As the title. What do you think is the most effective build to make use of this archetype?
Yeah, definitely a reasonable archetype for a Soldier.
I think it's also a viable option for a Mystic or Technomancer, though there the trade is more painful.
And I agree with HWalah that the phrenic adept (and full replacement archetypes in general) aren't viable for the other 4 classes, who have to give up their key class abilities until lvl 8. Especially the Solarian, since revelations are *the* draw of the class.
You don't lose secondary fighting on the soldier, it just gets delayed a level. All the soldier loses is almost all the combat feats. See page 127:
"You don’t gain the secondary fighting style or secondary style technique class features at 9th level. Instead, you gain both at 10th level, and you don’t gain the combat feat normally gained at 10th level. You still treat your effective soldier level as your soldier level – 8 for the purposes of your secondary style techniques."
That's actually what I'm playing as my first PC: a Psychic Soldier.
One thing I was questioning when I was reading the archtype stuff the other night is do you only lose the various things on a level where the archtype gives you something or do you lose things like mechanic tricks even on levels where the archtype does not give you something special?
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One thing I was questioning when I was reading the archtype stuff the other night is do you only lose the various things on a level where the archtype gives you something or do you lose things like mechanic tricks even on levels where the archtype does not give you something special?
You only lose features for levels where the Archetype is replacing.
I came to similar conclusions regarding the classes; couldn't really justify it on anything but a soldier. But is it really worth it? It doesn't seem to add to combat effectiveness, nor does it fill it skill gaps...
I thought both archetypes were so underwhelming that I had no desire to do either of them.
Same. Looking at them I felt like it was variant multiclassing, except I didn't get a second class's benefits, just some ho hum abilities.
Actually think variant multiclassing could be an awesome way to do archtypes. Starfinder, like pathfinder before it, is pretty antogonisic to multiclassing. Anything more than a dip in another class quickly becomes debilitating without a very optimized build. Doing a system VMC based archetypes would allow for more of the multiclass feel that you could get with 2nd ed D&D without being overwhelming to the point where everyone must mulitclass.
I came to similar conclusions regarding the classes; couldn't really justify it on anything but a soldier. But is it really worth it? It doesn't seem to add to combat effectiveness, nor does it fill it skill gaps...
You may not be aware of this, but there is more to the game than combat checks and skill checks. Like, there's at least two more pillars beyond combat, not to include the entire role-playing aspects of the game.
I came to similar conclusions regarding the classes; couldn't really justify it on anything but a soldier. But is it really worth it? It doesn't seem to add to combat effectiveness, nor does it fill it skill gaps...You may not be aware of this, but there is more to the game than combat checks and skill checks. Like, there's at least two more pillars beyond combat, not to include the entire role-playing aspects of the game.
But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability. Our 2 archetypes trade out the core features of classes, and in exchange you get...mediocrity.
That's not to say they couldn't fit into a good build, but as is they don't offer enough to be attractive. I don't look at them and think "I could make a pretty cool character with this" and I've done that with almost every PF archetype (even some of the absolute garbage ones). There's no enticing reason to take either one when feats, items, or racial traits can do these things without gutting the class.
The best use of Phrenic Adept is keeping the bin from being blown away.
But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability.
No.
Roleplay is in-character decisions using in-character knowledge, and is independent on what your stats and buttons are on a character sheet. Skills and abilities on a character sheet can be used to assist roleplay, but they are not the controller of them.
The game is more than just pressing the buttons available on you character sheet. Exploration, Social encounters, and even Combat are more than the options presented in the book.
The options on your character sheet are one aspect of the game. They are not the entirety of the game. Far from it.
Phrenic Adepts can get Blindsense (Emotion). So, all you have to do is piss your enemy off, and then you can unerringly fight them.
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Is the reverse of the page it's printed on useful? You might be able to use it for toilet paper.
If you are shirren or lashunta and grab that magic ring you can communicate telepathically really far. I think 120 feet, not sure.
Actually you get to see magic sources with the emotion descriptor. So unless you got them with a spell first this doesn't work. ..
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Actually...
While your phrenic senses are active, you also gain blindsense (emotion) with a range of 30 feet. See page 262 for more details about blindsense.
I stand corrected, that's good. I can't believe I missed that.
It is kind of tucked away there at the end. But yeah, having the ability to fight an opponent you couldn't normally see is a nice advantage for a Soldier to have.
