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Does forced movement provoke attacks of opportunity? The rules seem to be unclear.
In the combat section it states that if you leave a threatened area you provoke. It says nothing about it having to be willing.
My primary concern is when using the Gravity Hold ability of a Solarion.
If it does provoke you can use it to grab your opponents and move them past friends for AoO's/
If it doesn't provoke you can use it to grab your friends (or yourself) and move them into and out of combat without triggering AoO's.
Either way it's a solid use of the ability, I just need to know which way I should be using it.
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RAW is certainly unclear. Best support you could say to not trigger is it says "you move" which could be different than "your character moves or is moved"
My RAI is that the AoO is due to you dropping your guard when you turn around and move quickly away (moving your full speed rather than moving carefully 5' keeping your guard up with Guarded Step.)
Because you wouldn't be dropping your guard with forced movement, it wouldn't provoke the AoO.
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A creature forcibly moved by a Solarion's Black Hole revelation does not provoke an attack of opportunity, per this statement in that revelation's description on page 103:
"Creatures moved by this ability do not provoke attacks of opportunity from this movement."
The rules for attacks of opportunity give two exceptions to when movement provokes (Guarded Step and Withdraw) -- note that involuntary movement is not one of the exceptions.
So I would conclude that a forced movement ability by default would cause the creature who is moved to provoke attacks of opportunity unless the ability's description contains a statement like the one quoted above.
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That makes sense, and is the interpretation I favor.
HOWEVER. If that is the case, bull rush also provokes, as it does not contain that language. You could bull rush someone, push them back, and then use your reaction to attack them for leaving your threatened space.
Except while you are bullrushing and moving them it is your turn, so you don't have a reaction available yet. I don't think you can react while to are acting unless specifically called out as a part of a special circumstance.
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HOWEVER. If that is the case, bull rush also provokes, as it does not contain that language. You could bull rush someone, push them back, and then use your reaction to attack them for leaving your threatened space.
I don't think this is the case.
Unless their descriptions state otherwise, purely defensive reactions interrupt the triggering action: resolve the reaction first, then continue resolving the triggering action. Otherwise, resolve the reaction immediately after the triggering action.
A bullrush is not a purely defensive action so it will complete first. To me this means the other person has already been moved back 5' (or more). Reach might complicate this a some however.
Solarian abilities such as black hole and gravity hold also have prohibitions against this (GH works like psychokinetic hand, specifically prohibits attacking).
Psychokinetic hand doesn't prevent the caster from attacking (if you somehow got another standard action in a turn from an Envoy) or AoOs.
You point your finger at the target object, gaining the ability to lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move action, you can propel the object as far as 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range. You can’t perform complex operations, such as firing a gun or using a computer, but you can shut a mechanical door or lid and work simple buttons to open or close automated doors or trigger an alarm.
The second half of the bolded sentence makes it clear the first half is referring to uses of the lifted object, not the caster. You can not psychokinetically pick up a gun and fire it at a distance. But there's no restriction on the caster holding a longsword and taking a swing as someone left his threatened area. The caster is still able to do anything his remaining actions would allow him to do.
On the other hand, many of the "Greater" combat maneuver feats in Pathfinder cause forced movement to provoke attacks of opportunity on the victim. So, the RAI question would be, did the designers of Starfinder intend to give that ability earlier (after one feat rather than two) or not at all?
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Reposition also has the same issue. Move them and you get to hit with an AoO.
My level 10 solarion with 22+ str and improved combat maneuver picks up that goblin and repositions it flying-airplane-style around and around next to all my advanced melee weapon-wielding friends, who each get to whack it for free...
Makes Solarian's Stellar Rush ludicrous. (Move, then charge, then bull rush, then explode for fire damage, then make an opportunity attack.) There isn't a better solo damage option available (if damage is your thing...)
[Crack!] That's the sound of bull rush and reposition breaking the game, and going OP.
This one had better get cleared up quick. Everyone please click FAQ on the first post in this thread...
