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As the title says.
Weapon crystals are listed in the weapons section, and fusions can be added to any weapon. So it seems straight forward.
But a lot of people think that it's not meant to be this way.
Argument For: Nowhere does it refer to Solarian Weapon Crystals as Fusions, nor does it say that they cannot accept fusions. They are specifically listed under the heading "Weapon Descriptions." They are in the "Weapons" Chart. While they do work in some ways like Weapon Fusions, they aren't actually weapon fusions.
Argument Against: Unless you are smashing the crystal against someone's head like a rock, then it's not a weapon. The damage is only a thing when it's inside a solar weapon. It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to put a fusion on the crystal when they serve similar purposes.
I have made a positive contribution!!
Now, to bring balance to the universe I'll be forced to make a Mystic of Zon-Kuthon named Nippleclamp Joe.
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And I say butter side down!!
Wait... Hold on a minute...
I have no strong feelings about this one way or the other!
I hope for "yes", but expect a "no". If you were originally intended to do this, I feel it would have been spelled out. But it would be a nice addition to the class.
Yeah. I hope it's a yes. Solarians could use the extra boost, and there are aspects of their class that don't make sense without it.
Argument For: For example, under Sunbolt (p106) it specifically states that if you have a solarian weapon crystal that changes the type of damage a Solar Weapon does, you can have your Sunbolt deal that kind of damage.
Here is the thing...
No Solarian crystals do that.
Solarian crystals CAN'T do that specifically on page 170. As they state the extra damage will be of a special type but Solarian Crystals do not change the weapon damage type.
There is only one way to do that: You have to apply a fusion to a weapon.
Or it could be a typo.
Argument Against: On page 170, it reads, "A crystal within a mote can’t be interacted with in any way other than via abilities that specifically target a mote."
This suggests that fusions don't work with crystals, as fusions don't specifically state that they can target a mote.
--> Counter Argument For: Nothing in the book states that it specifically targets a mote. Not even in the Solarian class. A search for the word 'mote' only shows it on p101 under the description of what a mote is and on p170 under weapon crystals.
That line is about protecting the crystal once it's in a mote, as motes generally can't be targeted.
Argument Against: On p101, it reads, "Only you can interact with your solar manifestation, whether in mote, armor, or weapon form. No other creature or effect can affect your solar manifestation in any way, including disarming or sundering it."
Fusions are an effect and thus cannot be applied.
--> Counter Argument For: Weapon crystals are a violation of this rule. Fusions don't affect the Mote, but rather apply an effect to the weapon crystal, which then can be applied to the mote. You can't attach a fusion directly to the manifestation without applying it to a crystal first. Applying a fusion to a crystal allows you to bypass the general rule forbidding things from affecting the manifestation, because crystals have a specific rule allowing them to do so.
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I'd prefer if the FAQ just allowed you to treat your solar weapon as a weapon of your level, so you can just put fusions on it directly.
Except you do hit people with those, just really fast and only once. If you can put a fusion on a crystal you have a permanent fusion.
Not saying that you can or can't just that metaphysition's argument has merit.
I would say no because of this line in the weapon section:
"Weapons of the same type are of similar size and have similar mechanical properties. Weapon types include basic melee, advanced melee, small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and special weapons. Ammunition and Solarian weapon crystals are also listed here."
I would say no because of this line in the weapon section:
"Weapons of the same type are of similar size and have similar mechanical properties. Weapon types include basic melee, advanced melee, small arms, longarms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and special weapons. Ammunition and Solarian weapon crystals are also listed here."
Except you can put fusions on ammo.
But there's a fundamental difference, ammo is a temporary bonus. A crystal is a permanent bonus. It basically comes with a fusion or two built in. Ammo doesn't.
While that is true, generic weapons's fusions are tied to those specific weapons with adavtages and disadvantagea that balance things. With carystals you're weapon doesn't really change you are just deciding which fusion you want.
I'm not necessarily against crystals getting fusions, but using ammo as a justification doesn't make sense.
But there's very little opportunity cost. If I put a fusion ammo, once I use it it's gone. If I put it on a crystal I have it forever. If I upgrade I don't sell that crystal, i keep it in a pocket with 5 other's I've picked up during my career. And if I need entangle I pull that one out and use it and still go good damage because the weapon sets a solid base amount. You get super quick replacement choices no one else would have on a permanent basis.
But I can't carry 5 doshdo's in my pocket...
There's a limit to how much you can do that though. And it would really make sense to have a plethora of level 5 crystals with different damage types, the cost is low, but if I need to bypass a specific ER I just hot swap it AND I still do damage that's reasonable, you can't to that with regular weapons.
This is silly.
Solarian Weapon Crystals are classified and described in the equipment chapter in the section on weapons.
=> Solarian Weapon Crystals are weapons.
Weapon Fusions may be applied to any weapon of an appropriate level, unless the Fusion specifies otherwise.
=> Solarian Weapon Crystal + Weapon Fusion = Solarian Weapon Crystal with a Fusion.
It really is that simple.
Guys,
If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?
If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.
Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...
Guys,
If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...
