So, let's talk about the new Drow...


General Discussion

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VampByDay wrote:
Cole Deschain wrote:
I kinda preferred the former inhabitants of Apostae, and their status as members of the Pact Worlds kinda makes for a head-scratcher, but if the elves are going to be isolationist jerkwads, having the drow as accepted commerce partners is kind of fun.

Remember, Drow are very self-centered and really concerned with making themselves strong and ensuring their survival. They have a lot of other stuff too, but push comes to shove, for them survival is number one. And there is no way the Drow could stand up to the Vesk or the swarm on their own, so having a defense pact makes sense. I'm sure none of them LIKE it, but like the Eoxians, politics makes strange bedfellows.

As for open trade? Well again, they gotta keep the drow empire strong. And as I understand it, Apostate has few natural resources. So if you need thruster fuel, or drift fuel, or natural resources for manufacturing UPBs you are going to have to trade for that stuff. I am sure they don't like it, but what is more drow, grudgingly working with your enemies, or cutting yourself off from the outside universe and letting everyone pass you by recourse-wise and technology wise?

Don't forget that, to some extent, the drow's situation in Apostae is actually an improvement over the prior status quo. They basically have an entire planet mostly to themselves, or at least under their dominion. That's a lot more resources, and a lot fewer neighbors and enemies, than when they lived underground on Golarion. And in exchange for a few relatively minor concessions, they get interplanetary diplomatic recognition, to boot, which keeps even more "problems" away than their remoteness does.

Given that this is a fairly safe and secure position, I can entirely see them viewing the ability to spit in the face of the Castrovelian elves as an irresistible bonus.


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So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.


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captain yesterday wrote:
I wonder what would happen if I show up to a game with a Drow Solarian named Drizz't Du'Skywalker.
captain yesterday wrote:

Yes, my assumption is I would be the first to die.

But, that's why you bring a backup.

Pulls out his Contemplative Technomancer named Orko.

Torbyne wrote:
What a curious game you are playing at Captain Yesterday, the only winning move is not to play.
Tira'Mari-Sue Tyler-D'oh!Durden wrote:
{next in line for airlock} GENIUS!

This feels like a relevant link.

captain yesterday wrote:
Pulls out his Contemplative Technomancer named Orko.

Only if you give him red hat and robes and a purple scarf. Otherwise I'm not playing with you.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Of course, otherwise it just wouldn't be Orko.

Grand Lodge

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Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.

>.>


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I'm still absorbing the Setting information in the Core Rulebook so I can then see where drow fit within my version of the Golarion universe. But here are is one initial ideas:

D.R.I.D.E.R (Societal and Genetic Purity Agency)*
Officially D.R.I.D.E.R is a terrorist organisation that holds archaic, long since abandoned, ideals of the drow genetic and cultural superiority over all other races. All known members of D.R.I.D.E.R. have warrants out for their arrest on Apostae and the Drow government rigorously enforces it's extradition treaties within the Pact Worlds so that all members of this terrorist agency can be found and brought to Drow justice. Their crimes include conspiracy to inflict terror, murder for hire, mass murder and destruction of property.

Unofficially D.R.I.D.E.R. is the intelligence arm of the Drow government. All missions they carry out is at the behest and direction of the drow government. They use the extradition treaties to secure their assets and in cases of gross incompetence they do carry out quick trials and then perform public executions to keep up the appearance of D.R.I.D.E.R. being a terrorist organisation.

All members of D.R.I.D.E.R have the ability to transform into an actual drider as a standard action.

* D.R.I.D.E.R's acronym only works when written in the elven tongue.


Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.

It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.


HWalsh wrote:
Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.
It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.

I can imagine the vitriol already if Paizo featured the literal patriarchy in a race with more culture to their name than orcs. Extreme explosions if said race is actually Good overall.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.
It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.
I can imagine the vitriol already if Paizo featured the literal patriarchy in a race with more culture to their name than orcs. Extreme explosions if said race is actually Good overall.

Which is weird. A true matriarchy should be equally as offensive as a true patriarchy. It's just a weird double standard.


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HWalsh wrote:
Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.
It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.

