When using this spell I was planning on evil eyeing first, followed by bestow curse to hit my foe with another -4 to his save resulting in a -6, and finally finishing him off with a slumber or hold person. Is that a good idea or is just slapping him with a 50% chance to miss or striking them with Amnesia better after the initial evil eye?
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It depends on the enemy.
I've never been a fan of the 50% chance to do nothing. Too high a chance of acting normally.
Against a big melee attacker that you don't want hitting your tanks as much, the -4 on attacks, saves, etc is a very good option. But if it's something big that you know has tons of HP, like a dragon, then maybe -6 con will reduce its HP enough to help your friends take it down faster. Or -6 str so it doesn't hit as often or as hard. Or -6 to the casting stat (if known) of an enemy spellcaster, which could stop them from casting their highest level spells. Of course, -6 dex is good if your front liners are having trouble getting through something's armor class.
Since it sounds like you're a witch, I'll just remind you that this is a touch spell. There are ways of casting it without being on the front line, so make sure you do that if you're squishy. Personally, I only use this spell with my "Bad Touch" cleric, who is built for front line casting.
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Bestow curse is Will negates. Rolling a d20 twice is basically a +/- 4 to whatever is being rolled.
So. If you evil eye then cackle, you've got a guaranteed debuff of -2 to the next save. If you then use bestow curse and the subject fails its save, you should have used slumber. Literally any time the curse works, you know that you gambled wrong.
Using Accursed Hex, where you can use a hex twice in a row, you could evil eye then slumber then slumber, with the second slumber mathematically being equivalent to having the bestow curse penalty applied.
My point is this: you have a save-or-die ability. Any other Will negates ability is an inferior use of your round, except a guaranteed debuff like evil eye or aura of doom.
If you can get someone in your party to use Intimidate to demoralize, that's an extra -2 on saves, by the way. Just a thought.
Or -6 to the casting stat (if known) of an enemy spellcaster, which could stop them from casting their highest level spells.
This part is wrong, ability damage/penalties only hurt DCs. Only ability drain, which actually lowers scores, would take away the ability to cast spells.
Bestow curse is Will negates. Rolling a d20 twice is basically a +/- 4 to whatever is being rolled.
So. If you evil eye then cackle, you've got a guaranteed debuff of -2 to the next save. If you then use bestow curse and the subject fails its save, you should have used slumber. Literally any time the curse works, you know that you gambled wrong.
Using Accursed Hex, where you can use a hex twice in a row, you could evil eye then slumber then slumber, with the second slumber mathematically being equivalent to having the bestow curse penalty applied.
My point is this: you have a save-or-die ability. Any other Will negates ability is an inferior use of your round, except a guaranteed debuff like evil eye or aura of doom.
If you can get someone in your party to use Intimidate to demoralize, that's an extra -2 on saves, by the way. Just a thought.
Hmm we do have an intimidator in our group. Are you saying I should Evil Eye first, teammate than intimidates and second round just use slumber or hold person? Basically bestow curse is a waste of a spell slot ur saying?
yeah, cause if bestow curse works that means that slumber or hold person would have worked too, so you delayed a turn for nothing.
I understand now. Hmm. That's a shame, it's a cool spell too. I guess one argument that could be made in favor of Bestow Curse is that many monsters are immune to mind affecting effects, in that case Bestow Curse would be superior?
Hmm we do have an intimidator in our group. Are you saying I should Evil Eye first, teammate than intimidates and second round just use slumber or hold person?
Pretty much. I ran a shaman through Hell's Rebels, to great effect. Except the bits with undead and constructs. Now, my character always went last (literally; it was a Flaw I took, in exchange for the equivalent of the spontaneous healing that clerics get, because we were a three-PC party, and I was the only caster, so preparing cure spells was... brutal). Usually the rest of the party would move around, draw some attention. Then at the end of the 1st round, I'd evil eye and chant (equivalent of cackle) so even on a successful save the -2 (and later -4) debuff would last longer into my next turn. Round #2, the party would Do Stuff, and if viable and the right kind of enemy, one of them would Intimidate. It's easy to spike a skill into very high numbers, so that would almost always work. Then my second turn, I'd slumber. Even at low-level, that's a guaranteed -4, and it's nap time.
Hold person is a poor-man's slumber. There's a save each round. So... why? If it's a person, it's subject to slumber. Slumber has a guaranteed duration, so nap them, and even if you're just looking to have a talk, you can probably tie them up. Coup de grace works for either, only you have more time for slumber.
At high level, the spell I mentioned aura of doom comes into play. 20ft radius around you for 10mins/level (so... two or three hours?) and enemies save or become shaken.
That's where things get nasty. Get your buddy to Intimidate first, then move in so the aura kicks in. With fear-stacking, you can use Intimidate's demoralize function as a base, so if they fail on the aura of doom save, they're now frightened, and want to flee. That isn't always good, but can be useful in tight quarters where there's no safe path. Count the attacks of opportunity. If you don't want them to flee, skip the Intimidate, and you get to make them shaken all by yourself, then pull the evil eye and/or slumber.
I will share with you that one of our end-game encounters involved evil eye hex, Heightened Persistent aura of doom, misfortune hex, and - if I recall correctly - a Heightened Persistent Dazing ball lightning.
