16int 12wis 18cha|| Skill: Sense Motive
16. Astrologic Sense
17. Great Fortitude, Zenith Revelations(Ray of Light,Time Dilation)
18. Gravity Hold
19. Lightning Reflexes,Sidereal Influence(Intimidate, Sense Motive)
20. Hypnotic Glow, Stellar Paragon ||18str 18dex 18con 18int 14wis 18cha|| Skill: Intimidate

1. I make full use of sidereal influence

2. Race boost saves, which just means I didn't need to grab improved x feats earlier and for every save.

3. You see I clearly don't care about plasma sheathe

4. I value movement highly on Solarians so they can not generate soft cover for the enemy or swoop into flanking positions

5. Yes, I did calculate action economy for what revelations I chose. It influences my picks heavily.

6. Solarians want to pump every stat. Never increase for a mere +1. Even heavy armor solarians need the Dex.


MR. H wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

1. I make full use of sidereal influence

2. Race boost saves, which just means I didn't need to grab improved x feats earlier and for every save.

3. You see I clearly don't care about plasma sheathe

4. I value movement highly on Solarians so they can not generate soft cover for the enemy or swoop into flanking positions

5. Yes, I did calculate action economy for what revelations I chose. It influences my picks heavily.

6. Solarians want to pump every stat. Never increase for a mere +1. Even heavy armor solarians need the Dex.

There are serious weaknesses in your build in terms of offense.


Not doing the most damage is not a 'serious weakness'.
Again it is a different way to play the class.

It's like someone saying you can't play a fighter any way besides as an archer fighter because the archer fighter is the only way to play because it does the most damage.


J4RH34D wrote:

Not doing the most damage is not a 'serious weakness'.

Again it is a different way to play the class.

It's like someone saying you can't play a fighter any way besides as an archer fighter because the archer fighter is the only way to play because it does the most damage.

When you don't do anything as well as, or better than, any other class? That's kind of lousey. It's fine if you want to be the universal second stringer, but, personally, that's not fun.


Except you are doing some things better than a bunch of other classes.


After I struggled through this thread I come to the conclusion that some still believe that combat (especially dealing as much damage as possible in combat) is the most important thing in the game.

It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.

And all this class A can do this better than the Solarian and class B can do that batter than the Solarian, is pointless, no other class can do what the Solarian can do.


Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.

You might want to tell that to the Soldier, who is capable of nothing but combat class-wise.

Anyway: Good balance does not harm roleplay, it enhances it as it decouples worries about being good enough with picking what you want to play.


HWalsh wrote:
J4RH34D wrote:

Not doing the most damage is not a 'serious weakness'.

Again it is a different way to play the class.

It's like someone saying you can't play a fighter any way besides as an archer fighter because the archer fighter is the only way to play because it does the most damage.

When you don't do anything as well as, or better than, any other class? That's kind of lousey. It's fine if you want to be the universal second stringer, but, personally, that's not fun.

I firmly believe in the solarian generalist. You are an all-rounder, filling holes and disrupting the enemy. Everyone else in the party has various A-class tools. You always bring the B-class tool for the right job rather than trying to make an A-class tool work for the wrong job.

Solarians are basically full BAB partial casters with skill boost.


HWalsh wrote:
MR. H wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

1. I make full use of sidereal influence

2. Race boost saves, which just means I didn't need to grab improved x feats earlier and for every save.

3. You see I clearly don't care about plasma sheathe

4. I value movement highly on Solarians so they can not generate soft cover for the enemy or swoop into flanking positions

5. Yes, I did calculate action economy for what revelations I chose. It influences my picks heavily.

6. Solarians want to pump every stat. Never increase for a mere +1. Even heavy armor solarians need the Dex.

There are serious weaknesses in your build in terms of offense.

Like the last time we talked about this, personal upgrades aren't included in the build. It's not 18 vs 26 str it's 24 vs 26 str.


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Talking about combat is actually very important in terms of both Starfinder and Pathfinder because they are combat games. Yes they are called roleplaying games but there is no mechanic in the rules that rewards roleplaying, it's not part of the default reward structure. I could run two homebrew games using only the rules provided, one with 5 fully fleshed out characters with backstories and motivations, the other with just the character sheets and no story. At the end of those two sessions, even if the roleplaying was phenomenal in the first session, by the base rules of the game both parties will have the exact same amount of experience. The other aspects of the game may be valuable to certain groups, but the rules value the combat effectiveness so building effective characters is very much important. I'll add that I am someone that values roleplaying and story over mechanics and often introduces reward structures for good character moments, but if we're speaking in terms of the rules of the game, roleplaying and story has no actual effect. With all that being said, I think both builds have their own uses and a utility build can be mechanically effective provided the circumstances are right, but in most cases will lose out to a damage focused build. This will likely change in the future as more Solarian revelations are released, but as it stands the damage focused build is probably gonna feel more satisfying to play in general since CC is far more situational and there may be a lot of encounters where you just aren't useful. As for the save issues, I would like to see how it feels to play, but a buff from a revelation may be useful down the line.


Ikiry0 wrote:
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.

