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Hi there community!
A friend of mine recently asked me if I would like to play a Pathfinder game, as he knew I had some experience with P&P. So here I am, making my first character, a Rogue. But reading through all the important stuff, well everything at once in a massive mix of whatever hits my fancy at the moment, made me realize, I am not 100% sure what I am doing. Well closer to 5% of having an idea. Regardless! Here is my question... And I tried to google, but there seem to be various interpretations of said issue.
1. When exactly do you flank?
It says you need to be on the opposite side of an enemy than your companion is and be threatening that enemy. Does that mean, that a Rogue with Weapon Focus: Dagger, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Snap Shot will be able to flank without being in melee range? As in... Snap Shot states within 5 feet away from you, so... That's melee range or is that 5 feet added to the normal Threat radius around a dagger wielder?
2. When is the enemy prevented from using his Dexterity for a save throw? Aka when do I apply Sneak Attack bonus dmg to my dagger throwing?
From what I found, it's only during a surprise round and if you act before targeted enemy in the first round, but after that it's no longer viable. But what of say, tripping an enemy? Wouldn't that make him drop on the floor and be unable to dodge the incoming dagger?
3. How does Stealth work during a fight?
As in... If you remain in full darkness, can you just shoot people without them using Dex for save throws, aka applying your Sneak bonus dmg? If not, then it's utterly crap for any attempt of making a high dexterity ranged Rogue.
1) From the prd
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.So to get a flanking bonus or to benefit from anything else that requires you be flanking, you must be making a melee attack.
With snap shot, you are threatening, so an ally opposite could benefit, but you can't.
2) Flat footed opponent, so yes, surprise round or first round before they act. Also there are some feats and actions that can result in the enemy losing their Dex (feinting and similar), this includes you being stealthed or invisible.
3) you need some cover to hide behind so you can make a stealth check. This can be difficult to find
You don't have to be melee to flank. Core Rule Book page 196 states that (based on the picture) goblin and ogre flank a PC as they can draw a line between them that passes through opposite sides of PC square. If the ogre didn't have a reach to PC, though, he and the gobling would not be flanking PC.
From that I understand that Reach Weapons threaten all squares they can reach to, which would hint that with Improved Snap Shot you would be able to Flank an enemy while being 10 feet away from them, as long as you are on the opposite side from them. Or am I misinterpreting here?
If you want to specialize in consistent ranged sneak attacks, you basically have only a couple options (IMO):
1) Snakebite striker brawler 1/wizard 4/arcane trickster with Accomplished Sneak Attacker to qualify for arcane trickster. Either a sylph with the Cloud Gazer feat or acquire a Goz mask, then use obscuring mist to hide in.
2) Stalker vigilante (not technically "Sneak Attack," but close enough) with the Ranged Feint feat and the Cunning Feint and Sniper vigilante talents.
When making a melee attack
Flanking specifically refers to melee attacks. Reach attacks are still melee attacks.
Andy Brown has nailed all the key points. Snap Shot allows you to threaten a foe so you can give an ally who is making a melee attack opposite you the +2 to hit. However you can't benefit from flanking yourself even though you threaten the foe, because you are still making a ranged attack.
1) From the prd
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.So to get a flanking bonus or to benefit from anything else that requires you be flanking, you must be making a melee attack.
With snap shot, you are threatening, so an ally opposite could benefit, but you can't.
2) Flat footed opponent, so yes, surprise round or first round before they act. Also there are some feats and actions that can result in the enemy losing their Dex (feinting and similar), this includes you being stealthed or invisible.
3) you need some cover to hide behind so you can make a stealth check. This can be difficult to find
You don't have to be melee to flank. Core Rule Book page 196 states that (based on the picture) goblin and ogre flank a PC as they can draw a line between them that passes through opposite sides of PC square. If the ogre didn't have a reach to PC, though, he and the gobling would not be flanking PC.
From that I understand that Reach Weapons threaten all squares they can reach to, which would hint that with Improved Snap Shot you would be able to Flank an enemy while being 10 feet away from them, as long as you are on the opposite side from them. Or am I misinterpreting here?
Andy Brown is correct. You are overlooking this part.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Making a Ranged Attack, even if it threatens, does not let you gain the flanking bonus even though your threat can allow those making Melee Attacks to benefit from flanking. The Ogre in the example is making a Melee Attack.
Edit: The ninjas are out in force this morning. :)
(...) Stuff (...)
Doesn't it mean, that someone in melee just gains +2 to attack rolls thanks to being in melee and flanking? I don't see it stated anywhere that you need to be melee to flank. Like the only reference that might hint on it is that bonus to melee attack rolls, but it does not state that Flanking is melee exclusive.
And regarding the removal of Dex Bonus, all I could find is the Feint, Stun and Blind. There are some feats that let you remove the Dex Bonus from the enemy, but they are mostly for Str based characters, not Dex ones.
I am just curious how a Rogue can do consistent damage in a fight, if when using daggers, all they can do is 1d4 dmg? As while relying on Dex for all the rougish skills they will have low Str so no to low dmg bonus.
