| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
• At 1st-level, you are a generic "tactical pike and hidden soldier armor" soldier. You act first, you stab people, and you threaten them with attacks of opportunity.
While I've said plenty elsewhere, I will bring up that both these items are Item Level 2, meaning you have to get the GM's permission in order to have access to them at level 1, you cannot operate on the assumption that you can freely buy them.
Also with the price of these 2 items you have left no money to buy a gun... you kinda need those too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
• At 1st-level, you are a generic "tactical pike and hidden soldier armor" soldier. You act first, you stab people, and you threaten them with attacks of opportunity.While I've said plenty elsewhere, I will bring up that both these items are Item Level 2, meaning you have to get the GM's permission in order to have access to them at level 1, you cannot operate on the assumption that you can freely buy them.
Also with the price of these 2 items you have left no money to buy a gun... you kinda need those too.
Is it different for level 1? I thought you had access to items your level +1.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Still grinding the Solarion axe are we.
Have we considered moving on yet. :-)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Still grinding the Solarion axe are we.
Have we considered moving on yet. :-)
Don't see why people whose concerns aren't addressed should ignore problems that they perceive just because you don't wanna talk about it. This is a pretty unhealthy and solipsistic approach to stuff.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's insulting to imply there's only one true Solarion build.
Just saying. :-)
While I've said plenty elsewhere, I will bring up that both these items are Item Level 2, meaning you have to get the GM's permission in order to have access to them at level 1, you cannot operate on the assumption that you can freely buy them.This is untrue. As per page 167, "the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level + 1, and at major settlements items up to your character level + 2."
Also with the price of these 2 items you have left no money to buy a gun... you kinda need those too.The problem here is that downgrading to lashunta ringwear I lowers both EAC and KAC by 1 and frees up only 50 credits. Whatever you can buy for 110 credits is not going to do much.
You may as well start with the tactical pike and the hidden soldier armor, then loot the first ranged weapon you come across.
Key words being "assumes" and "no greater" and then states the GM has every right to restrict the purchasing of higher level equipment.
So if you're buying above your IL, ask your GM first.
It also states GMs should keep in mind when giving characters access to higher level equipment than they should have access to as it might unbalance the game, which is kinda what is happening with your examples and playthroughs. You're giving Soldiers higher level equipment than they should have access to.
"The problem here is that downgrading to lashunta ringwear I lowers both EAC and KAC by 1 and frees up only 50 credits"
It's also only an IL 1 item, as opposed to the hidden armor. In that case it's not a matter of freeing up credits but the fact that you are purchasing above what's expected.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's insulting to imply there's only one true Solarion build.
Just saying. :-)
One true for the given purpose, as written in the title and the first sentence. I've seen more insulting stuff in many a PF thread.
Anyway, ignoring whether you can or should buy those exact items before the game start, does it look like a good build to those with the SF book?
That is what the book says, which is what I said, while you can purchase above your level the GM can restrict it, with appropriate level being your level, not your level +1
""Appropriate level" is level + 1, or level + 2 in larger settlements. The book is quite clear about this."
That's not what the book is saying though. Your level does not go up and down depending on the size of a nearby settlement, and neither does CR. Appropriate level is an item level equal to your character level, not character level + whatever settlement is nearby.
Looking through the book this is backed up as other mentions of "appropriate level" translate direct to character level, not character level +
It's insulting to imply there's only one true Solarion build.
Just saying. :-)
One true for the given purpose, as written in the title and the first sentence. I've seen more insulting stuff in many a PF thread.
Anyway, ignoring whether you can or should buy those exact items before the game start, does it look like a good build to those with the SF book?
If you're going for a Soldier-lite glass cannon then yeah it seems okay, though the lack of HP/SP will bite you in the end.
And the DCs of your Solarion abilities will be low to the point unreliability.
It's insulting to imply there's only one true Solarion build.
Just saying. :-)
One true for the given purpose, as written in the title and the first sentence. I've seen more insulting stuff in many a PF thread.
Anyway, ignoring whether you can or should buy those exact items before the game start, does it look like a good build to those with the SF book?
If you're going for a Soldier-lite glass cannon then yeah it seems okay, though the lack of HP/SP will bite you in the end.
And the DCs of your Solarion abilities will be low to the point unreliability.
You have more effective SP than a regular Solarian though.
Since your first level is Soldier, your Resolve is keyed to your STR. With 18 STR (and climbing), you have a higher Resolve base than your typical 14 CHA Solarian, meaning you can replenish your pool of SP one more time.
So you effectively have 33% more SP than a normal Solarian.
