This type of question comes up in invisibility threads. The interpretation I found convincing is that the person who's square is being moved through can determine if the one entering the square is an ally for movement rules. This means that the fighter would move through the rogue's square without knowing it (assuming rogue wanted to let him), unless the fighter decides to end his movement in the rogue's square in which case he bumps into something and is bounced to the previous square.
Generally if the rogue takes an AOO,they drop out of stealth.
You are correct Wraithstrike that the targets area is the wrong place to point out. I did not see how you would run, I think it may look like the revised method below.
Let me include the original method in the same format.
I wanted to argue that both methods were valid, but it appears the revised method is the way the rules call for it to be run. I think this situation of a spell with multiple effects hitting a spell that is both a target and a spell cast on someone is an outlier that was not considered of when writing the SR section.
You should determine whether the target or images are hit first, roll to hit, and destroy an image for each ray that missed by the target by 5 or less or hit an image, roll SR for any ray that hit the target to negate that ray.
I looked at spell resistance in the PRD Universal Monster Rules, the PRD Magic Section, and PRD Glossary. The Glossary had the most extensive rule set on Spell Resistance. There is also an FAQ on Mirror Image and Miss Chance that seems applicable.
I said first determine if the target or images are hit because spell resistance only applies to portions of a spell that actually target a creature with SR.
PRD Glossary Spell Resistance:
/Spell Resistance/When Spell Resistance Applies wrote:
Targeted Spells: Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature's spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.
I then have you check to see if the SR target is missed by 5 or less because "Spell resistance has no effect unless the energy created or released by the spell actually goes to work on the resistant creature's mind or body." and a ray that missed you is not acting on your body. (quote from PRD Glossary/Spell Resistance/When Spell resistance Applies, 7th paragraph.)
Finally a hit from a ray that hits the target but is negated by SR would not affect the target because of both the previously quoted " Spell resistance prevents a spell from disrupting another spell." and is backed up by FAQ on Mirror Image and Miss Chance which has an example of a spell that protects the target from the targeted effect not losing an image when the hit becomes a miss. As opposed to effects protect the target by changing the hit to a miss.
FAQ on Mirror Image and Miss Chance:
Paizo FAQ wrote:
I had a similar thing just happen where a PC wanted to cooperate with an NPC to be turned into a plant creature. I used the dynamic item creation rules as a base for the ritual. I made the ritual three steps. Researching what needs to be done, gathering components, then preforming the ritual. The players enjoyed all being involved in the process and since it involved rolls with unknown risks for failure nobody else decided to be a subject when they saw the results.
I think you are comparing the wrong numbers, you should be looking at the expected money gained - the cost of the armor + the sell back of the previous armor and how that compares to the expected wealth per level.
It appears to take 3.25 CR 1 encounters soloed, to level a character from level 1 to 2. Those encounters are expected to give 1,495 credits. That is more then the expected increase in wealth by level, so it appears some amount of reselling is expected by the system.
Ultimate Intrigue, page 184:
My main point is that there are several threads specifically on missile shield vs alchemist bombs and on deflect arrows vs alchemist bombs. Going off the consensus of a generally titled thread dealing with several topics that had less than 40 posts will likely not lead to the conclusion the posts the existing threads about the topic have come to.
I would so a search for missile shield vs alchemist bombs, deflect arrows vs alchemist bombs, and monk vs alchemist. There are several threads there relating to deflecting bombs. That will give you a much wider range of interpretation and rules scrutiny than here.
At a PaizoCon table my GM went and talked to the HQ to get their take on trample. He said he was told that the trampler got a double move as part of the trample action, people got either the save or attack as mentioned in trample, and that there was no chance of knocking prone.
Take it as you will, it is how I run it now.
You can explain to the players that they are supposed to be trailblazing for their expedition and if they get too far ahead monsters may wander into the area after they pass but before the expedition gets there. Also it gets harder to tell the expedition where to go as the groups get further away from each other.
With the Devs ruling I would have to say you still pop an image if you miss from concealment.
All the arguments against a nat 1 failing to pop an image apply to concealment as well. In fact because of the wording of the concealment rules, if you miss because of concealment you automatically pop an image as you have to hit before concealment is rolled.
The argument against it that I can see is that the Attacker is suppose to roll his attack and if he hits, the defender rolls to avoid being struck. There may be an argument that the attacker actually hit, but his attack was negated.
From the PDR
I believe we are not going to agree on what the rules say here. I think if you look at my post near the top of the page you will see I endorse playing in a way that does not strictly follow the rules in this instance to increase the fun for the players. If that means leaving images on a PC mage that is near death or destroying images that is on an NPC wizard that is killing them I am fine being inconsistent with the interpretation. I am not sure if there is anything left to discuss.
Edited for quote.
graystone said wrote:
Ok, I'll do it again. "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus". PLEASE show me where the rules for natural one that say NOT to do this rule. NOTHING is making the attack automatic stops it from having the modifiers added; It just doesn't matter most times.
Now "roll a d20 and add your attack bonus"+5 did you hit? If yes you have a near miss, if no you do not. That is the part where we disagree and that we have not found any clear way of convincing the other.
The rules do not tell you how to determine a near miss. I believe we all agree that a natural 1 does not hit and that you can not add any number to a natural 1 and get a hit. We disagree on the math for determining a near miss.
I believe that since you can not add any number to a natural one and get a hit you can not miss by 5 or less, as no amount of immediate reaction bonus to hit or forgotten bonuses like bard song can turn your miss into a hit.