Except that Solarian weapon crystals are located in the "weapons" section of that chapter, not the "weapon materials" or "weapon fusions" section. It included getting their own weapon table.
Guys,
If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?
But Solarion damage hedging out Soldier (narrowly) isn't dependent upon the Solar Weapon's damage. It is because of their Revelations and Photon Attunement. If advanced melee weapons outscale Solar Weapon then Solarion players will just use those instead. Most Solarions will probably already have levels where found advanced melee weapons will be better than their Solar Weapon and none of the Revelations require the Solar Weapon.
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Guys,
If you want to argue mechanical balance, then you have to run numbers.
Since the damage numbers for Solarians place them above Soldiers, maybe Weapon Crystals shouldn't get the buff?If you want to argue CRB placement as proof, that fails because other weapon augmentations (which are not weapons) and special materials for weapons are in that section too.
Since Weapon Crystals augment a weapon, they go in that section.
Since they are augmenting a weapon, and cannot be wielded unto themselves, I would say they aren't a weapon and cannot receive a weapon fusion. An armor Solarian also cannot use them as a weapon, despite having a mote they can place a crystal in.Hmm...I'd intended to come in as a neutral party and reexamine this objectively (until such time as the developers chime in), but I wound up convincing myself pretty soundly that in no way can or should fusions work on Weapon Crystals. Unless, of course, the developers disagree...
As Don't go into Power Dome A notes the problem here is that you're just forcing Solarians to use advanced melee weapons other than their Solar Weapon, not actually making a balance change at all. They already do more damage (only a little, but still) add in Weapon Fusions not being allowed on Crystals and there's no sufficient reason to ever use a Solar Weapon.
And that's pretty disappointing. So you've basically made the game less fun for no reason.
As Don't go into Power Dome A notes the problem here is that you're just forcing Solarians to use advanced melee weapons other than their Solar Weapon, not actually making a balance change at all. They already do more damage (only a little, but still) add in Weapon Fusions not being allowed on Crystals and there's no sufficient reason to ever use a Solar Weapon.And that's pretty disappointing. So you've basically made the game less fun for no reason.
Exactly this. Ignore solarian vs soldier damage numbers, that's irrelevant to this argument. Looking solely at advanced melee weapon compared to the solar weapon WITH a equal level crystal equipped and the price and damage is always roughly equivalent, with the two-handed advanced melee weapons almost always being the winner.
So if advanced melee weapons do more damage at the same price point, and nothing in RAW straight up denies weapon crystals having fusions, why would you deny solarian players this option? Why make their defining class feature objectively inferior to standard weapons, when allowing it simply lets them stay on par? As DMW said, you're just making the game less fun for no good reason.
I have little preference either way since I see fusions as secondary, if not tertiary, in importance when it comes to spending. But Weapon Crystals augment a weapon. It adds damage to a Solarian's weapon and in no way can it be used to do damage on its own. It seems clear that a fusion does not go on an augmentation, so does not go on a Weapon Crystal.
This is not saying Solarian's do or don't deserve fusions.
Why aren't supporters arguing that one could put a fusion on the mote itself? It's what becomes the weapon, so that actually makes more sense to me. It also shakes off the complaint that it's too easy for a Solarian to switch out fusions. Of course, there's no tech level...
But what fusions are people thinking Solarians need in order to be competitive with Soldiers? Or as fun as Soldiers?
As Tarik pointed out, Solarian weapons have many cool mechanical advantages over other melee weapons. If we are playing the fairness game, shouldn't other melee weapons have access to those abilities too?
Or maybe each should keep to their own lanes?
Except we don't know if there are or aren't supposed to be any lanes!
We really need the designers' input, as they've done the crunching & theorycrafting. FAQ indeed...
You can't put fusions on a note because notes don't have an item level, and fusion rules sort of need one for them to work properly.
A lot of the new discussion seems to be rehashing the points made in the opening post and following posts outlining the general arguments.
It may be beneficial to go back and read the Arguments For, Arguments Against, and Counter Arguments presented.
Crystals actually err toward being a little cheaper than their immediate counterparts. Not by a super significant amount mind you, but there is a semi decent discount by and large plus any savings on batteries.
As it stands the 2-hander does more damage and has the same benefit of a Solar Weapon with the Solar Crystal installed.
There is also the issue that the Solar Crystals cost as much as full weapons do.
Where is this decent discount you speak of?
At ilevel 8, the three options for solar crystals cost between 9.2 and 9.8k. The melee weapons for ilevel 8 range between 8.5 and 10k.
At ilevel 11 the crystals cost between 24k an 26.2k. The melee weapons range between 22.6k and 26.3k.
At ilevel 14 the crystals run between 69.8k to 81.3k and the melee weapons run at 64.4k to 79.5k.
So when you actually compare the most expensive crystals vs the most expensive melee weapon at various ilevels, you see that the price difference is extremely close, and sometimes it's the melee weapons that are cheaper. And when you compare the cheapest options, the melee weapons are almost always cheaper.
There is a saving on batteries, but that is going to be a negligible cost as players level up, loot piles of batteries from enemies, and get a ship able to charge them for free.
I don't see any valid argument that the solar weapon saves a meaningful amount of money over the course of a standard game.