It's insulting to imply there's only one true Solarion build.
Just saying. :-)
One true for the given purpose, as written in the title and the first sentence. I've seen more insulting stuff in many a PF thread.
Anyway, ignoring whether you can or should buy those exact items before the game start, does it look like a good build to those with the SF book?
If you're going for a Soldier-lite glass cannon then yeah it seems okay, though the lack of HP/SP will bite you in the end.
And the DCs of your Solarion abilities will be low to the point unreliability.
You have more effective SP than a regular Solarian though.
Since your first level is Soldier, your Resolve is keyed to your STR. With 18 STR (and climbing), you have a higher Resolve base than your typical 14 CHA Solarian, meaning you can replenish your pool of SP one more time.
So you effectively have 33% more SP than a normal Solarian.
Over a series of fights yes, not in a fight though. It takes 10 minutes to restore Stamina. So you're left with your lower number to hopefully get you through.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By the way, Colette, were you able to see my houserules? I wanted to specifically avoid this being the build people go for.
What do you think of the build below, then?
I agree with the underlying philosophy, but two small questions:
1. Graviton boost, reflection, and stealth warp are not bad, even when photon-attuned. If the solarian takes two of these after corona, they can reach full attunement at the normal rate by 10th level. Since solar acceleration and wormholes can both be very useful, this may well be worth it.
2. After solarian 13, why not take two more soldier levels for melee striker? (This would also give you another feat, and weapon specialization with non-small-arms guns. With a cybernetic pair of arms to hold a rifle or heavy weapon, this enables a respectable ranged back-up option.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One man, one goal
Ha! One mission
One heart, one soul
Just one solarion
One flash of light
Yeah, one god, one vision
One flesh, one bone, one true religion
One voice, one hope, one real decision
Whoa-ooh-whoa-ooh-whoa-ooh-whoa-ooh-whoa-ooh-whoa-ooh
Give me one Solarion
Yeah!
I had a dream when I was young
A dream of sweet illusion
A glimpse of hope and unity
And visions of one sweet Solarion
(But a cold wind blows)
(And a dark rain falls)
And in my heart it shows
Look what they've done to my class, yeah!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
As far as I can tell, the build below is the single most powerful solarian build for actually being a strong and durable combatant, starting from 1st level. I have already explained the troubles with being a pure-classed solarian elsewhere (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uivg?Trip-Report-My-second-Starfinder-session -this), and so it is time to patch those problems with some old-fashioned optimization.
• At 1st-level, you are a generic "tactical pike and hidden soldier armor" soldier. You act first, you stab people, and you threaten them with attacks of opportunity.
• At 2nd-level, you gain +1 damage. Hooray.
• At 3rd-level, your mobility sharply increases as you gain Stellar Rush. You should ignore the bull rush function in almost all cases. You should instead use Stellar Rush for unparalleled melee mobility.
• At 5th-level, you gain a major upgrade to your raw melee damage from Plasma Sheath. You start combat with a move action for a Plasma Sheath, and then launch into a Stellar Rush. You also gain Enhanced Resistance (kinetic), making you quite durable.
• At 7th-level, you open up combats with a move action for a Plasma Sheath and a standard action for a Corona. You now have a passive aura for damage, and anyone striking you will suffer damage. Also at this level is when you might want to drop the tactical pike and start to use your solar weapon with a solarian weapon crystal.
• After that point, the build is mostly yours to piece together. Whether you will prefer your solar weapon with a solarian weapon crystal or a high-level two-handed advanced melee weapon depends on your specific level and what you have the budget to afford.
• During this process, you completely ignore the existence of Black Hole, Supernova, graviton mode, and almost all graviton revelations. Why bother with them when you can stay attuned in photon mode for the raw damage and other benefits? Photon zenith revelations, on the other hand, may be worth it from time to time.
What do you think of the build below, then?...
Oh... my god, please stop posting your min/max whiny bullsh*t everywhere. There is no "ultimate build," in fact, genius, they've actively tried to eliminate such metagaming from the way the game was designed. Granted, I'm not 100% on board with some of the decisions they've made when it comes to DC scaling and other rules, and the game isn't perfect - barring further FAQ/errata/info - but you're last post about your experience is insightful only as far as it showed that you wanted to play a class against the way it was intended and failed.
"No way," you might say, "I should be able to build however I want."
True, you can make any character you want... but don't expect the game's core mechanics (i.e. Resolve, Stamina, Dying/Health/Stabilize system, etc etc) to simply allow you to circumvent difficulty in favor of building against the grain.