In a world with thousands of races, its shouldn't be weird if at least one race/culture is matriarchal/Patriarchal. And that brings me to the issue of the Lashunta uniqueness that was taken away was taken away. Though I both understand and agree with Paizos choice since they are now a Core race.

My biggest gripe with Drow is the fact that their society makes no sense. Why would anybody trust a bunch of extremely treacherous CE demon-worshippers. They might not deliver the goods after all its in their nature/culture. They would have made more sense as pirates or outlaws rather than arms-dealers or even "regular pact members.


HWalsh wrote:
Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.
It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.

My reply wasn't meant to be serious though it is true I do like the Drow, and how their society works. They make good villains because of this. As for playing Drow I do play a Drow but generally does not stay in the Drow society because I like playing good aligned characters, really doesn't work well in that particular society. Now what I do like with Starfinder is that now you have them reaching out weather it is because beliefs have change or just to spite their elven brethren. Within this new reach out you quite possible could have a Drow corporation that does things for the good of more then just their own. Not all capitalist are evil and I really hate that particular stereotype that seams to be going around.


Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
Malefactor wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
For my home game all I did was bring back the Drugar (the Dwarven version of the Drow) but I made them a male dominated version of the Drow because I felt the game needed a mirror of the same. ]
Eh, I always felt that the "evil patriarchy" counterpart to the drows "evil matriarchy" was the orcs. I mean, if you look at the orc pantheon, only one of their 10 gods is a woman, and that's Dretha, who's pretty much the goddess of being "barefoot and pregnant" (or whatever you call the more barbaric orcish equivalent to that idea). Sure, she doesn't seem happy about it, but she still is. I doubt many drow men like being treated as second class either

And if you think that this is not patriarchalic enough:

In the German RPG "The Dark Eye" orcs do not recognize their female brethen as orcs but as animals bearing orcs...

In the Man-Kzin Wars series you learn that their females were turned into that - they no longer have enough intelligence to think of equality, much less actually try to fight for it. They are basically living incubators and nothing more.


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Erk Ander wrote:


My biggest gripe with Drow is the fact that their society makes no sense. Why would anybody trust a bunch of extremely treacherous CE demon-worshippers. They might not deliver the weapons they claimed they were going to. In my opinion they would have made more sense as pirates or outlaws rather than arms-dealers.

...probably haven't worked in a money-hungry corporation before, right??

Grand Lodge

Erk Ander wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Tigrean wrote:
So far from what I'm reading here in the post, I really like the Drow. I see nothing wrong with have one of the few remaining Matriarchal societies still existing in this setting. Beside some inetersting things can happen when females have such power. Now if you excuse me my Drow Mistress requests me to return to bed.
It's not that they are matriarchal so much as there are no truly patriarchal societies. We have matriarchies and then equal societies. I just dislike the double standard.

In a world with thousands of races, its shouldn't be weird if at least one race/culture is matriarchal/Patriarchal. And that brings me to the issue of the Lashunta uniqueness that was taken away was taken away. Though I both understand and agree with Paizos choice since they are now a Core race.

My biggest gripe with Drow is the fact that their society makes no sense. Why would anybody trust a bunch of extremely treacherous CE demon-worshippers. They might not deliver the goods after all its in their nature/culture. They would have made more sense as pirates or outlaws rather than arms-dealers or even "regular pact members.

Drow are greedy opportunists that enjoy spreading chaos, that more than likely pay quite a bit of money fo public relations, so imho they can be trusted to do what is in their best interest. Add to the fact that worlds that exist outside the pact may have never had Drow of their own in their world, you can see where desperate, or equally sinister people would have no qualms in buying from them.

Scared that the Vesk, or Azlanti might come knocking at your door, the Drow might be the only ones willing to risk coming to your neighborhood to sell you what you need.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Grey Lensman wrote:
Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
Malefactor wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
For my home game all I did was bring back the Drugar (the Dwarven version of the Drow) but I made them a male dominated version of the Drow because I felt the game needed a mirror of the same. ]
Eh, I always felt that the "evil patriarchy" counterpart to the drows "evil matriarchy" was the orcs. I mean, if you look at the orc pantheon, only one of their 10 gods is a woman, and that's Dretha, who's pretty much the goddess of being "barefoot and pregnant" (or whatever you call the more barbaric orcish equivalent to that idea). Sure, she doesn't seem happy about it, but she still is. I doubt many drow men like being treated as second class either

And if you think that this is not patriarchalic enough:

In the German RPG "The Dark Eye" orcs do not recognize their female brethen as orcs but as animals bearing orcs...
In the Man-Kzin Wars series you learn that their females were turned into that - they no longer have enough intelligence to think of equality, much less actually try to fight for it. They are basically living incubators and nothing more.