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I think the effort to simplify the AoO rules are the cause of this confusion. I don’t think that forced movement causes the target to provoke an attack of opportunity. It historically has not. When a target is forced back the target is not the subject and moving. It is the direct object of the action causing the movement. The target is not moving but rather it is being moved.
This is the way it works in other d20 systems unless special rules are in effect. For example a feat or feature which causes the movement to provoke attacks of opportunity.
A character can provoke an attack of opportunity by choosing to move, “the opponent moves” is the text. It does not say “the opponent leaves or is moved out of”. The target’s action provokes the attack of opportunity, not those of an opponent.
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If damage is your thing, stellar rush is a 2d6 + 1d6 per 2 levels starting at lvl 6. Add the solarion's ways to damage others NOT on their turn. If you do your math right, an optimized solarion is going to beat an optimized blitz solider in pure damage output hands-down - not even a contest. It'll be the solarion pointing and snickering at the blitz soldier's puny attempt. At least they toned down bull rush in SF so they can only move a single target.
And the real difference is you've moved them far enough away (perhaps) that they can no longer take a full action melee attack against you. And don't underestimate that power. Action economy is serious in both games (PF and SF).
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This one had better get cleared up quick. Everyone please click FAQ on the first post in this thread...
Its FAR from gamebreaking as you are spending a feat, targeting KAC+4 to use the bull rush, AND using your only reaction for the round to pull off the whole manuver.
Show me any other *standard* action in the book, available at 2nd level even, that potentially allows you to move twice your movement speed, does 2d6 + 1d6 per 2 levels starting at lvl 6 to your target, pushes your target (*no* penalties on the charge/bull rush attempt) far enough so they can't take a full action melee attack against you, and RAW allows you an opportunity attack against them. Not gamebreaking?
Pardon me, but I don't want to see this kind of cheese in Starfinder, which in my limited play experience seems so-far balanced and relatively cheese-free.
Ah, FAQ it, please.
No, forced movement does not provoke AoO.
One, the target is NOT taking a move action. Move has a narrow definition in the game.
Bull Rush says the target is "knocked back", not "moved."
Besides, the last paragraph of Attacks of Opportunity pretty much eliminates this nonsense, emphasis added.
Attacks of opportunity are always resolved before the action
that triggers them. You don’t take a penalty to the attack roll
when making an attack of opportunity in the same round you
took a full attack, but you do take any other attack penalties
that would normally apply to your attacks. Making an attack
of opportunity does not affect your ability to make attacks
normally when it is your turn.
The AoO cannot be provoked or triggered because it would happen before the Bull Rush. The target has not been knocked back.
edited for clarity/emphasis
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If it was as easy as "Forced movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity" you think Paizo would've put that single line of text in that section.
Instead, what you get are some powers that specifically state that the movement forced by this power does not provoke (black hole), and other powers that do cause forced movement (stellar rush) on which the rulebook is silent.
The definition of "moves" is what's at stake. It doesn't say "chooses to move" or "moves willingly", it does say specifically, "if opponent moves out of a space in any way other than a guarded step".
*In *any* other way* - well what other ways are there? Withdraw, a 'move your speed' action, a crawl, a bull rush, reposition, a pull from a special power.
Specifically the word 'move' is not synonymous as a "move your speed" action. There are move actions that don't leave a space. The word "move" or "moves" has not been defined as only a voluntary option.
Bull rush, reposition or the combat maneuver section could easily have had the added text "Any forced movement of an opponent caused by you taking the "combat maneuver" action [or any use of character abilities] does not provoke attacks of opportunity." There, that solves it, but it is not present in that section.
Regardless, it is impossible to make an AoO before the Bull Rush action. Nothing triggers an AoO on the part of the target of the Bull Rush.
Forced movement doesn’t trigger an AoO on the part of the pushed because an AoO has to be resolved before the action. Since the target of the forced movement hasn’t triggered the AoO before the attack, it is impossible to resolve it before the action.
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Regardless, it is impossible to make an AoO before the Bull Rush action. Nothing triggers an AoO on the part of the target of the Bull Rush.
I'll play devil's advocate here, because it still is not clear.