When you start favoring number-crunching ahead of the actual intent of the game - which, for brevity, I'll remind you is something called "roleplaying", and the game is a tabletop RPG (role playing game)- you take away from the very "fun" and hard work that the publishers put into the game.
Get off your soap-box about optimization and numbers and make your own homebrew decisions if things aren't panning out the way you want them to when they actively oppose the CRB.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Hey you! The way you enjoy the game is different and I don't like that! You should feel bad!"
Let the number crunchers crunch. A lot of people like that stuff. It's okay. I promise :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
When you start favoring number-crunching ahead of the actual intent of the game - which, for brevity, I'll remind you is something called "roleplaying", and the game is a tabletop RPG (role playing game)- you take away from the very "fun" and hard work that the publishers put into the game.
Roleplaying and number crunching are not remotely opposed. Heck, they compliment each other. A game where all options are viable improves roleplaying possibilities.
I don't think anyone crunching numbers and working out 'True Builds' are happy with the idea of such things existing. I like numbercrunching but I really like it when people are more free to make roleplaying-based decisions without having to worry 'Am I letting the other players down by doing so?'
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can you please stop flooding the message boards with your "Solarian is awful, Soldier blitz is the only way to play" posts. It's really annoying to see multiple threads about this. If you want to power play then fine, but these posts are redundant. You are missing the point of the table top genre. There are multiple ways to play.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That is not what the book says, Rysky. What the book does say is, "the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level + 1, and at major settlements items up to your character level + 2. The GM can restrict access to some items (even those of an appropriate level) or make items of a higher level available for purchase (possibly at a greatly increased price or in return for a favor done for the seller)."
"Appropriate level" is level + 1, or level + 2 in larger settlements. The book is quite clear about this.
Actually no. You are leaving out the critical part that says "no greater than."
Which means the top end is level + 1. It could be just level.
For fun, I just created a google doc that simulates 100 combats between the level 4 solarian pregen and the level 4 soldier pregen.
They basically just start the fight next to each other and use melee attacks. No multiple attacks or special abilities.
You can see the spreadsheet yourself here (it should simulate the 100 combats each time you visit, it will take a minute so be patient): Solarian vs Solder in a phone booth
The solarian wins between 0% and 10% of the time, usually around 3-5 percent of combats.
Solarian deals a little under 4 damage per round while the soldier deals 8.
We don't need simulations to see that the soldier has much, much higher KAC than the other classes, and the solarian's KAC is lower than the operative.
This doesn't, at all, end the conversation about solarians. I think as we start playing the game tomorrow, we can look at the solarian's utility outside of combat and see if that is balanced by its lack of survival-ability in melee combat compared to the soldier. From my take on it, the class will have some neat abilities and more skills to use than the soldier which will still make it a lot of fun to play.
I will say that if I were to have designed the game, I'd like for the solarian to win maybe 20% of the time at least.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Hey you! The way you enjoy the game is different and I don't like that! You should feel bad!"
Let the number crunchers crunch. A lot of people like that stuff. It's okay. I promise :)
I never said that number-crunching was bad, or inherently wrong. I stated that when you let that dictate your entire experience with the game you are definitely missing a good chunk of the game - and I would argue that you almost miss the point of the game.
Pathfinder/Starfinder/DnD/etc talbetop RPGs have always, first and foremost, been about telling a story and creating a vast, expansive world that the Players shape (in most cases single-handedly driving) and that the GM unfolds to them so that they can walk away with an experience as playing somebody else.
Even when you number-crunch, why are you doing it? Because you want to do X, Y, or Z... as a character you made.
Why do you give a flying frak about your stats, feats, or other abilities? Because you want to best encounters, challenges, and story... as a character you made.
So no, they're not mutually exclusive, but my point still stands. You can like it, you can get invested in it (and by all means, please, I hate playing for people in combat, learn the gorram rules for once). However, once that tops and skews your view of a class, archetype, race, storyline, core game? At that point you need to, NEED TO, shut up; take a step back, breathe, and talk with your GM. Stop flooding - needlessly, I might add - the forums hoping someone, somewhere will agree with you.
For fun, I just created a google doc that simulates 100 combats between the level 4 solarian pregen and the level 4 soldier pregen.
FYI, your damage for the solarion is off. You're missing the +2 for plasma sheath, and +1 for solar attunement.
[Which is why I absolutely hate the damage stacking for the solarion. 1d6+1d3+6+2+1 looks terrible and is just asking for players to forget one or more things. A solarion player without absolute system mastery is going to be acting out the climax of Clue the Movie on a regular basis.]
