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Stuff like this is why many of us here seem to agree you shouldn't be trying to upgrade your gear every level, but more every few levels. That said, sometimes you will be getting gear that may be level appropriate for an effective value of that 10% sellback rather than full by grabbing it off a fallen enemy.
If it winds up anything like PFS Organized Play probably won't be using the normal WBL expectations either. And generally from what I've seen the expectations for upgrading is buy level+1 (or +2) when possible, use until it's level-2 or so and then start looking for an upgrade. Add to that maybe staggering when you upgrade weapon, armor, and other stuff and it should work out fine.
EDIT: And as for your comment about getting wrecked for using N-1 or worse gear, well, part of the at least hinted design plan is that monsters have high to-hit anyways, so it doesn't really matter how good your armor is (provided it's within legal range), chances are you're getting hit a lot regardless. And weapons tend to upgrade damage in spurts rather than consistently across levels.
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... so it doesn't really matter how good your armor is (provided it's within legal range), chances are you're getting hit a lot regardless.
That just sounds like bad game design. Why bother at all if the enemies auto-hit?
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I think you are comparing the wrong numbers, you should be looking at the expected money gained - the cost of the armor + the sell back of the previous armor and how that compares to the expected wealth per level.
It appears to take 3.25 CR 1 encounters soloed, to level a character from level 1 to 2. Those encounters are expected to give 1,495 credits. That is more then the expected increase in wealth by level, so it appears some amount of reselling is expected by the system.
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Three things:
#1: WBL is not a measure of wealth gained. It's a measure of how much wealth PCs will have at any particular level. Sold items only count their 10% sales price towards it, not their full value.
#2: As others note, you're not expected to buy new armor every level.
#3: Anywhere but SFS you're probably getting free armor from dead humanoid opponents at least once most levels. Reducing the need for this. And SFS will likely give you more money for this reason among others.
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WBL has always been a representation of the value of gear you should have at that level (including any cash you might choose to have).
I'm not sure how the OP is calculating things exactly but...
A 12th level character is expected to have 150,000 credits worth of gear.
The more expensive level 12 light armor costs 34,600 gp. Representing 23% of WBL. A level 12 longarm weapon (there aren't a lot at that exact level) is going to run you around 40,000 credits. Representing ~27% of your WBL. In other words, your two main pieces of equipment represent 50% of your total WBL, which sounds about right. And leaves room to have slightly better (level +1) weapons or armor and still have some other stuff too.
The problem is that the OP is looking at total armor cost as a meaningful value, when as far as I can tell only represents how much the character has spent on armor over the course of the character (perhaps with the resale value subtracted from the original cost). Which has nothing to do anything. Because you should only be looking at how much the cost of your current armor is versus how much WBL you should currently have. WBL represents how much value you should have at that level, and doesn't account for anything you would have spent before that level.
If you're level 12 and for some reason still walking around with a weapon worth 15,000 gp and armor worth 15,000 (values made up for easy math) then you should have another 120,000 credits worth of stuff (including cash) to reach 150,000 credits of WBL.
No offense OP, but your math that you've done is simply meaningless because you seem to have misunderstood what Wealth By Level means.
Each point of AC still reduces enemy chances to hit. In SF its balanced so your armour saves you for some hits, as oppossed to PF heavy armour of "enemies must roll 17+." Given that you can heal massive parts of your HP pool with a short rest you are expected to also take more punches. You are also expected to use cover far more in SF and having "natural" ACs high enough to not need it takes away from that. It isn't bad design it is different design.... so it doesn't really matter how good your armor is (provided it's within legal range), chances are you're getting hit a lot regardless.That just sounds like bad game design. Why bother at all if the enemies auto-hit?
Having to rely on tactical maneuvers is pretty nice, but this does worry me given my preferred playstyle. This is all well and good for ranged fighters, but as someone who's a melee fighter at heart, but much prefers to dodge rather than tank attacks... With the lack of things like Combat Expertise, I wonder how I can still pull it off effectively...