Let me break that down for Mr Bad Guy:
1st, you're at -4 on saves.
2nd, you need to make two Will saves vs aura of doom or be another -2.
3rd, you need to make a Will save or all your d20s roll twice, take worst.
4th, you need to make Reflex saves against four balls of lightning, only each save you need to roll twice because Persistent, and each of those you need to roll twice because misfortune, and all of those are at -6, and oh... if you fail at any of those SIXTEEN saves, you're dazed for a round and don't do a damned thing.
Now, it can be argued the metamagic stacking doesn't necessarily apply exactly like that, but frankly by that point we were mythic, and I'd dumped a phenomenal amount of personal loot into resources to make it work, so... that's what happened. It also too four rounds to make happen.
For the record, my group(s) tend to sit on combination tactics for several levels... even books of an adventure, and when we hit a really important encounter, pull out the "secret" weapons we've been sitting on, and smoke a bad guy. Not exactly munchkin/max-min, because most of the time we're just moderate, but teamwork or synergy abilities we're really into because it adds a whole new way of thinking beyond "I cast fireball".
Basically bestow curse is a waste of a spell slot ur saying?
Um, yup.
It's not a bad spell in and of itself, but when you've got other resources on the table, there are often "better choices".
Bestow curse is better for witches to use against mindless. Against whom witches struggle.
Hmm we do have an intimidator in our group. Are you saying I should Evil Eye first, teammate than intimidates and second round just use slumber or hold person?Pretty much. I ran a shaman through Hell's Rebels, to great effect. Except the bits with undead and constructs. Now, my character always went last (literally; it was a Flaw I took, in exchange for the equivalent of the spontaneous healing that clerics get, because we were a three-PC party, and I was the only caster, so preparing cure spells was... brutal). Usually the rest of the party would move around, draw some attention. Then at the end of the 1st round, I'd evil eye and chant (equivalent of cackle) so even on a successful save the -2 (and later -4) debuff would last longer into my next turn. Round #2, the party would Do Stuff, and if viable and the right kind of enemy, one of them would Intimidate. It's easy to spike a skill into very high numbers, so that would almost always work. Then my second turn, I'd slumber. Even at low-level, that's a guaranteed -4, and it's nap time.
Hold person is a poor-man's slumber. There's a save each round. So... why? If it's a person, it's subject to slumber. Slumber has a guaranteed duration, so nap them, and even if you're just looking to have a talk, you can probably tie them up. Coup de grace works for either, only you have more time for slumber.
At high level, the spell I mentioned aura of doom comes into play. 20ft radius around you for 10mins/level (so... two or three hours?) and enemies save or become shaken.
That's where things get nasty. Get your buddy to Intimidate first, then move in so the aura kicks in. With fear-stacking, you can use Intimidate's demoralize function as a base, so if they fail on the aura of doom save, they're now frightened, and want to flee. That isn't always good, but can be useful in tight quarters where there's no safe path. Count the attacks...
wow pretty epic, I wish Witches had Aura of Doom :(
wow pretty epic, I wish Witches had Aura of Doom :(They do get Vision of Hell though
nice find
Bestow curse is AMAZING. Want to end a fight? Curse the target with amnesia, then just put your weapons away.
Bestow curse is AMAZING. Want to end a fight? Curse the target with amnesia, then just put your weapons away.
It seems good but one could just Slumber (making Bestow Curse obsolete) and spend the 3rd level spell slot on something else ie. Fly or haste (time patron). Striking the enemy with amnesia is good flavor, but for optimal results simply Slumbering them seems better.
Hmm, so I guess greater bestow curse would be alright since at that higher level monsters may be far more common to be immune to mind altering affects.
Curse is also more flexible. If you only want to end the fight and you have Slumber, night as well use that. If you want to really make a lasting impact on a game, you can do wonders with a well-crafted curse.
Bestow curse is Will negates. Rolling a d20 twice is basically a +/- 4 to whatever is being rolled.
So. If you evil eye then cackle, you've got a guaranteed debuff of -2 to the next save. If you then use bestow curse and the subject fails its save, you should have used slumber. Literally any time the curse works, you know that you gambled wrong.
Using Accursed Hex, where you can use a hex twice in a row, you could evil eye then slumber then slumber, with the second slumber mathematically being equivalent to having the bestow curse penalty applied.
My point is this: you have a save-or-die ability. Any other Will negates ability is an inferior use of your round, except a guaranteed debuff like evil eye or aura of doom.
If you can get someone in your party to use Intimidate to demoralize, that's an extra -2 on saves, by the way. Just a thought.
What are your thoughts on those that say not to get accursed hex? Is it worth spending a feat to put one guy to sleep?
Getting around mindless things is one of the main issues with playing a witch.
Bestow Curse is also great for when you DON'T want to kill the creature. Say, for interrogation, ransom, or bounty hunting.
As to th 50% option, it works great on melee brutes. Cut their damage in half or more. When they cannot attack, they do zero damage and you can move away. Even if they get an AoO on you, that is less than their full attack. On their turn, if they can act, they now cannot full attack, so do less then full damage.
EDIT: The 50% can be much better than -4 BAB or -6 Str, especially if they have a lot of attacks.
/cevah