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Because it's not right?
When you are attuned or fully attuned, your attacks with plasma sheath deal additional fire damage equal to half your level.
You just need to be attuned (Aka: In Solar mode), Not fully attuned (3 turns)
Ah. Apologies. I misread that. Plasma sheath is always on if you are photon attuned.
I do still stand by my point that unless the extra damage is helping me down enemies in less rounds, the utility of not maxing damage is worth it.
I think part of it is that the Solarian has a VERY focused combat build (As much as the Operative but the Operative also Skills like crazy, which adds some versatility).
I did actually end up writing a home-brew revelation for ranged specialist Solarians (And tied it to Graviton because Graviton is a sad, sad mode right now).
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Also not true it affects the DC of Solarian powersBecause Charisma offers nothing BUT skills. To repost what I put before:
Strength How much Stuff you can carry, melee damage, melee attack rolls.
Dexterity AC, Ranged Attack Rolls, Ref Saves
Constitution Damage you can take, fort saves.
Intelligence Skill Points
Wisdom Will Saves
Charisma You get... NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE!! GOOD DAY, SIR!!!Every single stat offers something other than 'Just skills'. Skills are nice but most other stats offer skills AND something else. I mean, Stealth can negate an encounter just as much as Diplomacy but Dexterity still offers plenty else.
You're not wrong, but note that he's not digging into class features. He's listing the baseline, class agnostic benefits of the different ability scores. The reason why Charisma is generally considered an unpopular or weak ability score is that it brings "less to the table" than the other stats, since the only thing Charisma interacts with baseline are three skills, and those skills partially overlap one another. Contrast that to Dexterity. Dex is the corner stone of a very popular combat style, improves not one but two different defenses (armor class and reflex saves), boosts your initiative rolls, and supports a host of very useful skills.
Charisma also has a big problem with diminishing returns. Let's compare Computers/Engineering/Perception and Diplomacy for a second. While it's highly beneficial to have a party where multiple people invest in C/E/P, there is very limited value in having two party members that both specialize in Bluff/diplomacy/Intimidate.
Typically the PC with the higher skill modifier will take the captain role and handle all the social interaction. Since there are harsh ramifications for flubbing diplomacy & Intimidate checks to chat up NPCs you'll always want the player with the highest possible skill modifier to make the check, with the runner-up stuck doing "aid other" checks instead of being able to contribute in their own right.
The Solarian can be that one person
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Sure they can. So can the Envoy or the Operative and I think the Envoy calls dibs.
It may only kill it faster by 1 hit, but faster is still faster... It... Dramatically... Increases at level 11.
Thank you for the math, William Shatner.
The Solarian can be that one person
Other classes get more out of a super high charisma.
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The Solarian can be that one person
Possibly, but then he'd be throwing shade on the other charisma-user in my example. Imagine pairing up an envoy and a solarian that both want to play "face". In that match-up, odds are the solarian would be browbeat and become the helper monkey. Ironically, charisma-heavy characters don't play well with other charisma characters. ^^
Would you mind also responding to the first half of my post, detailing why I think Charisma under delivers compared to other ability scores?
So it sometimes equates to 1 extra attack needed.
I feel that what I am getting in exchange is worth that slight increase in kill time.
I think at this point we are debating play styles.
I am a firm believer in the power of utility.
You are a firm believer in the power of damage.
I feel that the power from the utility of the class is worth having lower saves and sacrificing some damage.
It has also been shown up thread that you still have a pretty decent chance of making your important saves anyway.
The Solarian can be that one personPossibly, but then he'd be throwing shade on the other charisma-user in my example. Imagine pairing up an envoy and a solarian that both want to play "face". In that match-up, odds are the solarian would be browbeat and become the helper monkey. Ironically, charisma-heavy characters don't play well with other charisma characters. ^^
Would you mind also responding to the first half of my post, detailing why I think Charisma under delivers compared to other ability scores?
Yes Cha isn't the best stat.
However it is not as bad as everyone makes out.Those three skills can be used in a multitude of ways.
One person on their own can use diplomacy to negate a combat, or bluff, or intimidate.
If you want to negate a combat with stealth you normally need everyone who wants to avoid the combat to have a good stealth.
Yes Cha only boosts skills, but there are netire threads devoted to how one of those skills (Diplo) can wreck entire scenarios.
The skills Cha is tied to are more powerful than half of the stuff the other abilities do.
The power of these skills does obviously differ from table to table.
Yes Cha isn't the best stat.
However it is not as bad as everyone makes out.Yes Cha only boosts skills, but there are netire threads devoted to how one of those skills (Diplo) can wreck entire scenarios.