I would also say, the pregens aren't built alike. Iseph particularly and Obo are built to be combat monsters. The rest are built.. decidedly different. They hold onto outdated gear and have feats that fight with their class abilities (Navasi) or are very specific (Kesko and Altronus).
|
|
Put that encounter on a 20'x20' floating platform over a large fall. 14/14/14 solarian with Gravity Hold will save or suck on round 3 for a win 50% of the time (DC 14 vs +4 fort save) to push him over the edge and drop him. The 50% of the time that that fails, as long as he's not dead by round 3, move to the edge, move action to jump off, standard to Black Hole the soldier to him resulting in soldier falling. Next round, standard action to Gravity Hold himself and float himself down.
Besides, does your spreadsheet take into things like the Solarian supernovaing every 3 rounds for 4d6 (DC 14 vs +3 reflex save)?
EDIT: Missed that it was the pregens and not just a level 4 solarian vs a level 4 soldier. So the Gravity Hold argument doesn't stick. It's still something that an easily created battlefield control build would have though.
|
|
The solarian does not exactly strike me as a utility-oriented class.
If you want to kill people in combat and also pull plenty of weight with skills out of combat, play an operative.
What are revelations if not utilities? As many people have pointed out to you in these threads, the solarian is not designed to be the DPR king of a 1 on 1. They are designed for combat utility and battlefield control.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Put that encounter on a 20'x20' floating platform over a large fall.
Just as an aside on the setting... Starfinder construction crews bloody well better know how to build guard rails.
Just as an aside on the setting... Starfinder construction crews bloody well better know how to build guard rails.
However, once that tops and skews your view of a class, archetype, race, storyline, core game? At that point you need to, NEED TO, shut up; take a step back, breathe, and talk with your GM. Stop flooding - needlessly, I might add - the forums hoping someone, somewhere will agree with you.
Well, he's not really WRONG. Is it really skewing your view of a class to go 'The class is not good at this thing it is supposed to be good at'?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, he's not really WRONG. Is it really skewing your view of a class to go 'The class is not good at this thing it is supposed to be good at'?
There's two things I don't agree with about this statement. First we don't know for a fact that that's what the Solarion was supposed to be good at. Personally 'Frontline' doesn't mean high DPS but instead that they can survive there and people's perception of good varies quite a bit. My problem is the OP has said, multiple times that the Solarion doesn't fulfill their expectations, but, at least to me, they won't leave it alone or suggest fixes. They know there are people who disagree with them but still keep arguing. It's frankly annoying at this point.
I keep trying to remind people that this is a ROLE PLAYING game, not a pure combat game. The solarion has significantly more out of combat utility than a soldier (which, as has been pointed out elsewhere, sucks in that department).
That's really more a negative comment about the Soldier's class design...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, he's not really WRONG. Is it really skewing your view of a class to go 'The class is not good at this thing it is supposed to be good at'?
When you make a character that is built to ignore the vast majority of your class features and play the character in a one shot just to prove people wrong on a web forum then I would say yes number crunching has skewed your perception of the class and has overtaken your ability to enjoy it.
Isn't that the point of all the extra feats? Half on combat, half on out of combat.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing personal but there is nothing more silly than to use the words "one" "true" and "build" when it comes to a table top RPG.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nothing personal but there is nothing more silly than to use the words "one" "true" and "build" when it comes to a table top RPG.
That's kind of why I posted lyrics to Queen's One Vision. That song immediately got stuck in my head when I read the thread title.
Apparently, there aren't as many Queen fans on these boards as I thought there would be. :(
Nothing personal but there is nothing more silly than to use the words "one" "true" and "build" when it comes to a table top RPG.That's kind of why I posted lyrics to Queen's One Vision. That song immediately got stuck in my head when I read the thread title.
Apparently, there aren't as many Queen fans on these boards as I thought there would be. :(
Some of us have only heard their greatest hits. :-)
*offers hugs*
FYI, your damage for the solarion is off. You're missing the +2 for plasma sheath, and +1 for solar attunement.
[Which is why I absolutely hate the damage stacking for the solarion. 1d6+1d3+6+2+1 looks terrible and is just asking for players to forget one or more things. A solarion player without absolute system mastery is going to be acting out the climax of Clue the Movie on a regular basis.]
I would also say, the pregens aren't built alike. Iseph particularly and Obo are built to be combat monsters. The rest are built.. decidedly different. They hold onto outdated gear and have feats that fight with their class abilities (Navasi) or are very specific (Kesko and Altronus).
Good points all around.