I’d say this is one of those cases where if the PC decides to become a space lich willingly, that character leaves the player’s control and becomes a villain for the rest of the campaign.
Starfinder Design Lead
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Once a GM decided to allow a PC to become a necrovite, the GM is going to have to make a lot of ad hoc decisions about how that works.
That's fine, and I wish the GM and players of such games nothing but fine times, but there's not like to be a definitive answer.
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Once a GM decided to allow a PC to become a necrovite, the GM is going to have to make a lot of ad hoc decisions about how that works.
That's fine, and I wish the GM and players of such games nothing but fine times, but there's not like to be a definitive answer.
I am disappointed in that response.
Lichdom is a fleshed out template in Pathfinder. I do not see how handwaving these rules has improved Starfinder.
Once a GM decided to allow a PC to become a necrovite, the GM is going to have to make a lot of ad hoc decisions about how that works.
That's fine, and I wish the GM and players of such games nothing but fine times, but there's not like to be a definitive answer.
I am disappointed in that response.
Lichdom is a fleshed out template in Pathfinder. I do not see how handwaving these rules has improved Starfinder.
You’re not supposed to apply templates to PCs in Pathfinder either. They’re strictly a monster thing.
You’re not supposed to apply templates to PCs in Pathfinder either. They’re strictly a monster thing.
It's rather absurd of you to assume that no one has appreciated fleshed out rules for the eventuality a PC becomes a lich.
I mean, I guess if you want to you can import Occult Ritual rules in from Pathfinder, and along with it the Lich Transformation Occult Ritual.
And there you go. Rules for turning a PC into a lich.
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I was never a fan of the "NPCs can do things PCs can't, all other things being equal," method of game design. Totally kills immersion and suspension of disbelief.
I was never a fan of the "NPCs can do things PCs can't, all other things being equal," method of game design. Totally kills immersion and suspension of disbelief.
Yes, exactly.
For understandable reasons it was decided that the NPCs and monsters for SF should have totally different rules from PCs - and it is extremely well done, mathematically! - but it really sucks for me, because it kills the immersion that I feel when I GM. I can't help but be aware of the gameist nature of what it is that I'm running. It was one of my pet peeves with 4E, too.
Even if we went with something like that, I'd much prefer it to have the same "gameist" approach for both PCs and monsters, that is either use the exact same patterns, or the exact same kinds of patterns - it would actually increase the internal consistency. As it is... eh.
It's very well made (the precision with which it is put together is really impressive), but it's just not something I like.
I mean, I guess if you want to you can import Occult Ritual rules in from Pathfinder, and along with it the Lich Transformation Occult Ritual.
And there you go. Rules for turning a PC into a lich.
Unfortunately, this doesn't quite work for the necrovite or Starfinder, as it uses some things that just don't exist anymore (sorry, closest I can get to; scroll down to "Eternal Apotheosis") and doesn't mesh at all with anything printed in SF about necrovite.
Eternal Apotheosis
Source PCS:OR
School necromancy [evil]; Level 9
Casting Time 9 hours
Components V, S, M (incense made from ground-up bits of undead creatures), F (phylactery worth at least 120,000 gp), SC (at least 1, up to 21; see text)Skill Checks Knowledge (arcana) DC 34, 3 successes; Knowledge (religion) DC 34, 3 successes; Spellcraft DC 34, 3 successes
Range primary caster
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noBacklash All secondary casters take 20d6 points of damage. Those slain are reduced to dust.
Failure The primary caster becomes a forsaken lich, doomed to inevitable destruction in 1d10 days.EFFECT
The depraved path to becoming a lich is a deeply personal experience for those who dare tread it. All spellcasters seeking such a goal must spend months, and more frequently years, gathering eldritch knowledge and conducting fell experiments to research the myriad routes to undeath. Even then, it is exceedingly rare for two liches to have achieved immortality in the exact same way, although their motivations—incredible power without the limitations of a mortal body—are often quite similar.
This ritual represents just one way some liches have transferred their souls into phylacteries. Other rituals tied to lichdom involve bargains or liaisons with evil outsiders, caster-created alchemical tinctures infused with the energy of loved ones’ souls, and other such trying necessities. Although heinously evil, the eternal apotheosis occult ritual is perhaps the most direct way to achieve lichdom.
The primary caster must begin this incantation at dusk.