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Having to rely on tactical maneuvers is pretty nice, but this does worry me given my preferred playstyle. This is all well and good for ranged fighters, but as someone who's a melee fighter at heart, but much prefers to dodge rather than tank attacks... With the lack of things like Combat Expertise, I wonder how I can still pull it off effectively...
A Vesk Soldier can get +4/+3 AC above most everyone who is neither, which can net something like AC 37/38 at 13th level, which is probably around a 30% chance of getting hit with any particular attack with a good bonus. Less if there's a Full Attack involved. Maybe less or more, given our lack of full NPC guidelines.
That's not as nice as you might expect in Pathfinder, but it's not bad.
Get an extra arm, ask GM if you can hold up the body of your first charge target to provide soft cover.
Likely the penalties for being encumbered or overburdened from carrying a 100-300 lb enemy plus their equipment in addition to your equipment are going to be worse than the AC bonus for cover you gain. Plus its at least a move action to pick them up.
You are better off just taking the Barricade feat (partial cover as a move action - possibly using the body you just created on the floor), using the Fight Defensively action (-4 to hit, +2 AC) or the total defense action (+4 AC, no AoOs, no attack).
A 2nd level Solarian with Stellar Rush or a 5th level Blitz Soldier can just standard action charge and still have a move action to use Barricade, or move their speed back to cover (especially if they're using a reach weapon and aren't in any threatened squares), or ready an action to move back to cover if shot at.
Get an extra arm, ask GM if you can hold up the body of your first charge target to provide soft cover.Likely the penalties for being encumbered or overburdened from carrying a 100-300 lb enemy plus their equipment in addition to your equipment are going to be worse than the AC bonus for cover you gain. Plus its at least a move action to pick them up.
You are better off just taking the Barricade feat (partial cover as a move action - possibly using the body you just created on the floor), using the Fight Defensively action (-4 to hit, +2 AC) or the total defense action (+4 AC, no AoOs, no attack).
A 2nd level Solarian with Stellar Rush or a 5th level Blitz Soldier can just standard action charge and still have a move action to use Barricade, or move their speed back to cover (especially if they're using a reach weapon and aren't in any threatened squares), or ready an action to move back to cover if shot at.
Ooh. I like this idea! My character actually IS a Blitz Soldier who wields a spear, so this could work quite nicely! And now that I think about it, Spring Attack also seems useful for this sort of thing! That said, I would lose out on attacks of opportunity, which would've been awesome, considering the 10 ft. range + Step Up and Strike would mean anything without reach at the edge of my range would provoke an attack no matter what, but still, sometimes moving out of the way can be the better choice rather than all-out offense.
Also, hats off to the guy who thought of the extra arm + body thing! Even if it's impractical, very creative nonetheless! It does make me wonder though, would holding the body even really count as carrying it? Provided it's still conscious, wouldn't it still be supporting its own weight? I'm thinking you'd probably have to run a grapple check each round instead. Either way, still fun.
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I think the others are right. You aren't supposed to upgrade your armor every level, or even every other level. In a similar thread I posted elsewhere, someone suggested about every three levels.
In fact: (minor spoilers for dead suns) My character didn't even get a chance to upgrade his armor when he got to level 2, let alone 3. Sure he got hit a lot, but since you have essentially double the HP from pathfinder, and half of that can be recovered with a 10 min. Rest, it really isn't a huge deal.
In fact my first planned armor upgrade is Lashunta ringwear II. Second planned upgrade is advanced Iridishell (assuming we don't find something else while adventuring.)
DMW: To your third point about free armor, it's not actually free in terms of WBL... it still counts towards 15-25% of your WBL as its actual value, even if you didn't buy it at a station. RAW the GM should be reducing your treasure gains to compensate.
Claxon: I was all set to write a long explanation of what is wrong with WBL, and then re-read your post and realized you are correct. If someone is upgrading their gear every level, the GM should be sending more wealth their way to maintain the WBL (if referencing that table). Otherwise, the WBL would indeed be skewed by frequent upgrading. Having run some data, the experience per encounter, wealth per encounter, and number of encounters between levels do not quite reach the level of keeping WBL up if someone is upgrading every level - but that means the suggested wealth per encounter should be adjusted, not necessarily the sell back percentage or the WBL.