You believe that you can subtract the attack roll from the AC and determine a number you missed by despite the fact that if you added that number to your attack roll you would not have hit.
The challenge you have is showing where in the rules it lets you add numbers to an attack roll of natural 1 and get a hit.
King never claimed you do it for one and not the other. He claimed the specific ability Bull Rush asks you to compare the original roll to CMD and that the specific effect Mirror Image does not mention AC or CMD anywhere. That is why he is treating what happens to Bull Rush and Mirror Image differently on a nat 1 or 20.
Now if you say you compare the number rolled to the target's AC you get back to the start of the argument which is how do you determine if you miss by 5 or less. Do you subtract your roll from the targets AC and look for a number less than 5, or do you add 5 to your roll and see if you now generate a hit.
It looks like King is saying that they are both specific cases and one calls out for a comparison and the other does not. So bull rush could benefit from extra distance that comparing your roll to CMD generates because it asks you too, but mirror image does not ask you to compare the attack roll vs AC so it does not so you can not miss by 5 or less.
The specific rule only changes the aspect that it becomes a hit (or miss), but does not change any other aspects.
So you contend that the specific rule "A natural 20 (the d20comes up 20) is always a hit." only replaces the second (third) sentence of the attack general rule of "When you make an attack
roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals
or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."?
That would make the rule look like the following for Nat 1s.
"When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss."
Now lets look at the what mirror image asks. "If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss."
Now I have an attack roll total (lets say 19), I have a result (miss), and I have a condition misses by 5 for less. I don't have a number to miss by 5 or less though so it is not defined.
That is how examining the rules makes it appear to me. People said a long time ago in the first threat that this seems like a great thing for a GM to address as both stances lead to some odd results. The best playing solution is probably to have an inconsistent interpretation of the rules that make the result the most fun for the players.
dragonhunterq said wrote:
Any ruling to the contrary has absolutely no basis in the rules at all
General rule for attacks "When you make an attackroll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other
modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage."
Specific rule for Natural 1s "A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss"
There is no mention of adding any bonuses to the natural 1 or comparing it to the AC.
I have said several time that you do not hit by any number you are hitting by a rule.
Lets check the first sentence: Are we successful.
Second Sentence: For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your
The general rule for attacks says "When you make an attack
Since we do not compare a natural 20 to the opponents CMD we can not exceed it.
Result: Pushed back 5 feet.
The bullrushing people for infinite distance is the same misunderstanding of math as dividing by 0. As you approach dividing by zero you get bigger and bigger numbers from the positive side and larger negative numbers from the negative side, but dividing by zero is actually undefined not infinite. People are looking at the numbers approaching a nat 20 and seeing that you are generally pushing things further and further, but when you get to 20 you switch to a different rule of "A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit".
It is easy to tell if you missed by five or less. Add five to your result and see if you hit. If you still missed then you did not miss by five or less, simple math. If you roll a natural 1 then add your attack bonus with an additional 5, you still get a miss, so you did not miss by 5 or less. If you ask what you need to change to get a hit you find that you missed by the rule saying natural 1s miss and that you did not miss by any number because no number added to your result causes you to hit.
Darksol the Painbringer said wrote:
Using that logic also makes for weird results when applied to Bull Rush and rolling a 20. You could Bull Rush roll a nat 20 and exceed their CMD by -5 or -10 and not move them or pull them towards you.
Matthew Downie said wrote:
So, according to one interpretation, a Natural 1 is "miss by infinity".
If you look at what I said I did not say you missed by infinity; I said you could add any amount to the roll and still miss, therefore you did not miss by any number. To find out what you missed by look at what would need to change so you hit. In that case you would have missed by the rule saying 1s always miss.
Matthew Downie said wrote:
For consistency, I presume a Natural 20 is a "hit by infinity". (Since even if you were operating with a minus on million penalty to hit, you'd still hit.)".
Since I never said you hit by infinity you do not get you magically add whatever you want on a 20. At worst it means on a 20 you would only do the minimum effect of push them back 5 feet.
I think Acrobatic Charge still provides benefit even if you allow jumping over obstacles, as you can charge through heavy undergrowth with no roll. I think the reference to checks would apply to a situation where the Duelist is charging across unusual terrain, i.e. webs.
There are very long threats that were written in the past about jumping and charging. I haven't read all of them, but one of the posts said they all went back and forth with no definitive agreement.
I find James Jacob's opinion that you can jump over obstacles convincing and rule that way in my games.
He has the highest DCs to make friendly and pokes fun at the PCs. My characters didn't care for him at first.
After getting off the island I did have Gelik tell the PCs he knew someone that would buy all their loot. I had him take them to the Pathfinder lodge where the pathfinder accountants being lazy offered buy everything for 6,000 GP each. He would then be kind enough to sell them back anything they had sold at full price. They didn't like the Pathfinder Society deal.
You can let an NPC get eaten first. I think Ishirou would look tasty with his big muscles. If they haven't made it into the camp yet, you can have Pezock intercept them a bit short of the compound. If they need help escaping you could have the woods whisper to Aycenia that there are beings that could help with her quest. She could show up at night and offer to help if they are willing to accept her quest. The cannibals may feel blessed with the bounty and lower the PCs into the Caves of the Mother as an offering. They don't get their weapons or armor, but you could place some stuff for them to use like large bones that could be clubs or sticks.