The skills Cha is tied to are more powerful than half of the stuff the other abilities do.
The power of these skills does obviously differ from table to table.
And it can also flat fail without even getting a chance to roll it if the enemy use the ultimate defence against it: Rolling Initiative. MDV: Fist isn't just an Exalted option.
In a sci-fi setting with space ships I'd honestly call Computers the most powerful skill.
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Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Culture, Diplomacy, Stealth
1. Fleet, Skill Adept (Bluff, Culture), Solar Armor, Black Hole, Supernova
2. Gravity Boost
3. Jet Dash, Sidereal Influence(Diplomacy, Stealth), Weapon Specialization
4. Stellar Rush
5. Enhanced Resistance(Kinetic Damage) ||17str 14dex 12con 12int 10wis 16cha||
6. Crush
7. Iron Will, Flashing Strikes
8. Blazing Orbit
9. Blind-Fight, Zenith Revelations(Star Acceleration, Wormholes)
10. Stealth Wrap||18str 14dex 14con 14int 10wis 18cha|| Skill: Bluff
11. Deflect Projectiles, Sidereal Influence(Culture, Bluff)
12. Soul Furnace
13. Weapon Focus (adv melee), Solarian’s Onslaught
14. Gravity Shield
15. Improved Iron Will ||18str 16dex 16con 16int 12wis 18cha|| Skill: Sense Motive
16. Astrologic Sense
17. Great Fortitude, Zenith Revelations(Ray of Light,Time Dilation)
18. Gravity Hold
19. Lightning Reflexes,Sidereal Influence(Intimidate, Sense Motive)
20. Hypnotic Glow, Stellar Paragon ||18str 18dex 18con 18int 14wis 18cha|| Skill: Intimidate
1. I make full use of sidereal influence
2. Race boost saves, which just means I didn't need to grab improved x feats earlier and for every save.
3. You see I clearly don't care about plasma sheathe
4. I value movement highly on Solarians so they can not generate soft cover for the enemy or swoop into flanking positions
5. Yes, I did calculate action economy for what revelations I chose. It influences my picks heavily.
6. Solarians want to pump every stat. Never increase for a mere +1. Even heavy armor solarians need the Dex.
Not doing the most damage is not a 'serious weakness'.
Again it is a different way to play the class.
It's like someone saying you can't play a fighter any way besides as an archer fighter because the archer fighter is the only way to play because it does the most damage.
Except you are doing some things better than a bunch of other classes.
After I struggled through this thread I come to the conclusion that some still believe that combat (especially dealing as much damage as possible in combat) is the most important thing in the game.
It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.
And all this class A can do this better than the Solarian and class B can do that batter than the Solarian, is pointless, no other class can do what the Solarian can do.
It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.
You might want to tell that to the Soldier, who is capable of nothing but combat class-wise.
Anyway: Good balance does not harm roleplay, it enhances it as it decouples worries about being good enough with picking what you want to play.
When you don't do anything as well as, or better than, any other class? That's kind of lousey. It's fine if you want to be the universal second stringer, but, personally, that's not fun.Not doing the most damage is not a 'serious weakness'.
Again it is a different way to play the class.It's like someone saying you can't play a fighter any way besides as an archer fighter because the archer fighter is the only way to play because it does the most damage.
I firmly believe in the solarian generalist. You are an all-rounder, filling holes and disrupting the enemy. Everyone else in the party has various A-class tools. You always bring the B-class tool for the right job rather than trying to make an A-class tool work for the wrong job.
Solarians are basically full BAB partial casters with skill boost.
There are serious weaknesses in your build in terms of offense.** spoiler omitted **
1. I make full use of sidereal influence
2. Race boost saves, which just means I didn't need to grab improved x feats earlier and for every save.
3. You see I clearly don't care about plasma sheathe
4. I value movement highly on Solarians so they can not generate soft cover for the enemy or swoop into flanking positions
5. Yes, I did calculate action economy for what revelations I chose. It influences my picks heavily.
6. Solarians want to pump every stat. Never increase for a mere +1. Even heavy armor solarians need the Dex.
Like the last time we talked about this, personal upgrades aren't included in the build. It's not 18 vs 26 str it's 24 vs 26 str.