You might want to tell that to the Soldier, who is capable of nothing but combat class-wise.

Anyway: Good balance does not harm roleplay, it enhances it as it decouples worries about being good enough with picking what you want to play.

In an RPG you really should not need to worry about picking what to want to play. It is more fun to play some one who is not a min/max-ed combat machine.

I am sure that the classes in Starfinder are balanced but it seems that some players are unable to see this because they might have overlooked something.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:

In an RPG you really should not need to worry about picking what to want to play. It is more fun to play some one who is not a min/max-ed combat machine.

I am sure that the classes in Starfinder are balanced but it seems that some players are unable to see this because they might have overlooked something.

No, you shouldn't need to worry about it which is WHY balance is very important. A system where people don't need to worry about balance means that people can pick whatever they want.

And while I'm liking Starfinder and it's a vast step up from Pathfinder and 3.5 on that front, I'm not sure I'd say it's balanced. It's got some issues to work out (And support will hopefully help them).

Charisma is a core example of it not really being balanced. Charisma, as a stat, does nothing outside of skills. Other stats get skills AND a secondary effect. Pathfinder also has that issue, which is why stuff like a Paladin's Divine Grace often turn up. An ability powerful enough you'd not give it to any other stat but Charisma's innate weakness makes it alright.


Ikiry0 wrote:


Charisma is a core example of it not really being balanced. Charisma, as a stat, does nothing outside of skills. Other stats get skills AND a secondary effect. Pathfinder also has that issue, which is why stuff like a Paladin's Divine Grace often turn up. An ability powerful enough you'd not give it to any other stat but Charisma's innate weakness makes it alright.

/begin nitpick

Con bucks the trend by not contributing to skills. On the other hand it still technically does two things by boosting fort saves and stamina so it sort of evens out.

/end nitpick


Con is the other sad stat, yeah. It could have done with a skill or two.

MEANWHILE, LOOKING AT YOU DEXTERITY. YOU ARE A VERY OVERLOADED STAT.


Ikiry0 wrote:

Con is the other sad stat, yeah. It could have done with a skill or two.

MEANWHILE, LOOKING AT YOU DEXTERITY. YOU ARE A VERY OVERLOADED STAT.

Funnily enough, if you look at stats strictly in terms of how many different things they do strength ends up being the most overloaded.

Strength after all does:
Melee damage and accuracy
Thrown weapon damage and accuracy
Skill boost
Carrying capacity
More esoteric stuff like break checks

Not disagreeing with the overall thrust of your argument since Dex has far more universal appeal (and boosts more skills one of which falls under the critical category), just an amusing observation.


Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.

Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
Skills

All of them work nicely together without major overlap.


Ikiry0 wrote:

Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.

Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
Skills

All of them work nicely together without major overlap.

Don't forget Operative Weapon attack and damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
HWalsh wrote:
Ikiry0 wrote:

Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.

Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
Skills

All of them work nicely together without major overlap.

Don't forget Operative Weapon attack and damage.

At what point do Operative's get to add Dex to damage?


HWalsh wrote:
Ikiry0 wrote:

Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.

Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
Skills

All of them work nicely together without major overlap.

Don't forget Operative Weapon attack and damage.

Only attack.


Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?

Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.

Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.


Yeah, I remember in PF how everyone had a blast playing Harsk. Everyone found his (many many) weaknesses a truly enriching and fun experience!

^ the previous sentiment has been expressed by no one ever.

For a lot of people, playing the 5th wheel on the car is an immensely unsatisfying experience. Anyone can flesh out a character with roleplaying but a character perpetually overshadowed by everyone else mechanically is going to stick with you till you get a reroll and be an unsatisfying experience till then.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:

Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?

Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.

Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.

...you keep missing the point. That's why game balance is very important, to ALLOW such choices without compromising the characters effectiveness.


Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:

Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?

Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.

Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.

I have seen this argument so many times I cringe. This is like the guy who plays an int 14 wizard. It can be fun if everyone else is playing similar stat characters. But in the same party you have a Cha 18 sorcerer, that wizard is going to feel kinda left out.


The solarian class IS balanced. It is also an EXPERT's class. It can do many many things, but many of it's abilities are situational. A solarian CAN be very strong. It can also be very weak if the player does not understand the class and it's abilities. Poor choices can make any class less effective, but because many of the solarian's abilities ARE situational if a player makes poor choices the solarian will underperform. However if a player makes good choices and understands how to use those abilities to greatest effect a solarian can be just as impactful if not more impactful to a team than another class.
If the designers were to buff the solarian class you will make it easier to make an impactful character dispite poor choices. However you will also make the class more powerful than others in the hands of an expert which would lead to imbalance.
If you as a player cannot make use of the situational abilities whith the solarian class offers that's fine. Pick a different class. It does not mean that the class is imbalanced. It is similar to being a wizard. Often I know GMs will ask new players to not play a wizard as their first character because it is a complicated role with many choices to be made, some of which are not good. New players often play a wizard poorly, contribute little to the party, and get frustrated. However in the hands of an expert the wizard was brokenly powerful.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think another "issue" with the Solarian is a side effect of how situational a lot of its stuff is: It's one of those classes where you have to work with the GM so your stuff will ever actually come up. Like, say you took Soul Forge at 10 to deal with the Saves issues. Now say you've just turned level 15, and in those 5 levels not once has Curses, Disease, Drugs, Poison, or any of the conditions it cures when attuned actually comes up. Gonna feel bad. Or heck, even more basic than that: You take Stellar Rush, because you were on this site and read how amazing it is, but you're forever fighting in tight corridors where setting up a charge lane is basically impossible, even as a Standard. Or you took Gravity Anchor, but enemies never bother using Combat Maneuvers. I think you get my gist. Like, situational abilities can be great... if the situation comes up.

