| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Am I the only one who feels odd saying that a CE race would have laws, and discussing something to potentially be illegal?
I'm not sure how it is in Pathfinder, but in D&D, it always seemed to me that Drow were personally CE, but their society itself was LE. They had laws, traditions, rules, lineages, etc. But also had an unwritten rule of "So long as you don't get caught, anything goes."
This is what allowed them to function as such a coherent force against outsiders, but at the same time holding no trust for their own.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I the only one who feels odd saying that a CE race would have laws, and discussing something to potentially be illegal?I'm not sure how it is in Pathfinder, but in D&D, it always seemed to me that Drow were personally CE, but their society itself was LE. They had laws, traditions, rules, lineages, etc. But also had an unwritten rule of "So long as you don't get caught, anything goes."
This is what allowed them to function as such a coherent force against outsiders, but at the same time holding no trust for their own.
Well, in Drow of the Underdark it notes that drow are a highly chaotic, individualsitic people, but the monster manual gave drow as usually neutral evil. They employ few true laws, but are bound by tradition and code and follow them out of fear. A lone drow is likel yt odrift towards chaos but, in spite of their rivalry with one another, multiple drow in a community forces them into a level of cooperation beyond what truly chaotic individuals would maintain.
Then again, that is a 3.5 source. If that somewhat holds true though, while they are a force that is quick to deal with infighting, they have a level of harmony unseen in most CE races.
To carry as far as Starfinder, as far as the.. gender bending elixer is concerned.. I'd be willing to bet it is potentially accessable on the Drow homeworld, but because of social pressures most males do not take it, and those that do constantly have to work to make sure they are not found out or otherwise face a fate far worse than having remained male, perhaps worse than slavery or execution: Becoming drider.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why am I suddenly seeing a tier of middle-management that were sold the Elixir and all the promises of power, but those that fail end up in bad spots, and the rest can't get past the TERFD ceiling, though they keep trying?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why am I suddenly seeing a tier of middle-management that were sold the Elixir and all the promises of power, but those that fail end up in bad spots, and the rest can't get past the TERFD ceiling, though they keep trying?
I honestly think that’s probably how it works. Severe punishments ain’t got NOTHING on social stigma!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Negative. Sexism is sexism. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.If one isn't okay, the other isn't okay. Period.
Well, you said "full stop" and "period" (twice) and ended the discussion.
I am crushed by the weight of your logic. You win.
I bet he'll still try to shoehorn in another last word.
Well, you said "full stop" and "period" (twice) and ended the discussion.
I am crushed by the weight of your logic. You win.I bet he'll still try to shoehorn in another last word.Congratulations. You two have reached the point of actually mocking someone for suggesting that sexism is not a good thing.
Well, it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. We are here discussing sexism in the context of a malevolent race occupying a space fantasy RPG that is the sequel setting to a standard fantasy RPG, brought in from older RPGs.. all of which hinge upon racism (all members of X race behave in Y fashion and therefore are friends/enemies).
So.. That whether it, an evil thing, aught to be still part of a society that is defined as evil.. thousands of years in the future.
So, back on the main subject at hand: I still think turning transgender drow into driders makes sense in the context of their society, what do you think?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, you said "full stop" and "period" (twice) and ended the discussion.
I am crushed by the weight of your logic. You win.I bet he'll still try to shoehorn in another last word.Congratulations. You two have reached the point of actually mocking someone for suggesting that sexism is not a good thing.
No, for the record, I'm mocking them for attempting to close off all discussion beyond their narrow, rigidly-defined self-experience. I'd bet folding money they're a guy, probably a white one too, and uses that as a cornerstone to form their viewpoint.
---
I'm pretty sure thejeff wasn't mocking, but was just exasperated after trying to have a good faith discussion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And even more creepily, it suggests they're right. From the suggestions above, most of these "transwomen Drow", wouldn't actually be trans, but would be men using the serum to pose as women for the social advantages. The presence of which completely screws any actual transDrow, btw.
Not an approach I'm really comfortable taking.
