Detecting Undead Among Corpses

[JDLPF]

What are the rules for determining if a corpse is an undead creature hidden among a pile of mundane corpses?

Knowledge: Religion DC 10 + HD?
Perception vs. Stealth?
Perception vs. Disguise?
Detect Undead?

[John Murdock]

i would a perception check vs either stealth or disguise(whichever is the highest) or detect undead, because knowledge religion won't help since a zombie look like a body in decomposition same for a skeleton, unless the undead in question cannot really hide like i would say a bloody skeleton, burning skeleton or any other thing like that

[Murdock Mudeater]

JDLPF wrote:

What are the rules for determining if a corpse is an undead creature hidden among a pile of mundane corpses?

Knowledge: Religion DC 10 + HD?
Perception vs. Stealth?
Perception vs. Disguise?
Detect Undead?

Detect undead would definitely work. Though if the corpses were wearing enough armor, the metal might be too thick for the Detection spell to penetrate. Knowledge religion would still be needed to identify the undead (the spell will determine their locations and HD, but not identify them).

If the undead are "disguised" as corpses, then it's a perception Vs Disguise to detect them, and if detected, a knowledge religion check to ID them.

If the undead are using the corpses to hide behind, then it would be perception vs Stealth to detect them, and knowledge religion to idenify them.

If the undead are not hiding, and are just mixed in with the corpses, only knowledge religion is required.

[toastedamphibian]

Detect undead would tell you the square, but not more than that. No way of knowing which corpse. Might even be a wraith or something insude the floor.

[Imbicatus]

Hit each corpse with disrupt undead. When you hit something undead, it will react.

[John Murdock]

Imbicatus wrote:

Hit each corpse with disrupt undead. When you hit something undead, it will react.

good idea since its a 0 lvl spell even with the rule saying it is discharge you can still cast it again and never lose the spell

[RealAlchemy]

Sprinkle holy water over the area and see what starts sizzling.

[darth_gator]

You could skip all the violence and just politely ask if there are any undead hiding in the pile...

I'll go back to lurking now.

[toastedamphibian]

Eh, disrupt undead might cause a reaction but it might not.

No visual effect is listed, undead might simply ignore the damage (especially if mibdless) and it might fail due to spell resistance.

Still, if your in no hurry, blast every corpse a dozen times...

Will give Darth more time to seal the exits.

[Murdock Mudeater]

toastedamphibian wrote:

Detect undead would tell you the square, but not more than that. No way of knowing which corpse. Might even be a wraith or something insude the floor.

While I don't think it would be exact enough to target them, it should locate them enough to distinguish between undead and non-undead targets.

[toastedamphibian]

In a "pile of mundane corpses"? No.

[John Murdock]

toastedamphibian wrote:

In a "pile of mundane corpses"? No.

after 3 round of detect undead yes

''You can detect the aura that surrounds undead creatures. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area.

1st Round: Presence or absence of undead auras.

2nd Round: Number of undead auras in the area and the strength of the strongest undead aura present. If you are of good alignment, and the strongest undead aura’s strength is overwhelming (see below), and the creature has HD of at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

3rd Round: The strength and location of each undead aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.''

since you know the location of each undead aura you know where it is since you see the aura, the corpse will have no aura so you can easily see which are undead and which are just normal corpse

[Dave Justus]

I don't think knowledge religion would apply until you have determined through some other means that it is a creature and not just a corpse.

If it was mindless undead, I'd probably have it be a flat perception DC, varying from maybe a 10 to a 20 depending on circumstances and the needs of my story. For example, I would expect that if they have been corpses and undead for a long time, while both the undead and the corpses would rot and age, I would expect them to do so differently, making it easier to tell that some of these things are like the others. Conversely, if someone had particularly tried to set up things so everything looked the same and arranged them the DC would be higher.

For an intelligent undead depending on how they chose to use the pile of corpses it would either be a stealth or disguise, or possibly I would give them the better of the two vs. the PCs perception.

All that said, it would probably not give the undead much of an advantage in combat since even if they got a surprise round I would pretty much assume it would take a move action to extricate themselves from the corpses they are hiding in.

Exactly how you want to do this though is much more a GM call than 'the Rules.'

[Dark Midian]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

JDLPF wrote:

What are the rules for determining if a corpse is an undead creature hidden among a pile of mundane corpses?