But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability.No.
Roleplay is in-character decisions using in-character knowledge, and is independent on what your stats and buttons are on a character sheet. Skills and abilities on a character sheet can be used to assist roleplay, but they are not the controller of them.
The game is more than just pressing the buttons available on you character sheet. Exploration, Social encounters, and even Combat are more than the options presented in the book.
The options on your character sheet are one aspect of the game. They are not the entirety of the game. Far from it.
Uh... I think your RP and your skills are indeed intrinsically linked.
Roleplay is taking on the role of the character. Taking on that role means playing within the limitations of those stats.
If you have an 8 Charisma and 0 ranks in diplomacy and you walk into a social situation an RP your character saying things like, "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I would kindly like to thank you for inviting me to this most prestigious event."
They could still say that. They'd just say it in such a way that no one in the social situation would believe them.
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They could still say that. They'd just say it in such a way that no one in the social situation would believe them.
But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability.No.
Roleplay is in-character decisions using in-character knowledge, and is independent on what your stats and buttons are on a character sheet. Skills and abilities on a character sheet can be used to assist roleplay, but they are not the controller of them.
The game is more than just pressing the buttons available on you character sheet. Exploration, Social encounters, and even Combat are more than the options presented in the book.
The options on your character sheet are one aspect of the game. They are not the entirety of the game. Far from it.
Uh... I think your RP and your skills are indeed intrinsically linked.
Roleplay is taking on the role of the character. Taking on that role means playing within the limitations of those stats.
If you have an 8 Charisma and 0 ranks in diplomacy and you walk into a social situation an RP your character saying things like, "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I would kindly like to thank you for inviting me to this most prestigious event."
Like when someone who is not the Rock quotes the Rock.
Like when someone who is not the Rock quotes the Rock.They could still say that. They'd just say it in such a way that no one in the social situation would believe them.
But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability.No.
Roleplay is in-character decisions using in-character knowledge, and is independent on what your stats and buttons are on a character sheet. Skills and abilities on a character sheet can be used to assist roleplay, but they are not the controller of them.
The game is more than just pressing the buttons available on you character sheet. Exploration, Social encounters, and even Combat are more than the options presented in the book.
The options on your character sheet are one aspect of the game. They are not the entirety of the game. Far from it.
Uh... I think your RP and your skills are indeed intrinsically linked.
Roleplay is taking on the role of the character. Taking on that role means playing within the limitations of those stats.
If you have an 8 Charisma and 0 ranks in diplomacy and you walk into a social situation an RP your character saying things like, "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I would kindly like to thank you for inviting me to this most prestigious event."
Wow that is amazing how well that clarifies it.
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but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?
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My first time playing an evil character made a cleric of druaga. (Babylonian demon god) I encountered a paladin while alone once (this character did not do well without meat shields) During the conversation he asked me my name. (ow I was super cereal about this evil character so I named him Vex Von Vader about as evil a name as a person can have). So I think I need a good guy sounding name. Vex: my name is uhh good....man yes goodman *thinking* first name first name something normal *end thought* John yeah John Goodman... (then it hit me and everyone else.)
SLAs that scale off key ability score is nice for a soldier, who only gives up bonus feats.
Note: you cast from the list, not you pick one from the list as your power.
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Pretty much what has already been said:
1) A soldier phrenic adept is a decent "psychic warrior," possibly with the arcane assailant primary style. Not as good as a solarian, but not bad. With no need to invest in Cha, the Minor Psychic Power feat chain can be used to pick up a couple more "spells" (before 9th level, too); I could see starting with 11 Cha and taking Minor Psychic Power at 1st, a combat feat at 3rd, a combat feat or Psychic Power at 5th, and a combat feat or Psychic Power at 7th. Even the Major Psychic Power feat for status isn't a bad choice at some point.
2) A technomancer phrenic adept is a bit of a downgrade in power, but adds some more versatility to an already versatile class. Again, not as good as a normal technomancer, but not bad; also, a good fit for certain concepts.
3) A mystic phrenic adept is also a bit of a downgrade in power, as well as there being an overlap in what the archetype provides vs. what it replaces in some cases (depending on the connection). Again, not bad, but can fit with some concepts better than a normal mystic.
4) Most of the rest of the classes should avoid the archetype, IMO. A mechanic phrenic adept might be playable (investing heavily in the drone or focusing on hacking and Exocortex Mods), but the rest of the classes give up too much.