It's not the action that triggers the AoO, it's the success of the action that triggers the AoO. A failed bull rush does not trigger.
The reaction is triggered only if the bull rush is successful (by more than 5 on the check), then the attack of opportunity resolves before the bull rush is resolved. This sentence in that section merely refers to the *resolution* order.
One line of text could have (and still can) solved this.
Please mark it as FAQ. I hope I've raised enough doubt about the wording that it could be made very much clear instead of left dubious.
The truth is I don't want to encounter a rules lawyer player at a convention who insists that bull rushes provoke AoOs.
As for the definition of 'move' - the solarion description of gravity hold says that you may possess an opponent and 'move' them. So, clearly this power allows an unwilling 'move' of a creature, not on its turn.
Anyone arguing that a Bull Rush or similar enables the attacker to take an AoO must also accept that the target gets to perform a similar AoO against the attacker. Tit for tat.
The attacker has to continue moving with the target to trigger.
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Bull rush (nor stellar rush) in Starfinder doesn't allow you to move into a vacated space, like it does in Pathfinder, so no it won't.
Reposition, though, should, if the repositioner tried to move from a threatened space. According to the text, the movement of your opponent must stay within your reach, so unless you have reach and it doesn't, it would provoke, if your opponent threatened your space.
Interesting, if you don't have reach, a creature with reach can reposition you without provoking AoO.
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The rule is not clear. The rulebook says in some places, for X power, this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity; in other places it is silent, thus allowing it, by default, to be RAW.
So that means a level 2 solarion can (with stellar rush):
Take a *standard* action that potentially allows you; 1) to move twice your movement speed, 2) does 2d6 (+ 1d6 per 2 levels starting at lvl 6) to your target, 3) can push your target (*no* penalties on the charge/bull rush attempt) far enough so they can't take a full action melee attack against you, 4) potentially into dangerous, damaging and/or lethal terrain, and 5) RAW allows you an opportunity attack against them.
It's one example of forced movement provoking AOs that is cheese. Bull rush, reposition, some solarion gravity powers and psychokinetic powers that cause forced movement, as RAW, provoke AOs. Please FAQ it.
As the original poster pointed out, forced movement is an area that needs to be addressed.
Oh, as an aside, I love Solarions. In the example I think you are comparing apples and oranges (level 2 solarions with level 11 soldiers). The solarion extra damage is not 2d6, it's 7d6, not to mention any additional damage for terrain moved into. And the full attack you avoid. And the extra melee damage you inflict from the AO.
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I would also like to bump this up as ask for people to mark it as a FAQ. It is a question that I've seen run into a lot of argument in practice, and it would be great if we could get a definitive answer on whether it's just an oversight that Starfinder rules have no clause about forced movement not provoking.
Starfinder Lead Designer
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Our updated FAQ now holds the answer to this question: Yes, forced movement provokes attacks of opportunity.
Yay!
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Our updated FAQ now holds the answer to this question: Yes, forced movement provokes attacks of opportunity.
Reposition, Bullrush, and Black Hole received a huge buff this day in games around the pact worlds.
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Black Hole has a specific rule of the movement it causes not provoking (which was actually one of the pieces of evidence that pointed toward forced movement provoking when people were debating this question). Same for gravitation weapons.
It is important to check the specific abilities, before treating them differently.
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Helpfully, at 9th level Armor Storm, I am now better at bull rushing than I am at my regular unarmed attack, if I get a 20' move beforehand with my Juggernaut Boosters.
Last week, at the FLGS:
ME:"Does a 45 beat your KAC+8?"
HMM (GM): "...Yes?"
ME: "By how much?"
HMM: (maths) "20?"
ME: "Okay I do 62 damage and push the crab 6 squares."
HMM: (exasperated) "anything else?"
ME: "oh yes, 1d6 bleed."
HMM: ...
ME: "We're still friends, right?"
Now to find companions that actually threaten squares.
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By Zoggy... you threaten the square that you shove someone out of.
...and I guess you could carry around some spare bayonet mounts to hand out to people that don't already have them so that everyone will threaten?