The ritual must be performed in a place of significance to the caster and is typically the site where she began her descent into evil, or a site where she committed a great atrocity. Unlike other occult rituals, the secondary casters are simply fodder for the necromantic energies unleashed by the aspiring lich; they do not contribute to the ritual beyond taking the damage of the ritual’s backlash. Unlike with normal occult rituals, these secondary casters do not need to be willing participants, but they do need to be within close range (25 feet + 2 feet per character level of the primary caster) of the primary caster for the duration of the ritual. For every seven secondary casters, the ritual’s level is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 6th level), the casting time is reduced by 1 hour, and the number of skill checks required decreases by one.
When reducing the ritual’s level in this manner, the primary caster can choose which check or checks are eliminated. The primary caster also receives a +1 bonus on the required skill checks for every four secondary casters, as normal.
Casting this ritual funnels raw and very painful necromantic energy through the primary caster, possibly eviscerating all of the secondary casters in the process. Successful completion of the ritual allows the primary caster to transfer her soul into the phylactery, forever sealing it within the magical receptacle and turning her into a full-fledged lich.
This fails to be the electroencephelon version, not just because it uses skills that are no longer valid (collapsing all skill checks into an undefined question of three or nine checks for the mysticism skill - it seems like it's nine, though, based on generic rules) and it has the [evil] tag, something that is conspicuously absent in SF Core, making it unlikely to be a part of this game. The pricing is entirely wrong, and the price point makes it impossible until 12th level, at which point you have to spend the vast amount of your credits to make it happen - entirely wrong for the rules given up above about electroencephalon.
Nod a bad start, though! Could use adaptation, I suppose, though it'd have to be heavy adaptation to make it work in SF.
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I was never a fan of the "NPCs can do things PCs can't, all other things being equal," method of game design. Totally kills immersion and suspension of disbelief.
I'm on that other side of that argument. NPCs are a literary device to me and that's all I really want with that. YMMV.
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I'm on that other side of that argument. NPCs are a literary device to me and that's all I really want with that. YMMV.
From a player's standpoint, beating an arbitrary literary device isn't nearly as exciting or awesome as beating a non-player character that uses the same (or similar) abilities/features/tools that I do.
It's the difference between earning a victory, and basically getting a victory only because the GM said so.
I'm on that other side of that argument. NPCs are a literary device to me and that's all I really want with that. YMMV.From a player's standpoint, beating an arbitrary literary device isn't nearly as exciting or awesome as beating a non-player character that uses the same (or similar) abilities/features/tools that I do.
It's the difference between earning a victory, and basically getting a victory only because the GM said so.
From some players’ perspective, you mean. I don’t care either way if the enemies are built using PC rules or not. I would actually find it kind odd if the players demanded to know the exact feat and skill point distributions of every enemy they faced.
In the next book they have coming out, the name of which I can't remember, there are supposed to be rules for undead PCs. Until then.. meh.
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I'm more confused by the people who claim PF monsters are constructed with the same rules as PCs. They never were. Monsters had their own core stat arrays based on type, their own stack of generic special rules, and a bunch of pure fiat powers that they got by whimsy of the designer (aka all other special abilities at the bottom of the block).
There's nothing stopping a GM from having a monster use strength as a primary casting attribute (something more or less unattainable for PCs) other taking a few moments to pencil in an ability at the bottom of the block saying it can.
Except that they kind of were. Monster racial hit dice functioned almost exactly like class levels, with their own BAB, HD, saves, skills, and other abilities. Instead of class features, you had a slew of racial abilities.
If a GM let me play that monstrous race, I would follow all of the same rules as an NPC monster of that race that took NPC class levels (with very few exceptions, such as gear).
If I wasn't playing that monstrous race, then it made internal logical sense (in-game and out) that I likely wouldn't have ready access to that monster's abilities.
It's all about the immersion,the believability.
4E was REALLY bad at it, having dragonborn PCs who could never fly naturally, whereas dragonborn NPCs often did have the ability to fly naturally. It was seriously obnoxious!
The rules don't have to exactly match. I'm totally fine with NPCs and monsters using a simplified system that makes a GM's life easier, but what a PC can do and what an NPC can do in the game world (with all other things--such as race, resources, etc.--being the same) should generally be consistently the same.
Right now we literally have a playable alien race that can't talk and relies on telepathy to communicate, but the PC version of said race doesn't gain telepathy!
Please explain that one to me. How would that not possibly effect your ability to immerse yourself in such a character role?
EDIT: You know what? Let's just say I agree with RD.
Somehow, this post got left for days and was ninja'd so very hard, that I'mma leave it. XD
RD has basically said all the things I would have anyway. :D