Well, there is very little that people won't do to stop being oppressed.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some exasperation, some mocking for claiming that sexism against men is remotely equivalent to sexism against women - or, since the original "swap the subject" argument is common for things other than sexism, that any kind of prejudice is just as bad reversed.
...that's a bit of a slippery slope, to treat abuse to one gender as 'More alright' than the other. I'd go more with the statement 'Sexism against either gender is intolerable' than trying to quantify if one sexism is worse than another when that is something that is very hard to measure in a quantifiable manner (As it exists on both personal and societal levels and needs to be examined on both.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Drow look for any excuse to maim, subjugate, or kill (et al) their enemies. They may or may not use law, gender, or circumstance as excuses, but aren't particularly beholden to any rule other than the rule of power.
They are ancient sociopaths, not rampaging homicidal maniacs (i.e. Orcs), and they have excellent mental stats (even more so in their initial incarnation). They know that their power (or perceived power) relies on the Drow "brand" remaining strong (as well as their House & personal brands). They aren't necessarily loyal to anything except themselves, but some things are seen as extensions of themselves (even if only by others they wish to exploit).
Thinking in longer terms, they know to turn their (and their allies') wickedness upon non-Drow. Infighting (usually) hurts themselves, so while I think they're a powder keg, I think they know it too and don't want to explode unless of course there's assured power to be gained from that (and they don't trust assurances much).
As for Drow women, because of dimorphic superiority, they gained the upper hand in Drow society. Drow women would want to keep the "Drow women" brand superior, even if said dimorphic traits have faded away. Oddly, this could lead to different rules:
1. If the superiority is tied to a gender essence (i.e. some religious notion of being bequeathed with superiority, which I could see with Lolth) then switching genders would meet vicious resistance. Since Golarion Drow are tied to demons of all genders, I don't think the non-female power-that-be behind the powers-that-be would bother to support this.
2. If the superiority relies on social success of women (perhaps a self-fulfilling societal POV), then that might lead to the opposite result, where inferior (or outmaneuvered) women are stripped of womanhood and superior men are elevated (further reinforcing that POV). Since it's the powerful making the rules which in turn benefit the powerful (of either initial gender) this would seem a likely candidate. Weak get pushed down & strong claw upward when it suits the interests of the other strong=feasible CE society.
3. If the superiority relied wholly on the dimorphism, then due to lack of societal integrity, observance, or consistency, matriarchal views might fade alongside the physical shift.
4. Couples... This makes it problematic, not because of love, but because of perceived mutual power of the couple and their lineage. (The 2nd or 3rd most powerful Drow in Greyhawk was Eclavdra's male lover, which didn't necessarily translate to actual social power for him outside of their House except through boosting her. He was fiercely loyal to her likely because his success relied on her.)
Living so long allows for many generations of children to groom so as to strengthen the family brand (or quietly cull should they falter). SF technology allows for switching genders, meaning the two most powerful women can breed without men at all. A House might even be inclined to have all their worthwhile members be women, maybe so as to be impregnated by those with the best genes. They might not even want to have their weakest members to be men because then they might pass on those weaker genes. Sterilization may be normal among the lesser Drow, with maybe even a neutered genderless gender coming into being. Given the Drow's knowledge of bioengineering (etc) & controlling nature, that could be possible. Also, I'd suspect eugenics would be a major deal with such evil folk. In such a place, people might routinely change genders in order to maximize effective coupling (to strengthen one's House, hence oneself).
But would pregnancy make one vulnerable? (In Faerun, Drow women only became pregnant because it was orgasmic.) What gender would one aim for before knowing the power of the child? That's assuming dimorphism is gone. If it isn't then most every child would be female, and being reduced to a male (and likely a sterilized one) would be a severe social penalty.
And this is just among themselves. I can't imagine the horrific experimentation they'd perform on their staff, slaves, & the lineage thereof. Expect super-soldier Trolls & Bugbears, maybe even Borg-like.
The possibilities keep expanding...
Cheers
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In some kind of abstract, theoretical sense, sure. In the real world, where such things are often strongly one way it doesn't make sense to treat them as equal.