Just to double down on that, the Kzinti empire is literally called the Patriarchy, their monarch is 'The Patriarch', not 'King', 'Emperor', or similar.

But, like Drow, and Orcs, the Kzinti are evil adversaries.


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Ross Byers wrote:

Just to double down on that, the Kzinti empire is literally called the Patriarchy, their monarch is 'The Patriarch', not 'King', 'Emperor', or similar.

But, like Drow, and Orcs, the Kzinti are evil adversaries.

Except when they are like Chmee, protagonists.

But basically yes.

In theory, I like the idea of exploring different societies with very different gender roles or races with much greater differences between genders and thus essentially biologically enforced gender roles. In practice, in RPGS, for anything that's even potentially a playable race, rather than just an enemy monster, I don't think it works.


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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Sober Caydenite wrote:
Given a technologically advanced, industrialized society, can the drow ignore their light blindness racial quality with a 5-credit pair of Ray-Bans?

Now I’m imagining people giving traveling drow crap for their shades thinking they’re attempting to capitalize on “the cool factor.”

“LOL, look at the drow edgelord trying so hard to look badass and mysterious with their “cool” sunglasses!”

“I HAVE LIGHT BLINDNESS, YOU ASS! THESE ARE PRESCRIPTION!”

(^•_•)-

(^•_•)>⌐■-■

(^⌐■_■)

♫♪ "The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades" ♫♪


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Stupid. The drow are violent and anarchic and don't care about the wellbeing of anybody but themselves, but this doesn't keep them from being functional businesses and diplomatic states. They will just be businesses and states heavily informed by the cultural ideologies at work.

The comparison with Rapture-esque Randians is not a bad one; the key difference being that they have enough common cultural touchstones to keep things functional. Primarily, a cultural paranoia about the universe trying to destroy them. Thus, you get infighting and backbiting and treachery... that very quickly turns off or burns out the moment there's an external threat. A drow scheming and betraying and murdering for their own benefit is Just Good Practice. . . until the moment it starts looking like Selling Out The Drow. Then the offending drow finds that all knives are united against them.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Erk Ander wrote:


My biggest gripe with Drow is the fact that their society makes no sense. Why would anybody trust a bunch of extremely treacherous CE demon-worshippers. They might not deliver the weapons they claimed they were going to. In my opinion they would have made more sense as pirates or outlaws rather than arms-dealers.
...probably haven't worked in a money-hungry corporation before, right??

Ok sure. I am not going to much into real life on. But yes I know there are some horrific cases of this (Guatemal and UFC). But I feel drow are on another lvl. And they worship demons...You are of course right. I may be a little scarred by FR where the drow are umiversally hated.


Metaphysician wrote:

Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Stupid. The drow are violent and anarchic and don't care about the wellbeing of anybody but themselves, but this doesn't keep them from being functional businesses and diplomatic states. They will just be businesses and states heavily informed by the cultural ideologies at work.

The comparison with Rapture-esque Randians is not a bad one; the key difference being that they have enough common cultural touchstones to keep things functional. Primarily, a cultural paranoia about the universe trying to destroy them. Thus, you get infighting and backbiting and treachery... that very quickly turns off or burns out the moment there's an external threat. A drow scheming and betraying and murdering for their own benefit is Just Good Practice. . . until the moment it starts looking like Selling Out The Drow. Then the offending drow finds that all knives are united against them.

FR drow are very much Stupid, being that they are also influenced by Demons who are very often the manifestation of impulsive and murderous. But you have point.


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Lane_S wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
The evils of demon worship are small potatoes compared to the evils of CAPITALISM!!

Not that Communism is any better. Everybody is equal. except managers, party officials, "elected" leaders, etc.