TL;DR: One decent option, two OK options, and one marginal option for the archetype. Out of seven classes, that's probably about right for an archetype in the new system.
Uh... I think your RP and your skills are indeed intrinsically linked.
Roleplay is taking on the role of the character. Taking on that role means playing within the limitations of those stats.
There is an entire philosophy of playing the game which states that you shouldn't limit yourself to your stats, but rather play your character as best you can and let the dice determine what can and can't be done.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with it, but there are other definitions to role-playing than limiting yourself to a stat. People usually argue this as a counter to the idea that 8 int = retarded.
If you have an 8 Charisma and 0 ranks in diplomacy and you walk into a social situation an RP your character saying things like, "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I would kindly like to thank you for inviting me to this most prestigious event."
The character would be socially a blunderer. They'd say, "Right. I came because I got your letter. There going to be any food here or whatever? Also yeah happy birthday or some (censored) your lordship."
This is a good example where you wouldn't just dictate what you say as a reflection of your stats, but rather attempt to say something and let the dice decide how it plays out. I call this an In-character Decision (Thanking them for the invite) and Conflict Resolution (their reaction to your words). I'll talk about these below.
Also, why does 8 Cha mean you're socially retarded? It's only 5% less on the die than the average person.
You can RP and say, "I draw my sword like quicksilver in one fluid motion."
But you can't do that if you don't have quick draw or at least a +1 BAB.
What you're talking about are descripters from results of the die or feats.
When it comes to use of skills and role-playing, there are two concepts:
In-Character Decisions and Conflict Resolution.
The In-Character Decisions is the role-playing aspect of the game. This is when you make a decision about what your character is going to do. This is the role you've taken. That decision can be based on many things, such as character knowledge, personality, etc.. There are three ways to make an in-character decision: Role (using in character knowledge), Meta (using Player knowledge), and random (using a dice to decide).
Conflict Resolution is when you can't make any further decisions until a conflict is resolved, be it a skill check, the swing of a sword, or something else. This is usually your skill checks and combat checks, but it can also be resolved by the GM simply dictating a pass or fail without the use of dice.
If we take your invitation example, how do the other guests receive the thanks? The way you describe it, it seems you're advocating that the GM dictate how it's resolved. If we were to roll a die, the elegant version may have rolled a 1, whereas the inelegant version may have rolled a 20. What happens then? Perhaps the Lord says, "Oh thank Space, someone (censored) normal here. Come on, I'll show you where the food is." Either way is a valid approach, they key is that there are more than one way to resolve it.
When the OP says that he only cares about the aspects of the game that can be solved through combat checks and skill checks, what he's saying is he only cares about conflict resolution via means of what the dice say. He's skipping all the other aspects of the game - aspects which may not require conflict resolution or have conflict resolution declared by the GM. Or aspects of the game which open up new avenues of adventure or help solve problems via any means other than the roll of the dice.
For example, Phrenic Adept grants telepathy and two additional languages, meaning you can now communicate without speaking and it opens two new lines of communication with two new races that you may not otherwise have access to. And if you ever learn one of those two languages through another means, you get to pick a new language for your telepathy. Neither of those directly add to a weapon attack or a skill check, but both can be useful in many situations and can even solve problems that otherwise couldn't be solved (such as bypassing a language barrier, or playing telepathic mind games on an unsuspecting victim).
So if there's someone at the party who speaks that language, you'll be able to start a dialogue with them and open up new avenues of the story. Or perhaps you could give your ally information silently as they communicate with the Court. Or many other ways to use it that require a bit of creative or divergent thinking.
But he doesn't care about that, because it doesn't directly help with a button on the character sheet - it doesn't add to a combat ability or skill. He seems to be trapped in the idea that what's written down on the character sheet is the only or more important aspect of the game, and those numbers have to be maximized. He doesn't think beyond the character sheet. If he did, he may find uses for abilities which don't directly add to combat and skill checks.
Doesn't change the fact that it is mechanically underwhelming. Most Pathfinder archetypes had some sort of defining feature, be it the Scout Rogue's "move 10 feet, automatically get sneak attack" feature or Sacred Shield Paladins flipping from overwhelming offense to unmoving defense. The defining feature opens up potential for a drastically different type of character than an unarchetyped character.