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DMW: To your third point about free armor, it's not actually free in terms of WBL... it still counts towards 15-25% of your WBL as its actual value, even if you didn't buy it at a station. RAW the GM should be reducing your treasure gains to compensate.
Absolutely! But only the newest, best, armor will (or at the very least should) count its full value towards WBL.
PCs having WBL value in equipment is a goal the GM should be aiming for, old armor nobody's wearing only counts its sell-price towards that.
A 12th level character is expected to have 150,000 credits worth of gear.The more expensive level 12 light armor costs 34,600 gp. Representing 23% of WBL. A level 12 longarm weapon (there aren't a lot at that exact level) is going to run you around 40,000 credits. Representing ~27% of your WBL. In other words, your two main pieces of equipment represent 50% of your total WBL, which sounds about right.
The WBL guidelines state that, for a balanced approach, you should spend no more than 25% of your funds on weapons.
Based on the numbers you've provided, and those I've seen elsewhere, I believe the expectation of balance is that you are likely NOT carrying around weapons equal to your level.
After all, how on earth could you possibly be expected to dual-wield or have a backup weapon if only one of them is 27% of your total wealth, out of the 25% allocated for your weapons? Clearly it's assumed you can still do those things; we have feats and abilities that support it after all.
No, though you can have weapons equal to your level, or even at +1 or +2 at significant cost, game balance is definitely not based on that assumption.
DMW: To your third point about free armor, it's not actually free in terms of WBL... it still counts towards 15-25% of your WBL as its actual value, even if you didn't buy it at a station. RAW the GM should be reducing your treasure gains to compensate.Absolutely! But only the newest, best, armor will (or at the very least should) count its full value towards WBL.
PCs having WBL value in equipment is a goal the GM should be aiming for, old armor nobody's wearing only counts its sell-price towards that.
Wait, so, from a player's perspective, I want to make the otherwise questionable choice of upgrade my armor constantly because my GM is expected to see that I'm dirt-poor and open the cash throttle?
Wait, so, from a player's perspective, I want to make the otherwise questionable choice of upgrade my armor constantly because my GM is expected to see that I'm dirt-poor and open the cash throttle?DMW: To your third point about free armor, it's not actually free in terms of WBL... it still counts towards 15-25% of your WBL as its actual value, even if you didn't buy it at a station. RAW the GM should be reducing your treasure gains to compensate.Absolutely! But only the newest, best, armor will (or at the very least should) count its full value towards WBL.
PCs having WBL value in equipment is a goal the GM should be aiming for, old armor nobody's wearing only counts its sell-price towards that.
That sounds horrible to me. As does the inverse of penalizing those who understand budgeting. For better or worse, accounting skills aid the PCs' power levels. The questions are: How much? And should and how would GMs factor for that? If a GM started checking my wealth every level, I might buy more grenades & expendables, but do I deserve them? Could the encounters handle that? And maybe having them makes the game more fun for everyone?
Somebody upgrading every other level should have more money than somebody upgrading every level, but does that work with the system?
The PC/player took the risk, shouldn't there be a reward?
Are money matters one reason that the AP goes only to 12th because budgeting causes an insurmountable power gap as the weapons ramp up?
Hmm...
A 12th level character is expected to have 150,000 credits worth of gear.The more expensive level 12 light armor costs 34,600 gp. Representing 23% of WBL. A level 12 longarm weapon (there aren't a lot at that exact level) is going to run you around 40,000 credits. Representing ~27% of your WBL. In other words, your two main pieces of equipment represent 50% of your total WBL, which sounds about right.
The WBL guidelines state that, for a balanced approach, you should spend no more than 25% of your funds on weapons.
Based on the numbers you've provided, and those I've seen elsewhere, I believe the expectation of balance is that you are likely NOT carrying around weapons equal to your level.