Communism (members of the community share ownership) is not necessarily the same as Socialism (ownership is held by the government/society).

Of course, people can be counted on to mess up pretty much any economic or political organization at some point...


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While matriarchy is as bad as patriarchy, living in a current patriarchy means that some people won't like the fictional ones. There is the issue of reception, as there are plenty of people who will be offended by that.


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Drow are Chaotic Evil not Chaotic Stupid. I have seen far too many people play Chaotic characters as committing random acts with the claim it was the chaotic thing to do. A CE person may well make an excellent business person. As Evil they do what they consider best for themselves. If the business is doing well it is to the persons advantage so they are likely to do things that enhance long term stability and profit. As Chaotic they view laws as something that apply to other people. They would be more likely to conduct industrial espionage/ sabotage. Undermining coworkers who might surpass them would be common. However they would leave effective equals or underlings alone so long as they were not a professional threat and good for the business. they may even help an underling of LG alignment if it was to their advantage.


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MageHunter wrote:
While matriarchy is as bad as patriarchy, living in a current patriarchy means that some people won't like the fictional ones. There is the issue of reception, as there are plenty of people who will be offended by that.

Hold on - We don't live in a patriarchy (at least in the US) at least not what we think of when we talk about the degrees in fantasy. IE where a man *cannot* own property, be a politician, and where only women are in charge.

Yes, many years ago we did, and yes, there still is a ton of inequality (no question) but we can't really compare real world modern patriarchy/matriarchy to fantasy patriarchy/matriarchy.

We've had the old Pathfinder Lashunta - Who were depicted as good - Who were a very sexist society (that is in Pathfinder about as sexist, probably a little moreso than the real world) and we've had the Drow, who are straight up old world sexist.

I just don't like how it always seems to be one sided. The defense is the patriarchy would be offensive. I'm just saying the matriarchy is just as offensive. They're both the same thing - a severe bias based only on a person's sex.


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Squiggit wrote:


You might as well just have an excerpt about ritualistic drow puppy kicking for all that it really adds.

*makes notes for drow coming-of-age-test*


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Sober Caydenite wrote:
Given a technologically advanced, industrialized society, can the drow ignore their light blindness racial quality with a 5-credit pair of Ray-Bans?

Now I’m imagining people giving traveling drow crap for their shades thinking they’re attempting to capitalize on “the cool factor.”

“LOL, look at the drow edgelord trying so hard to look badass and mysterious with their “cool” sunglasses!”

“I HAVE LIGHT BLINDNESS, YOU ASS! THESE ARE PRESCRIPTION!”

<3

Liberty's Edge

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This thread is making me picture the Drow like the Centauri from Babylon 5. Hair and everything. I may have to make this happen in my game.

I'll have them saying things like, "In the old days of the Drow Empire..." and getting confused when anyone questions them on it. (It happened during the Gap, but did it really happen, or did someone just make it up?)

John Lynch 106 wrote:
* D.R.I.D.E.R's acronym only works when written in the elven tongue.

They used elf tongues to write? Savage!

Scarab Sages

So I'm thinking of introducing a drow NPC into my homegame as kind of an antagonistic friend. I'm thinking of making him super arrogant and he fancies himself a smooth operator, but he and the PCs are working toward the same goal, and he's . . . Unsettlingly good at getting the PCs the information they need.


Like some said, this could easilly be seen as the whole matriarchy is a evil thing. Like it cant be done by neutral or good people, it is directly evil like cold blooded murder and those that perpetuate it are all evil beings.

So you could easilly make good forces, like angels and what not, also atk and fight the drows simply because they are a matriarchy, which is again evil, and to change this is actually a good cause, like saving the oppressed males.

In a way, this flips the double standards around, since it directly demonizes a matriarchy society while there is no patriarchy under fire in the game.

Ofc, if this is what the paizo guys will go to or not, only time will tell.


Nox Aeterna wrote:

Like some said, this could easilly be seen as the whole matriarchy is a evil thing. Like it cant be done by neutral or good people, it is directly evil like cold blooded murder and those that perpetuate it are all evil beings.