In the case of the Phrenic Adept Soldier, what if I just put a couple points in charisma and maybe went with a +Charisma theme (Xenoseeker)? I can use my extra feats to pick up improved iron will and minor/normal/major Psychic power, put some skill ranks into culture for languages, and buy a mind link circlet. At 6th level we get the first phrenic adept ability I can't replicate with just feats,skills, or items, and it is the ability to spend Resolve to get a super limited Arcane Sight and blindsense 30 (Emotions). At 9th, 12th, and 18th level it gets better SLAs. Can't replicate those.
You trade away your 2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th, 12th, and 18th level bonus feats for some neat little tricks. It'll only become less and less appealing as more content is released (more feat options means more loss to consider with the archetype).
Edit: there is an item level 7 tech item (motion detector) that can be used as a move action to get blindsense (vibrations). A little more cumbersome, but...costs battery, not resolve.
Pathfinder archetypes are using a very different design method: They are tailored to a specific class and have more flexibility in which class features to replace/progression of archetype features. Also, some Pathfinder archetypes seem to be "backdoor" fixes for some classes.
Starfinder archetypes are designed for use with all classes; also, which class features get replaced at a given level (for a corresponding archetype feature) are fixed. Mechanically, this makes Starfinder archetypes less flexible.
Given the different methodology and (seemingly) less need to "fix" the core Starfinder classes, not to mention Themes filling some of the design space as "background archetypes" in Pathfinder, the very limited sample of archetypes so far is... somewhat useful for some characters. That they are not straight upgrades or "must haves" is (IMO) not a detraction.
Edit: there is an item level 7 tech item (motion detector) that can be used as a move action to get blindsense (vibrations). A little more cumbersome, but...costs battery, not resolve.
It also requires a move action each turn to use (which means no Full Attacks or Trick Attacks), and must be held in your hand, requiring you to forgo using 2-handed weapons or be a kasatha.
You can potentially get around the hand issue with a datajack and comm unit, since the latter can explicitly be upgraded to work as a scanner. At higher levels, you can buy an extra arm if you have the strength to handle it. It still demands the move action every time, but on the other hand, resolve has more uses than a specific item's battery charges do.
I still stand by the statement that these archetypes will grow less attractive the more rules content is released for the features they replace.
Uh... I think your RP and your skills are indeed intrinsically linked.
Roleplay is taking on the role of the character. Taking on that role means playing within the limitations of those stats.
There is an entire philosophy of playing the game which states that you shouldn't limit yourself to your stats, but rather play your character as best you can and let the dice determine what can and can't be done.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree with it, but there are other definitions to role-playing than limiting yourself to a stat. People usually argue this as a counter to the idea that 8 int = retarded.
If you have an 8 Charisma and 0 ranks in diplomacy and you walk into a social situation an RP your character saying things like, "Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I would kindly like to thank you for inviting me to this most prestigious event."
The character would be socially a blunderer. They'd say, "Right. I came because I got your letter. There going to be any food here or whatever? Also yeah happy birthday or some (censored) your lordship."
This is a good example where you wouldn't just dictate what you say as a reflection of your stats, but rather attempt to say something and let the dice decide how it plays out. I call this an In-character Decision (Thanking them for the invite) and Conflict Resolution (their reaction to your words). I'll talk about these below.
Also, why does 8 Cha mean you're socially retarded? It's only 5% less on the die than the average person.
You can RP and say, "I draw my sword like quicksilver in one fluid motion."
But you can't do that if you don't have quick draw or at least a +1 BAB.
What you're talking about are descripters from results of the die or feats.
When it comes to use of skills and role-playing, there are two concepts:
In-Character Decisions and Conflict Resolution.
The In-Character Decisions is the role-playing aspect of the game. This is when you make a decision...
Blah Blah. First of all, this is completely off topic. Second of all, you presume to know how i like to play my games based on a single comment I made. Third of all, you act like I'm somehow playing the game wrong for enjoying a mechanically optimized character. Take your elitism and go elsewhere with it. Make your own thread, and complain about how I'm playing the game wrong and enjoying it incorrectly there. Thanks.
It's not a roleplay/rollplay debate, though. Both are aspects of the game, applied in fairly equal measure. It is a role-playing game, but it's also a roll playing game because many of the conflict resolution aspects of the game require us to roll dice. To ignore one and focus on the other removes a part of the game.