After all, how on earth could you possibly be expected to dual-wield or have a backup weapon if only one of them is 27% of your total wealth, out of the 25% allocated for your weapons? Clearly it's assumed you can still do those things; we have feats and abilities that support it after all.
No, though you can have weapons equal to your level, or even at +1 or +2 at significant cost, game balance is definitely not based on that assumption.
I think that "balanced" in this case just means that your character is not "overly" offensively geared. I.e. you shouldn't let the character spend all 126,600 credits on buying a White Star Plasma Rifle, and using what's left to buy substandard armor.
And really, this is more a problem with weapons then anything else. No one is going to run around with multiple armors (or rather it's excessively unlikely and wouldn't be beneficial). So you could argue that the game doesn't expect you to have a main weapon at your level and a backup weapon...but since the rules specifically mention being able to buy up to your level + 2 this interpretation seems unlikely.
A 12th level character is expected to have 150,000 credits worth of gear.The more expensive level 12 light armor costs 34,600 gp. Representing 23% of WBL. A level 12 longarm weapon (there aren't a lot at that exact level) is going to run you around 40,000 credits. Representing ~27% of your WBL. In other words, your two main pieces of equipment represent 50% of your total WBL, which sounds about right.
The WBL guidelines state that, for a balanced approach, you should spend no more than 25% of your funds on weapons.
Based on the numbers you've provided, and those I've seen elsewhere, I believe the expectation of balance is that you are likely NOT carrying around weapons equal to your level.
After all, how on earth could you possibly be expected to dual-wield or have a backup weapon if only one of them is 27% of your total wealth, out of the 25% allocated for your weapons? Clearly it's assumed you can still do those things; we have feats and abilities that support it after all.
No, though you can have weapons equal to your level, or even at +1 or +2 at significant cost, game balance is definitely not based on that assumption.
I think that "balanced" in this case just means that your character is not "overly" offensively geared. I.e. you shouldn't let the character spend all 126,600 credits on buying a White Star Plasma Rifle, and using what's left to buy substandard armor.
And really, this is more a problem with weapons then anything else. No one is going to run around with multiple armors (or rather it's excessively unlikely and wouldn't be beneficial). So you could argue that the game doesn't expect you to have a main weapon at your level and a backup weapon...but since the rules specifically mention being able to buy up to your level + 2 this interpretation seems unlikely.
Perhaps, but as has been said, you will probably only upgrade every three levels or so. That means you will have inappropriately-leveled gear for most of your character's career.
There's no way the designers overlooked that. It's clearly meant to be that way. You're expected to have lower level gear more often than not.
No one is going to run around with multiple armors (or rather it's excessively unlikely and wouldn't be beneficial).
But that's literally what we were just talking about doing with the charge-per-minute powered armors. I don't think this is a safe assumption, if we want them to be viable.
No one is going to run around with multiple armors (or rather it's excessively unlikely and wouldn't be beneficial).But that's literally what we were just talking about doing with the charge-per-minute powered armors. I don't think this is a safe assumption, if we want them to be viable.
Huh?
I missed this conversation. And as it sits why would you have multiple powered armors rather than a null space bag full of batteries?
No one is going to run around with multiple armors (or rather it's excessively unlikely and wouldn't be beneficial).But that's literally what we were just talking about doing with the charge-per-minute powered armors. I don't think this is a safe assumption, if we want them to be viable.Huh?
I missed this conversation. And as it sits why would you have multiple powered armors rather than a null space bag full of batteries?
You miss this conversation because I got this mixed up with another thread, so mea culpa.
All good.
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Thought I would throw this up here for the curious. I put a number of charts into Excel and was able to determine the following:
- It takes an average of 13.4 encounters to reach the next level
- For a party of four, individual wealth gain greatly exceeds WBL, to the tune of total wealth gain of 5.8 million credits upon reaching level 20.