So you could easilly make good forces, like angels and what not, also atk and fight the drows simply because they are a matriarchy, which is again evil, and to change this is actually a good cause, like saving the oppressed males.

In a way, this flips the double standards around, since it directly demonizes a matriarchy society while there is no patriarchy under fire in the game.

Ofc, if this is what the paizo guys will go to or not, only time will tell.

Well, the matriarchy is evil - directly oppressing half the population. But it's far from the only thing evil about the Drow, so it's not like that will be the sole reason good forces oppose the Drow.

They pretty much revel in their evilness.


At least in a matriarchy the "opressed" half of the population still has certain rights and they are needed (and not as genitors). In a patriarchy the opressed half has often no rights and are often not more than incubators. Thus a patriarchy is always more evil.


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It should be that the Matriarchy has graduated to Corporate Leadership.

Give about two or three hundred years, it'll change. Maybe.

...those poor, poor Drow.


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Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
At least in a matriarchy the "opressed" half of the population still has certain rights and they are needed (and not as genitors). In a patriarchy the opressed half has often no rights and are often not more than incubators. Thus a patriarchy is always more evil.

Not necessarily. A matriarchy is a lot freer to kill off as much of the oppressed male population as they want, as far fewer males than females are needed to keep a society going. What "rights" would a male drow necessarily have in a matriarchy? Every non-reproductive task can be done as easily by females as males.


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Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
At least in a matriarchy the "opressed" half of the population still has certain rights and they are needed (and not as genitors). In a patriarchy the opressed half has often no rights and are often not more than incubators. Thus a patriarchy is always more evil.

Not sure why that's necessarily true. In the real world there are trends that push in that direction, but then the real world doesn't have a lot of history of matriarchies either.


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I appreciate this thread. It's been giving me ideas to help with a character idea I've been throwing around in my head while waiting to get the Alien Archive book. Basically a male Scholar/Envoy Drow who inherrits his mother's influential arms and mining company.

And it would be less scandalous within the company and in drow society if that company has more assets in space and offworld than on Apostae. It would kind of be the progressive but controversial change in Drow society brought on by being an interstellar member of the Pact and being heavily involved with interstellar trade and less a slave to Drow cultural norms.

That's how I'd imagine it would go and be an interesting conflict for the character to prove himself equal to his mother and other matriarch CEO's and come at handling business in a more diverse but still decadent Drow fashion.


thejeff wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:

Like some said, this could easilly be seen as the whole matriarchy is a evil thing. Like it cant be done by neutral or good people, it is directly evil like cold blooded murder and those that perpetuate it are all evil beings.

So you could easilly make good forces, like angels and what not, also atk and fight the drows simply because they are a matriarchy, which is again evil, and to change this is actually a good cause, like saving the oppressed males.

In a way, this flips the double standards around, since it directly demonizes a matriarchy society while there is no patriarchy under fire in the game.

Ofc, if this is what the paizo guys will go to or not, only time will tell.

Well, the matriarchy is evil - directly oppressing half the population. But it's far from the only thing evil about the Drow, so it's not like that will be the sole reason good forces oppose the Drow.

They pretty much revel in their evilness.

Ofc, but that is a macro level, atleast in my experience in the micro level, which is what most people play in, you could put groups of good people facing diferent aspects of drow evil directly. So you could have good groups that directly targets the matriarchy, you have groups that directly target slavery in pathfinder for example, ofc there are groups that target other aspects and so on.

Barbarossa Rotbart wrote:
At least in a matriarchy the "opressed" half of the population still has certain rights and they are needed (and not as genitors). In a patriarchy the opressed half has often no rights and are often not more than incubators. Thus a patriarchy is always more evil.

That as far as fantasy goes isnt true at all. The use of males as pretty much only "physical labor" isnt that uncommon i believe and of the top of my head i remember watching that series, rick and morty, recently and they had an episode where males were literally abandoned on a barren planet surfice to be used only as breeding stock for the highly advanced females. Probably people can list other examples.

Ofc there are other tropes that bring about similar things, like genders at war and thus separated from one another, enclosed gender societies where the other gender is used from outside and only as breeding stock...