My general advice to a new player
1) Don't build a ranged rogue. Ranged sneak attack is really hard to accomplish.
2) If you're going to play a rogue, make sure to play an Unchained Rogue. They get to damage.
3) Don't build a rogue as your first character, they're generally...disappointing for a lot of people, especially when you don't have the system mastery to make them functional.
Edit: At Naenae, flanking is melee only. A ranged attack in no way benefits from sneak attack. Trust us. We've been through this discussion a lot of times.
Also, there's this relevant FAQ.
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
My general advice to a new player
1) Don't build a ranged rogue. Ranged sneak attack is really hard to accomplish.
2) If you're going to play a rogue, make sure to play an Unchained Rogue. They get to damage.
3) Don't build a rogue as your first character, they're generally...disappointing for a lot of people, especially when you don't have the system mastery to make them functional.
Edit: At Naenae, flanking is melee only. A ranged attack in no way benefits from sneak attack. Trust us. We've been through this discussion a lot of times.
Also, there's this relevant FAQ.
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
*heartbroken* Oh well... I will hope for Surprise Round and then daggers in melee to do reliable damage then.
As for your points. I am more driven by my own personal idea of a character, rather than being limited to optimizing the build. I like to play characters based on stealth and agility as well as sorcerers that tap into nature powers. I was pondering over rogue or druid, but since we have a wizurd already, I went for a rogue, also my GM proposed it from the two possibilities. I have some experience with similar systems, although they were vastly different when it came to mechanics themselves. So far I see Pathfinder as being very RNG + a stack of mods over some reliable handling of attributes.
My idea so far is a Half Elf Rogue with little bit of magic in her. I intend to pick the Drow Magic over the two traits it removes. I intend to also pick Minor/Major Magic as Rogue talents soon and then focus of combat. Perhaps build into Two Weapon Fighting instead of pure Throwing? We will see, as the idea is still fresh in me and is developing :)
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.
How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained Rogue
My general advice to a new player
1) Don't build a ranged rogue. Ranged sneak attack is really hard to accomplish.
2) If you're going to play a rogue, make sure to play an Unchained Rogue. They get to damage.
3) Don't build a rogue as your first character, they're generally...disappointing for a lot of people, especially when you don't have the system mastery to make them functional.
Edit: At Naenae, flanking is melee only. A ranged attack in no way benefits from sneak attack. Trust us. We've been through this discussion a lot of times.
Also, there's this relevant FAQ.
Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)
*heartbroken* Oh well... I will hope for Surprise Round and then daggers in melee to do reliable damage then.
As for your points. I am more driven by my own personal idea of a character, rather than being limited to optimizing the build. I like to play characters based on stealth and agility as well as sorcerers that tap into nature powers. I was pondering over rogue or druid, but since we have a wizurd already, I went for a rogue, also my GM proposed it from the two possibilities. I have some experience with similar systems, although they were vastly different when it came to mechanics themselves. So far I see Pathfinder as being very RNG + a stack of mods over some reliable handling of attributes.
My idea so far is a Half Elf Rogue with little bit of magic in her. I intend to pick the Drow Magic over the two traits it removes. I intend to also pick Minor/Major Magic as Rogue talents soon and then focus of combat. Perhaps build into Two Weapon Fighting instead of pure Throwing? We will see, as the idea is...
Based on what you are stating, try Swashbuckler, the Flying Blade archetype is specifically designed for throwing. You don't need to be a Rogue for traps, Pathfinder lets anyone find and disarm traps (except for disabling magic traps but you can get a trait that allows you to do that).
Rogue is just a really a bad idea for someone new to the system.
It takes a lot of work to make it even halfway combat capable.
Stealth and Agility don't have much place in Pathfinder. Sure, you are super quiet. But your buddy the fighter is tromping around in plate so it doesn't matter if they cannot detect you, they detect him.
If you go off all alone to use your stealth you just cut your life expectancy because if it fails you are all alone in a fight.
Now, a GM can accommodate you by providing situations for you to use stealth, but to do that he has to take time to let you do your thing all by yourself while the rest of the players are sitting around doing nothing. Kinda boring for everyone.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained Rogue
Wouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained RogueWouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
I said 'reliable'. One sneak attack every other round is not reliable.
Reliable sneak attacks are you doing sneak attacks on EVERY attack EVERY round. If you can do that then you can *almost* keep up on the damage the other martial classes are doing.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained RogueWouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
I said 'reliable'. One sneak attack every other round is not reliable.
Reliable sneak attacks are you doing sneak attacks on EVERY attack EVERY round. If you can do that then you can *almost* keep up on the damage the other martial classes are doing.
Unchained Rogues are in Pathfinder Unchained, a book where Paizo introduced 4 revamped versions of existing classes. In the case of Rogue, it makes them into a more playable class.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained RogueWouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
I said 'reliable'. One sneak attack every other round is not reliable.