Yes it does, by treating both of them as utterly intolerable. As to do less than that is to undersell the effects it can have on people and to trivialise one person's suffering because it's not considered 'As important' as someone else's.
Yes, sexism is more common of an issue for women than men. That does not, however, make it morally worse as it's morally appalling in both cases.
And I imagine there is some sexism against women in drow society, depending on what they want to do. The wizarding part of it was generally seen as men's work (In the old D&D novels I've read at least) because it's less prestigious than being a cleric. So any woman who'd rather learn arcane magic rather than divine is likely seen as degrading herself or lowering herself to the work of lessers.
I wonder how that works in Starfinder when the arcane/divine split doesn't exist any more. It's likely been discarded.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some exasperation, some mocking for claiming that sexism against men is remotely equivalent to sexism against women - or, since the original "swap the subject" argument is common for things other than sexism, that any kind of prejudice is just as bad reversed....that's a bit of a slippery slope, to treat abuse to one gender as 'More alright' than the other. I'd go more with the statement 'Sexism against either gender is intolerable' than trying to quantify if one sexism is worse than another when that is something that is very hard to measure in a quantifiable manner (As it exists on both personal and societal levels and needs to be examined on both.)In some kind of abstract, theoretical sense, sure. In the real world, where such things are often strongly one way it doesn't make sense to treat them as equal.
Or, to bring this back to topic, shall we consider sexism against women in Drow society?
So if one group does it, it is very bad, but if the other group does it it is not so bad. I hope you do not use that logic on other stuff.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually there are precedence in Golarion of instilled patriarchy in Taldor. Taldor has never had a ruling queen, due to patriarchal rules and that is part of the plot in the upcoming AP line, where the party is trying to place Stavin's daughter on the throne.
The Land of the Linnorm Kings is another example. While it's not technically impossible for Astrid to become the first female Linnorm King, she's apparently the first one in 10,000 years, so there's definitely a trend towards dudes-being-kings.
All I want is some balance. For every 'evil woman in power' like Abrogail Thrune or 'Harlot-Queen' Arazni or Witch-Queen Whatshername of Irrisen, give me someone like Queen Galfrey in Mendev or the Elf-Queen whose name I also forget (who may or may not be good, but is at least not explicitly evil). I'm less comfortable with a setting if women rulers are automatically evil (or Drow, or both), because it creates the impression that women ruling over men is unnatural or 'bad' somehow. I'm just as not-thrilled by settings like the Forgotten Realms slowly turned into, where any good *male* ruler (like Azoun of Cormyr) seemed to get shooed off the stage and replaced by a woman ruler (and any new good rulers ended up being people like Alustriel, until the setting seemed pretty lopsided and you could tell the alignment of a nation by the gender of it's ruler).
Here is the other issue, though, and I apologize, because it's very dark, but: if the drow are seeking to boost their numbers, they're going to want to transition more men into women. Females are the bottleneck of a biped mammal: we can only have so many babies and that's strictly limited by women more than men. (This makes men more expendable, and is one of the theories of why patriarchies began.)
In order to rapidly boost population, then, you're going to need more female creatures. What's more, you don't strictly need males - between artificial insimination, basic cloning techniques, and similar, there really isn't anything to stop an all-woman population with advanced tech from succeeding and continuing. And, to add to that, there is the serum: make a male into a female, get more child-bearing options - as alluded to, above, a "brief" swap to make a child before reversion could be a thing.
This is an extremely dark subject, so I will stop elaborating here, but it's worth noting.
As an aside, how's Ardad Lili's religion doing among the drow, I wonder...?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is the other issue, though, and I apologize, because it's very dark, but: if the drow are seeking to boost their numbers, they're going to want to transition more men into women.
I see the dark elves as being a bit too elitist to be willing to embrace that sort of thing. Someone not born female might be seen as unworthy of being granted that status. They can always use in vitro selection techniques (or cloning) to just make more female babies if they want, but seem like they would want a decent number of males as well, simply to handle the labor that the females consider beneath them.