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Wait, are you guys saying that Drow are the space elves and I'm a planetary elf? *Gracefully sips his elf-wine (from a glass, not a zero-g beverage pouch) as a single elf-tear slides down his elf-cheek.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erk Ander wrote:
Metaphysician wrote:

Chaotic Evil isn't the same thing as Stupid. The drow are violent and anarchic and don't care about the wellbeing of anybody but themselves, but this doesn't keep them from being functional businesses and diplomatic states. They will just be businesses and states heavily informed by the cultural ideologies at work.

The comparison with Rapture-esque Randians is not a bad one; the key difference being that they have enough common cultural touchstones to keep things functional. Primarily, a cultural paranoia about the universe trying to destroy them. Thus, you get infighting and backbiting and treachery... that very quickly turns off or burns out the moment there's an external threat. A drow scheming and betraying and murdering for their own benefit is Just Good Practice. . . until the moment it starts looking like Selling Out The Drow. Then the offending drow finds that all knives are united against them.

FR drow are very much Stupid, being that they are also influenced by Demons who are very often the manifestation of impulsive and murderous. But you have point.

Well, yes, which is why I'm very glad we have Paizo drow, who aren't Chaotic Stupid. ;)

( Seriously, Faerun's drow society makes zero sense, and I am forced to assume it only still exists because Lolth personally intervenes to keep it from self-destructing. Because, unlike Pathfinder drow, their society *is* purely self-destructive, and should have been destroyed by their numerous rivals long ago. )


I wasn't trying to say that patriarchies are more evil, it's just that it makes played more uncomfortable. A large fan base wouldn't like that, so paizo has to be careful.

Whereas for Drow, paizo has taken great steps to represent women in all aspects. Good, evil, and neutral. It's why there are a lot of female villains, and they took specific measures in Iron fang to just make female scoundrel.

So patriarchy is as bad as a matriarchy, it's just that one is a bit riskier to include in a game. To make money companies have to be careful of story elements like this.


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MageHunter wrote:

I wasn't trying to say that patriarchies are more evil, it's just that it makes played more uncomfortable. A large fan base wouldn't like that, so paizo has to be careful.

Whereas for Drow, paizo has taken great steps to represent women in all aspects. Good, evil, and neutral. It's why there are a lot of female villains, and they took specific measures in Iron fang to just make female scoundrel.

So patriarchy is as bad as a matriarchy, it's just that one is a bit riskier to include in a game. To make money companies have to be careful of story elements like this.

Actual patriarchy, especially as a potential background for PCs, is likely to uncomfortably reminiscent of a lot of unpleasant real world history. A matriarchy has the advantage of being a role reversal and thus very different overtones than a straight version.

An interesting take with the Drow might have been to have them moving out a strict matriarchy, in much the same way we're shifting away from patriarchy. All or at least most of the legal limitations removed, but much of the social prejudice and custom remaining. Drow men challenging the "glass ceilings" of Drow society.


The problem with Drow, and this is entirely R.A. Salvatores' fault, every Drow character is a Drow who left their culture. In previous versions, Pathfinder, DnD and so on. Drow are incredibly isolationist, killing most anything that came in contact with their society. So as a result anyone who played a Drow, unless the game was everyone Drow, they always left. This isn't bad, inherently, but it is the only possibility.

And this is why Paizo dropped the ball, the Gap, while long enough that most humans and other species would have had major changes through their generations, was within 1-2 for the Drow and other longer lived species. This is the perfect time for Drow to have them expand into various Planets, because they have no home planet and cannot continue their isolationism, and are not solely able to interact with their previous planets inhabitants, with the Elves, f%+&ing off to be hermits, the Dwarves getting plastered on 100's of different species kinds of boozes, Goblins still being goblins and for Humans to know too much about the Drow to rely on commerce that way. This would be a massive shift in their culture to be so open in commerce and society. Even if the Matriarchy is controlling of the information the masses see, example China, the rest of the world can see everything they are doing anyway.

I would imagine most Drow stories to be similar to how, again, China was coming into the modern age, the mass extermination of those who want to change the status quo, e.g. the men and more recently born females who want to model their society on the more established xeno cultures, and the attempted control of outside influence.

That's what should be done with them as it is viewed as a schism in their society as their dynasties try to protect their old traditions of control while in turn expanding and improving in nearly every aspect of their current position.