Now granted, this is probably an issue with dang near everyone (like, sucks to be an Envoy when every enemy's immune to mind-affecting and/or language dependent) but when the situational abilities are one of the selling points of the class, and they are incredibly situational sometimes... yeah. It's honestly no wonder people go for the always-useful abilities.

Edit: a word here, a letter there.


Shinigami02 said wrote:

I think another "issue" with the Solarian is a side effect of how situational a lot of its stuff is: It's one of those classes where you have to work with the GM so your stuff will ever actually come up. Like, say you took Soul Forge at 10 to deal with the Saves issues. Now say you've just turned level 15, and in those 5 levels not once has Curses, Disease, Drugs, Poison, or any of the conditions it cures when attuned actually comes up. Gonna feel bad. Or heck, even more basic than that: You take Stellar Rush, because you were on this site and read how amazing it is, but you're forever fighting in tight corridors where setting up a charge lane is basically impossible, even as a Standard. Or you took Gravity Anchor, but enemies never bother using Combat Maneuvers. I think you get my gist. Like, situational abilities can be great... if the situation comes up.

Now granted, this is probably an issue with dang near everyone (like, sucks to be an Envoy when every enemy's immune to mind-affecting and/or language dependent) but when the situational abilities are one of the selling points of the class, and they are incredibly situational sometimes... yeah. It's honestly no wonder people go for the always-useful abilities.

There is some truth to this sentiment. There ARE choices that for a solarian that are good in pretty much any situation , but it is easy to preclude your capability to use those. For instance plasma sheathe is a great broadly applicable ability, unless you build your character around shooting people instead of hitting them. Dark mater is great, DR is wonderful in all combat situations, but if you plan on being in solar mode you're out of luck. The class ITSELF makes broadly applicable abilities INTO situational ones, which means that you really have to know what you are doing to get the most out of it.

It feels very much like a less overpowered melee wizard to me because you need to have a good understanding of how your abilities and those of your opponent will all interact, or you will suffer. BUT if you do know what you are doing you can turn into a beam of light or make portals only your team can use, or create a 1 way wall for your team, and do so every combat all day. That is powerful, and used well is HUGELY impactful, even if the numbers are harder to quantify that just DPR.


Comparing starfinder to pathfinder is wrong. In pathfinder, you can build someone with a 20 DPR or 300 DPR at level 12. In starfinder you will never see that kind of discrepancy in the same class.

Mr H's build isn't going to do as much damage as HWalsh's build, but it's still going to crush the DPR of a technomancer.

The solarian class's chassis is strong enough that it doesn't have to be fully combat optimized to still be a strong party member.


I agree the problem isn't as bad as it was in Pathfinder with the wizard, I'm just trying to illustrate the point and many players know and understand the issues with the Pathfinder wizard. So it is a good example of a similar, if more extreme problem.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Luke Spencer wrote:
Talking about combat is actually very important in terms of both Starfinder and Pathfinder because they are combat games. Yes they are called roleplaying games but there is no mechanic in the rules that rewards roleplaying, it's not part of the default reward structure. I could run two homebrew games using only the rules provided, one with 5 fully fleshed out characters with backstories and motivations, the other with just the character sheets and no story. At the end of those two sessions, even if the roleplaying was phenomenal in the first session, by the base rules of the game both parties will have the exact same amount of experience. The other aspects of the game may be valuable to certain groups, but the rules value the combat effectiveness so building effective characters is very much important. I'll add that I am someone that values roleplaying and story over mechanics and often introduces reward structures for good character moments, but if we're speaking in terms of the rules of the game, roleplaying and story has no actual effect. With all that being said, I think both builds have their own uses and a utility build can be mechanically effective provided the circumstances are right, but in most cases will lose out to a damage focused build. This will likely change in the future as more Solarian revelations are released, but as it stands the damage focused build is probably gonna feel more satisfying to play in general since CC is far more situational and there may be a lot of encounters where you just aren't useful. As for the save issues, I would like to see how it feels to play, but a buff from a revelation may be useful down the line.

I can write a adventure with nothing but skill checks and no combat and still give out experience points with rules as written. Your point is not borne out by the facts.


Some of these arguments have me really curious. I think imma sit down over the next few evenings and put together a level 10 character of each class with a fairly holisitc build/world interaction approach and then see how each of them would perform in combat and out, and what they trade from one to be good in the ither, and hipefully get a better idea of whether or not the tradeoffs are worth it for each class

151 to 200 of 579 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / So lets talk about the Solarian problem... All Messageboards