To claim that the archetype is a poor choice because it doesn't enhance one portion of the game, while ignoring the benefits it can provide to other portions of the game isn't a good analysis of the archetype.
The OP stated that it's a poor archetype because it doesn't advance combat and skill rolls. There's more to the game than just that, and the Phrenic Adept archetype can open opportunities in those other areas of the game.
A ranged soldier gives up almost nothing for this because of the derth of must have ranged combat feats(which I think is a feature not a bug) Melee soldiers its a little tougher call/
Consider this character:
Lashunta (Korasha) Priest* Soldier Phrenic Adept
1st level: 16 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 12 Int, 9 Wis, 12 Cha; Student (Mysticism, Perception); Primary Fighting Style (Blitz); Minor Psychic Power (telekinetic projectile)
3rd level: Gear Boost (Melee Striker); Weapon Focus (Advanced Melee Weapons)
5th level: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int; Psychic Power (mink link)
7th level: Gear Boost (Sonic Resonance); Deadly Aim
Starting gear: Cestus Battleglove (100 cr), Assault Hammer (95 cr), Needler Pistol (105 cr), Light Reaction Cannon (250 cr), Lashunta Ringwear I (415 cr).
Upgrade to a Thunderstrike Pulse Gauntlet (475 cr) and Longsword (with Called fusion; 495 cr) as soon as possible. Personal Upgrade (+2 Str; 1,400 cr) when affordable.
At 7th level, weapons/armor could be: Thunderstrike Pulse Gauntlet (with Entangling fusion; 835 cr), Fangblade (with Called fusion; 6990 cr), Static Arc Pistol (750 cr), Squad Machine Gun (with Dispelling fusion; 2740 cr), Golemforged Plating III (with Infrared Sensors and Jump Jets; 6,700 cr). Punch them with the pulse gauntlet, then hit them with the fangblade while they're flat-footed (Sonic Resonance). A good amount of skills and abilities to use outside of combat, as well.
*- primarily for Mysticism as a class skill; Yaraesa or Eloritu might be good choices for religion
I came to similar conclusions regarding the classes; couldn't really justify it on anything but a soldier. But is it really worth it? It doesn't seem to add to combat effectiveness, nor does it fill it skill gaps...You may not be aware of this, but there is more to the game than combat checks and skill checks. Like, there's at least two more pillars beyond combat, not to include the entire role-playing aspects of the game.But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability. Our 2 archetypes trade out the core features of classes, and in exchange you get...mediocrity.
That's not to say they couldn't fit into a good build, but as is they don't offer enough to be attractive. I don't look at them and think "I could make a pretty cool character with this" and I've done that with almost every PF archetype (even some of the absolute garbage ones). There's no enticing reason to take either one when feats, items, or racial traits can do these things without gutting the class.
They were obviously discussing meta game use of abilities and not knocking on role playing. To come in all high and mighty to rail road the discussion is pretty rude.
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What can a phrenic envoy actually DO though? They suck in combat and, though they have lots of skills, they won't really have any abilities to support them.
That doesn't leave them with much. It's kind of like playing an expert instead of a bard in Pathfinder.
I came to similar conclusions regarding the classes; couldn't really justify it on anything but a soldier. But is it really worth it? It doesn't seem to add to combat effectiveness, nor does it fill it skill gaps...You may not be aware of this, but there is more to the game than combat checks and skill checks. Like, there's at least two more pillars beyond combat, not to include the entire role-playing aspects of the game.But the means to actually represent your role-playing are tied into skills and combat ability. Our 2 archetypes trade out the core features of classes, and in exchange you get...mediocrity.
That's not to say they couldn't fit into a good build, but as is they don't offer enough to be attractive. I don't look at them and think "I could make a pretty cool character with this" and I've done that with almost every PF archetype (even some of the absolute garbage ones). There's no enticing reason to take either one when feats, items, or racial traits can do these things without gutting the class.
They were obviously discussing meta game use of abilities and not knocking on role playing. To come in all high and mighty to rail road the discussion is pretty rude.
Learn context. thanks.
Learn context...like the date of the post you are replying to.
Haha. I didn't even realize this was a revived thread. Oh well.
I'll just leave my own phrenic adept here, in case it helps someone in some way.
Wan Shi Tong, astrazoan dream prophet mystic 9 (phrenic adept) An all-knowing master telepath that keeps track of absolutely everything that falls within his long-range telepathy