Or if you wanted a more how to say, destructive view of it, liken it to Majority Islamic countries, where women are kept as second class citizens, where backwards laws about education, positions in jobs, the home and even basic society are now being subject to the scrutiny of the outside world and then you can have various factions within Drow culture who are now causing many civil wars, starting s%$* with the other aliens for damaging their way of life and so on.

There are plenty of interesting stories and concepts to use for a society like the Drow to suddenly have that isolationism taken from them when their generations have not gradually acclimated to the changes. But instead they were kept as, Matriarchy, still evil, instead of spider goddess it's companies now, still evil. Pretty lazy and their was plenty they could do with it and I hope that what I said could inspire others to consider options beyond the bare bones or even just as one poster said, Drizzt Du'Skywalker.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

While your points are valid and provide some REALLY good seeds for storylines, I think you’re underestimating the power demons have on drow society. Back in Pathfinder, part of what made the drow the drow was the fact that early in their history, the various demon lords approached them and said “in exchange for your loyalty, we’ll help you not only survive down here in this hostile realm, but THRIVE,” and each Noble House was patronized by a different Lord of the Abyss. That doesn’t stop with the Gap. Even if the drow can’t remember a chunk of history, the demons would be quick to remind them of those obligations, especially when those obligations are rewarded with power. Drow society may have shifted more towards capitalism and modernity, but servants of the Abyss are still venerated among their elite, and the rest of their society follows suit. That’s a hard influence for drow society to shake.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
While your points are valid and provide some REALLY good seeds for storylines, I think you’re underestimating the power demons have on drow society. Back in Pathfinder, part of what made the drow the drow was the fact that early in their history, the various demon lords approached them and said “in exchange for your loyalty, we’ll help you not only survive down here in this hostile realm, but THRIVE,” and each Noble House was patronized by a different Lord of the Abyss. That doesn’t stop with the Gap. Even if the drow can’t remember a chunk of history, the demons would be quick to remind them of those obligations, especially when those obligations are rewarded with power. Drow society may have shifted more towards capitalism and modernity, but servants of the Abyss are still venerated among their elite, and the rest of their society follows suit. That’s a hard influence for drow society to shake.

Wasn't even demons. It was, originally, one evil God. Her name was Lolth the Spider Queen.

In fact she *created* the Drow by kidnapping a bunch of Elves and turning them into Drow. That's where Dryders came from as well.

Drow were, initially, a unique group of Elves that ONLY existed on Faerun. They technically shouldn't even be on Golarion. They were meant to exclusively be the servants of Lolth.


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Instead of being slaves, the males are now WAGE SLAVES.
Brave new world.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
HWalsh wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
While your points are valid and provide some REALLY good seeds for storylines, I think you’re underestimating the power demons have on drow society. Back in Pathfinder, part of what made the drow the drow was the fact that early in their history, the various demon lords approached them and said “in exchange for your loyalty, we’ll help you not only survive down here in this hostile realm, but THRIVE,” and each Noble House was patronized by a different Lord of the Abyss. That doesn’t stop with the Gap. Even if the drow can’t remember a chunk of history, the demons would be quick to remind them of those obligations, especially when those obligations are rewarded with power. Drow society may have shifted more towards capitalism and modernity, but servants of the Abyss are still venerated among their elite, and the rest of their society follows suit. That’s a hard influence for drow society to shake.

Wasn't even demons. It was, originally, one evil God. Her name was Lolth the Spider Queen.

In fact she *created* the Drow by kidnapping a bunch of Elves and turning them into Drow. That's where Dryders came from as well.

Drow were, initially, a unique group of Elves that ONLY existed on Faerun. They technically shouldn't even be on Golarion. They were meant to exclusively be the servants of Lolth.

This is true, but I’m specifically looking at this from Path/Star-Finder’s in-universe perspective, rather than from a meta-contextual one. The entry on the drow in Inner Sea Races gives a detailed history of the drow as a race, and it depicts multiple demon lords manipulating drow society through the noble houses they patronize, rather than a monolithic dedication to Lolth because in Pathfinder AND Starfinder there IS no Lolth.

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