Talking about combat is actually very important in terms of both Starfinder and Pathfinder because they are combat games. Yes they are called roleplaying games but there is no mechanic in the rules that rewards roleplaying, it's not part of the default reward structure. I could run two homebrew games using only the rules provided, one with 5 fully fleshed out characters with backstories and motivations, the other with just the character sheets and no story. At the end of those two sessions, even if the roleplaying was phenomenal in the first session, by the base rules of the game both parties will have the exact same amount of experience. The other aspects of the game may be valuable to certain groups, but the rules value the combat effectiveness so building effective characters is very much important. I'll add that I am someone that values roleplaying and story over mechanics and often introduces reward structures for good character moments, but if we're speaking in terms of the rules of the game, roleplaying and story has no actual effect. With all that being said, I think both builds have their own uses and a utility build can be mechanically effective provided the circumstances are right, but in most cases will lose out to a damage focused build. This will likely change in the future as more Solarian revelations are released, but as it stands the damage focused build is probably gonna feel more satisfying to play in general since CC is far more situational and there may be a lot of encounters where you just aren't useful. As for the save issues, I would like to see how it feels to play, but a buff from a revelation may be useful down the line.
It's a roleplaying game and not a combat game.You might want to tell that to the Soldier, who is capable of nothing but combat class-wise.
Anyway: Good balance does not harm roleplay, it enhances it as it decouples worries about being good enough with picking what you want to play.
In an RPG you really should not need to worry about picking what to want to play. It is more fun to play some one who is not a min/max-ed combat machine.
I am sure that the classes in Starfinder are balanced but it seems that some players are unable to see this because they might have overlooked something.
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In an RPG you really should not need to worry about picking what to want to play. It is more fun to play some one who is not a min/max-ed combat machine.
I am sure that the classes in Starfinder are balanced but it seems that some players are unable to see this because they might have overlooked something.
No, you shouldn't need to worry about it which is WHY balance is very important. A system where people don't need to worry about balance means that people can pick whatever they want.
And while I'm liking Starfinder and it's a vast step up from Pathfinder and 3.5 on that front, I'm not sure I'd say it's balanced. It's got some issues to work out (And support will hopefully help them).
Charisma is a core example of it not really being balanced. Charisma, as a stat, does nothing outside of skills. Other stats get skills AND a secondary effect. Pathfinder also has that issue, which is why stuff like a Paladin's Divine Grace often turn up. An ability powerful enough you'd not give it to any other stat but Charisma's innate weakness makes it alright.
Con is the other sad stat, yeah. It could have done with a skill or two.
MEANWHILE, LOOKING AT YOU DEXTERITY. YOU ARE A VERY OVERLOADED STAT.
Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.
Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
Skills
All of them work nicely together without major overlap.
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Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.
Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
SkillsAll of them work nicely together without major overlap.
Don't forget Operative Weapon attack and damage.
At what point do Operative's get to add Dex to damage?
Yeah, though Strength overlaps with itself a lot. As melee damage and accuracy/thrown damage and accuracy don't tend to occur at the same time.
Initative
KAC
EAC
Ranged Weapons Attacks
Ref Saves
SkillsAll of them work nicely together without major overlap.
Don't forget Operative Weapon attack and damage.
Only attack.
Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?
Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.
Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.
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Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?
Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.
Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.
...you keep missing the point. That's why game balance is very important, to ALLOW such choices without compromising the characters effectiveness.
Do you really think that the protagonists in the novels are always the perfect builds you are looking for?
Take a look at all those NPCs or even the iconics. None of them is really perfect.
Imperfect characters are much more fun. If I create a character I do not want to min/max them to make them perfect for a certain role. No, I try to set their stats so that they reflect the character concept, even if that means that they are far from perfect.
I have seen this argument so many times I cringe. This is like the guy who plays an int 14 wizard. It can be fun if everyone else is playing similar stat characters. But in the same party you have a Cha 18 sorcerer, that wizard is going to feel kinda left out.
The solarian class IS balanced. It is also an EXPERT's class. It can do many many things, but many of it's abilities are situational. A solarian CAN be very strong. It can also be very weak if the player does not understand the class and it's abilities. Poor choices can make any class less effective, but because many of the solarian's abilities ARE situational if a player makes poor choices the solarian will underperform. However if a player makes good choices and understands how to use those abilities to greatest effect a solarian can be just as impactful if not more impactful to a team than another class.
If the designers were to buff the solarian class you will make it easier to make an impactful character dispite poor choices. However you will also make the class more powerful than others in the hands of an expert which would lead to imbalance.
If you as a player cannot make use of the situational abilities whith the solarian class offers that's fine. Pick a different class. It does not mean that the class is imbalanced. It is similar to being a wizard. Often I know GMs will ask new players to not play a wizard as their first character because it is a complicated role with many choices to be made, some of which are not good. New players often play a wizard poorly, contribute little to the party, and get frustrated. However in the hands of an expert the wizard was brokenly powerful.