From an 'evil society' perspective, there's no fun in being 'superior,' if you don't have someone to lord it over. The uppers need lowers to wash their floors and beat and abuse. A less evil society might go that route, but I think the nature of the Drow kind of requires them to always have a caste of built-in victims to oppress, whether it be males of their own race, or an entire race of enslaved people to serve as second-class citizens.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd think just growing zygotes in incubation tanks would work better for the drow. They'd have the tech, they could tank grow babies all in centralized facilities with constant medical monitoring, and it'd free up the egg donors/womb-owners to pursue their careers with minimal downtime. Using unwilling drow women -- cis and serum-made -- means diverting much more resources toward protecting the womb-host and fetus from harm.
If they need drow eggs for zygote production, they could just pay for donors. A cash-desperate male drow could use the serum, get paid for egg-harvesting, and serum back when done. It could even be a requirement for social advancement/citizenship.
Edit: Lower caste/social standing drow will likely still be needed as mercs, gun-fodder, medical testing, organ donation, and in jobs unsuitable for "more valuable" robots. I could see corporate drow producing/farming lower class drow slaves/servants as product, grown/raised/educated/conditioned to guaranteed quality standards.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hell, drow society might even consider banning conventional biological reproduction without an expensive permit/license. It wouldn't stop the dirt poor from making babies the old fashioned way, but it could be another level of control keeping the lower caste/class drow down. Plus, they could screen those zygotes for less desirable genetic traits/tendencies to better create a more controllable lower class who might be less likely to rise up against the upper classes. They are on a distant, harsh world with finite resources, so "insuring the welfare of the drow race" could be their excuse.
Edit: This all pretty evil stuff, but drow are typically pretty creative in evilness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see the dark elves as being a bit too elitist to be willing to embrace that sort of thing. Someone not born female might be seen as unworthy of being granted that status.
I could imagine it being publicly frowned upon, but also likely something practiced not entirely rarely behind closed doors. A family looking to 'trade up' on what they perceive as an inferior child by coercing them to take the serum when they're old enough. An unattached drow looking for a societal leg up with a serum and a falsified identity (which shouldn't be too hard given the anarchic nature of their society).
From an 'evil society' perspective, there's no fun in being 'superior,' if you don't have someone to lord it over. The uppers need lowers to wash their floors and beat and abuse. A less evil society might go that route, but I think the nature of the Drow kind of requires them to always have a caste of built-in victims to oppress, whether it be males of their own race, or an entire race of enslaved people to serve as second-class citizens.
The drow already have that in an actual social underclass and non-drow races which are all considered second class by definition.Makes it feel a little redundant, but I've already said my piece there.
As for Drow women, because of dimorphic superiority, they gained the upper hand in Drow society.
I don't think that's actually correct. Other than that some interesting thoughts. Worth noting the serum doesn't work on unwilling targets so some of the ideas wouldn't apply.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just print birth sex on the ID card.
"Original woman".
Solved.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Worth noting the serum doesn't work on unwilling targets so some of the ideas wouldn't apply.
True, but they only have to be willing at the time they take the serum. If the drow engineer their society correctly and push the right propaganda, they can be pretty persuasive in convincing the average Joe & Josette Drow to do what the drow-powers-that-be want them to do. Not just serum-shifting, but volunteering for merc service or flesh-crafting/other bio-enhancement... if they've maintained an evil society for tens of thousands of years keeping the under classes in line (more or less), then they ought to be pretty experienced by now. Offer up the right carrots and they don't need to use sticks... hell, they could convince the under class to fight/compete over a limited number of sticks. And participating in "societally-beneficial" programs could be sold as the key to betterment for themselves and their family... the differences between just being a consumer, a stock-holder, or a preferred stock-holder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just print birth sex on the ID card.
"Original woman".
Solved.
Why would the upper class drow matriarchy want to share power with any lower class/commoner women, regardless of what is on the birth certificates? Keeping the drow matriarchy in power also means holding down the middle and lower/commoner women too. Perhaps no drow possesses citizenship/stockholder status at birth, and such membership (and the societal mobility that comes with it) must be earned (or bought, which is easy enough for the matriarchy)? Keep the middle & lower classes, and the males & females, fighting amongst themselves for the crumbs, and they'll be too busy wondering who has all the cookies.