- The amount of total wealth gained at any level is roughly twice the WBL for that level
- The amount of wealth gained between any two levels is roughly 2.3x the increase in WBL between those two levels
- Leveling a longarm, small arm, heavy armor, or light armor at every possible level takes ~18% of the difference between WBL and Total Wealth
- Leveling a longarm, small arm, heavy armor, or light armor at every possible level takes ~30% of the difference between delta WBL and the wealth gained between levels.
- Assuming a single armor and single weapon, this leaves the remaining 40% of difference (over 500,000 credits from 19-20) for consumables like spell gems, grenades, or Healing Serums.
- The difference between the 18% and 30% numbers implies an assumption of very high consumable use
There are a few outliers at some odd breakpoints (no level 3 or 8 small arms that I could find, for example), but for the most part the math is very consistent. I am no longer concerned about the costs of upgrading equipment, and am impressed with how many moving bits and pieces still line up to a consistent result.
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Plus it's not out of line (particularly at early levels) for the GM to drop APL+1 or APL+2 Armour or weapons in an adventure for the PCs to loot. Particularly if they know the players will be going into an adventure without much in the way of combat loot, so a set of armour might actually be viable for a band of about 3-4 levels.
Say you're level 2, and gain a Level 3 armour.
That armour will be viable levels 2, 3, 4 and possibly even 5. Which is roughly 1/5th of a character's entire career.
If you really want to keep PCs on the upgrade treadmill every level just give them WBL -10% every level.
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... so it doesn't really matter how good your armor is (provided it's within legal range), chances are you're getting hit a lot regardless.That just sounds like bad game design. Why bother at all if the enemies auto-hit?
the enemies don't autohit , at least in my games, though higher then player level creatures tend to have pretty good to hit numbers
my players very specifically got decent armor after there 1st few sessionsplayers really should IMHO aim to have higher level armor then there level if there not going to be using cover..but really players should be using cover because the game assumes that people will be using cover
I do find some of the costs odd too. "wait to go up like 2 points in armor, this now costs half a million credits?"
I do find some of the costs odd too. "wait to go up like 2 points in armor, this now costs half a million credits?"
The economy of equipment in Starfinder is killing me. The prices are wonky as you pointed out, it's literally MMO incrementalism, the armors are bland with little to nothing distinguishing them from each other. There is no real difference between total protection from heavy or light armor (just how you get that protection), the weapons start at wet noodle, and grow from there and you can't actually expect a weapon style to he something you can stick with if you want to stay in the mix correctly.
It's just one big mess.
There's also a lack of room for the upgrades, or the funds to spend on them. Try finding a decent armor at 3rd level that is affordable and can hold the force field mod.
Heavy armors have hardly any slots until mid levels while these almost skin level lights have room. It's nonsensical.
I feel like I like/love 75-80% of what they have made. That last but though is almost enough to make me scream.
I have big hopes for the armory to help fix some of this.
I should not have to put off having an upgrade for shotgun from level 1 to level 6-7 for example.
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It's a level 1 item.
Each weapon fusion has an item level, and a fusion can’t be placed on a weapon that has a lower level than the fusion’s item level. Once it is attached to a weapon, a weapon fusion uses the weapon’s item level for any of the weapon fusion’s level-based effects.
You can place multiple fusions on the same weapon, but only if the weapon’s item level is equal to or greater than the combined total of all the fusions’ item levels. A weapon cannot hold or benefit from additional fusions beyond this limit. A fusion that applies an effect to attacks applies it to all targets for spread weapons, automatic fire, explode weapons, and other effects with multiple targets.
So no, not really.
However my personal short term solution is simply to use the weapon design system from Pathfinder.
My homerule is you can upgrade an item to the next item level for the cost of the item. This gives you a points you can use to improve the weapon characteristics of the weapon (improving the damage or such). Each weapon can only be upgraded 4 levels over it's original item level.
This will also allow better/more fusions to be added on.
I intend to do something similar for armor.
For those interested I have put a link to a google document where I have my prototype rules for upgrading weapons. It's rough, but should be a starting point for getting to a better place.
Any comments or ideas should be left there.