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I think another "issue" with the Solarian is a side effect of how situational a lot of its stuff is: It's one of those classes where you have to work with the GM so your stuff will ever actually come up. Like, say you took Soul Forge at 10 to deal with the Saves issues. Now say you've just turned level 15, and in those 5 levels not once has Curses, Disease, Drugs, Poison, or any of the conditions it cures when attuned actually comes up. Gonna feel bad. Or heck, even more basic than that: You take Stellar Rush, because you were on this site and read how amazing it is, but you're forever fighting in tight corridors where setting up a charge lane is basically impossible, even as a Standard. Or you took Gravity Anchor, but enemies never bother using Combat Maneuvers. I think you get my gist. Like, situational abilities can be great... if the situation comes up.
Now granted, this is probably an issue with dang near everyone (like, sucks to be an Envoy when every enemy's immune to mind-affecting and/or language dependent) but when the situational abilities are one of the selling points of the class, and they are incredibly situational sometimes... yeah. It's honestly no wonder people go for the always-useful abilities.
Edit: a word here, a letter there.
I think another "issue" with the Solarian is a side effect of how situational a lot of its stuff is: It's one of those classes where you have to work with the GM so your stuff will ever actually come up. Like, say you took Soul Forge at 10 to deal with the Saves issues. Now say you've just turned level 15, and in those 5 levels not once has Curses, Disease, Drugs, Poison, or any of the conditions it cures when attuned actually comes up. Gonna feel bad. Or heck, even more basic than that: You take Stellar Rush, because you were on this site and read how amazing it is, but you're forever fighting in tight corridors where setting up a charge lane is basically impossible, even as a Standard. Or you took Gravity Anchor, but enemies never bother using Combat Maneuvers. I think you get my gist. Like, situational abilities can be great... if the situation comes up.
Now granted, this is probably an issue with dang near everyone (like, sucks to be an Envoy when every enemy's immune to mind-affecting and/or language dependent) but when the situational abilities are one of the selling points of the class, and they are incredibly situational sometimes... yeah. It's honestly no wonder people go for the always-useful abilities.
There is some truth to this sentiment. There ARE choices that for a solarian that are good in pretty much any situation , but it is easy to preclude your capability to use those. For instance plasma sheathe is a great broadly applicable ability, unless you build your character around shooting people instead of hitting them. Dark mater is great, DR is wonderful in all combat situations, but if you plan on being in solar mode you're out of luck. The class ITSELF makes broadly applicable abilities INTO situational ones, which means that you really have to know what you are doing to get the most out of it.
It feels very much like a less overpowered melee wizard to me because you need to have a good understanding of how your abilities and those of your opponent will all interact, or you will suffer. BUT if you do know what you are doing you can turn into a beam of light or make portals only your team can use, or create a 1 way wall for your team, and do so every combat all day. That is powerful, and used well is HUGELY impactful, even if the numbers are harder to quantify that just DPR.
I agree the problem isn't as bad as it was in Pathfinder with the wizard, I'm just trying to illustrate the point and many players know and understand the issues with the Pathfinder wizard. So it is a good example of a similar, if more extreme problem.
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Talking about combat is actually very important in terms of both Starfinder and Pathfinder because they are combat games. Yes they are called roleplaying games but there is no mechanic in the rules that rewards roleplaying, it's not part of the default reward structure. I could run two homebrew games using only the rules provided, one with 5 fully fleshed out characters with backstories and motivations, the other with just the character sheets and no story. At the end of those two sessions, even if the roleplaying was phenomenal in the first session, by the base rules of the game both parties will have the exact same amount of experience. The other aspects of the game may be valuable to certain groups, but the rules value the combat effectiveness so building effective characters is very much important. I'll add that I am someone that values roleplaying and story over mechanics and often introduces reward structures for good character moments, but if we're speaking in terms of the rules of the game, roleplaying and story has no actual effect. With all that being said, I think both builds have their own uses and a utility build can be mechanically effective provided the circumstances are right, but in most cases will lose out to a damage focused build. This will likely change in the future as more Solarian revelations are released, but as it stands the damage focused build is probably gonna feel more satisfying to play in general since CC is far more situational and there may be a lot of encounters where you just aren't useful. As for the save issues, I would like to see how it feels to play, but a buff from a revelation may be useful down the line.
I can write a adventure with nothing but skill checks and no combat and still give out experience points with rules as written. Your point is not borne out by the facts.
Some of these arguments have me really curious. I think imma sit down over the next few evenings and put together a level 10 character of each class with a fairly holisitc build/world interaction approach and then see how each of them would perform in combat and out, and what they trade from one to be good in the ither, and hipefully get a better idea of whether or not the tradeoffs are worth it for each class