Reliable sneak attacks are you doing sneak attacks on EVERY attack EVERY round. If you can do that then you can *almost* keep up on the damage the other martial classes are doing.
So technically either be an acrobatic god and always be on a flanking position in melee, or pick another class to actually fight. One more system that hates ranged classes it seems, oh well :(
Thank you all for clarifying my doubts and answering my questions.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained RogueWouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
Unchained Rogue (or URogue) refers to the version of Rogue found in Pathfinder Unchained.
NaeNae,
If you threaten you provide a flank. Threatening is usually melee but Snap Shot allows a bow to do so.
To benefit from a flank you need to be attacking with a melee weapon. Note: Reach weapons are still melee weapons. (You made a comment that makes me think that you think they aren't.)
How to consistently benefit from sneak attack:
1) Flank with melee weapons. Use Acrobatics to can get you into flanking positions.
2) Use feats to accomplish flanking easier (such as Gang Up or certain teamwork feats)
3) Use Greater Invisibility (Ninjas have access to this)
4) Play a Scout Rogue, and have the ability to Pounce from another source.How to get dexterity to damage:
1) the Agile weapon property
2) the feat Slashing Grace
3) the feat Dervish Dance (Scimitar only)
4) the class Unchained RogueWouldn't the wizard spell Vanish proc invisibility for the first attack as well? It lasts for 6 sec per caster lvl.
Also what's this Unchained Rogue class? I can't find it in the materials my GM provided.
I said 'reliable'. One sneak attack every other round is not reliable.
Reliable sneak attacks are you doing sneak attacks on EVERY attack EVERY round. If you can do that then you can *almost* keep up on the damage the other martial classes are doing.
So technically either be an acrobatic god and always be on a flanking position in melee, or pick another class to actually fight. One more system that hates ranged classes it seems, oh well :(
Thank you all for clarifying my doubts and answering my questions.
Oh no, Pathfinder LOVES ranged classes. It is just that Rogues are not a ranged class and never will be.
There are any number of classes that are devastating when you put a bow in their hands.
There are only a couple options for throwing builds though. Swashbuckler and Fighters are really the main options although other classes *could* be made to work...maybe. Throwing builds are very feat intensive.
If you want a throwing build PM me and I will give you a 12 level progression for a Swashbuckler.
Oh, if your GM is restricting the materials you have access to then throwing builds are probably out. Most of the throwing build options are in later materials.
Reading through Unchained Rogue, and isn't the class a bit overpowered? You get one Attribute to influence your attack rolls, your defense rolls and your bonus damage. Isn't it a bit... Too much for one attribute to do?
Also that Rogue Edge that grants you bonus features to skills you focus on? It's like... You make other classes a bit inferior compared to a Rogue when it comes to doing anything other than straight up combat.
Or does it sound so powerful just on the paper? Rogue seems like the out of combat god with those changes.
Nope, other classes can do far more. The Unchained Rogue *finally* makes the Rogue class halfway competitive.
As for one attribute to influence your attack rolls, defense, and bonus damage, the fact that the class is giving it to you just saves you spending a couple feats (dervish dance or slashing grace) or a +1 weapon enhancement bonus (Agile) to get it.
Seriously, Dex to damage is pretty common nowadays.
Rogue's Edge ability is mediocre. It gives relatively minor bonuses and, anyone can get it by spending a feat.
Unchained Rogue is playable, whereas the core rogue was pretty terrible.
No, stealth is automatically broken after the first attack. Its not 'they can perceive you', its 'They perceive you automatically, unless you're using the sniping rules, which use your move action'
So no rapid shot.
IMO, if you're building a first time bow-user; start with a Fighter. You'll get a ton of feats and it can allow you a reasonable number of mistakes.
If you use Strength as your primary stat you can start with a bow then pull out a greatsword when you need to Get Choppy. You can wear heavy armor if you desire and by the end of the character you'll probably have a reasonable enough understanding to start using something else that gets half the feats.
NOTE: I'd probably choose a Half-Orc Fighter and go with the Horn-Bow. Huge damage for a bow user, especially an unexperienced one.
@Weables
Shadowknyght778 is talking about the two attacks you can make while sniping using the Master Sniper feat.
Your sniping is quick enough that you can fire a small volley unnoticed.
Prerequisite(s): Expert Sniper, Rapid Shot, Stealth 6 ranks.
Benefit(s): While hiding, you can make two ranged attacks at your highest attack bonus as a full-round action and then immediately use Stealth again. You take the normal penalties on your Stealth check to remain hidden. Effects that modify sniping apply to this full-round action. These attack rolls take a –2 penalty.
Normal: You can fire only once when sniping.
And since you're sniping, you don't break stealth after the first attack.
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
****
@Shadowknyght778
As explained above, both of your attacks with Master Sniper should benefit from sneak attack damage.
Best way to get a ranged sneak attack: don't let them know you are attacking. If they cannot react to your attack, you get the sneak attack bonus.
This is why using greater invisibility works so well. As does anything that shuts down their sight but not yours.
Concealment does not work as well, as you use the sniping rules.
/cevah