Knowledge: Religion DC 10 + HD?
Perception vs. Stealth?
Perception vs. Disguise?
Detect Undead?

Detect undead would definitely work. Though if the corpses were wearing enough armor, the metal might be too thick for the Detection spell to penetrate. Knowledge religion would still be needed to identify the undead (the spell will determine their locations and HD, but not identify them).

If the undead are "disguised" as corpses, then it's a perception Vs Disguise to detect them, and if detected, a knowledge religion check to ID them.

If the undead are using the corpses to hide behind, then it would be perception vs Stealth to detect them, and knowledge religion to idenify them.

If the undead are not hiding, and are just mixed in with the corpses, only knowledge religion is required.

Maybe if all of the corpses were wearing armor. No armor should be a freaking inch thick.

[Lathiira]

Deathwatch will also work, though it only gives you a max of 30'.

[Firebug]

Detect evil is a good one, aligned undead always have an aura. Paladins have it even easier as a move action per corpse.

[John Murdock]

Firebug wrote:

Detect evil is a good one, aligned undead always have an aura. Paladins have it even easier as a move action per corpse.

or use it like a standard detect evil (a standard action), i mean the description do not say you must use it as a move action it only say he can use detect evil at will as the spell and that he can as a move action target one object or creature

[Murdock Mudeater]

Dark Midian wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

JDLPF wrote:

What are the rules for determining if a corpse is an undead creature hidden among a pile of mundane corpses?

Knowledge: Religion DC 10 + HD?
Perception vs. Stealth?
Perception vs. Disguise?
Detect Undead?

Detect undead would definitely work. Though if the corpses were wearing enough armor, the metal might be too thick for the Detection spell to penetrate. Knowledge religion would still be needed to identify the undead (the spell will determine their locations and HD, but not identify them).

Maybe if all of the corpses were wearing armor. No armor should be a freaking inch thick.

Yeah, if the cumulative armor was 1 inch thick, should stop a dection spell.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Firebug wrote:

Detect evil is a good one, aligned undead always have an aura. Paladins have it even easier as a move action per corpse.

Most undead are not evil subtype, despite having evil alignments. Lesser undead won't detect at all via detect evil.

[John Murdock]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Firebug wrote:

Detect evil is a good one, aligned undead always have an aura. Paladins have it even easier as a move action per corpse.

Most undead are not evil subtype, despite having evil alignments. Lesser undead won't detect at all via detect evil.

undead always as an aura, 2HD or lower for faint but it still an aura, go see detect evil, only aligned creature or aligned magic item or spell can be in the do not have an aura

[toastedamphibian]

John Murdock wrote:

since you know the location of each undead aura you know where it is since you see the aura, the corpse will have no aura so you can easily see which are undead and which are just normal corpse

I read "Location" to mean "Square", same as detecting magic against an invisible creature. Or detect evil, or detect undead. Consistency.

[John Murdock]

toastedamphibian wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

since you know the location of each undead aura you know where it is since you see the aura, the corpse will have no aura so you can easily see which are undead and which are just normal corpse

I read "Location" to mean "Square", same as detecting magic against an invisible creature. Or detect evil, or detect undead. Consistency.

location do not mean square or else they would have said you know the square of the aura, or else how can you know who have a magical item on them if they are in the same square (out of battle) but when you detect for an aura you know where it is located (which mean were it is) if location were meant the square why it is also use to mean were on someone in the game or in which place someone is if it mean only square? because the last time i remember the name of a city is not a square but a location

[toastedamphibian]

John Murdock wrote:

or else how can you know who have a magical item on them if they are in the same square (out of battle) but when you detect for an aura you know where it is located (which mean were it is) if location

I would say that you can't. Multiple creatures in that square, and you are detecting an evil aura? Well, tough luck. Could be either creature, a spell on one of the creatures, or even a magic item.

[John Murdock]

toastedamphibian wrote:

John Murdock wrote:

or else how can you know who have a magical item on them if they are in the same square (out of battle) but when you detect for an aura you know where it is located (which mean were it is) if location

I would say that you can't. Multiple creatures in that square, and you are detecting an evil aura? Well, tough luck. Could be either creature, a spell on one of the creatures, or even a magic item.

i would make you refer to the last sentence of the 3rd round of detect evil

''3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.''

exact location which is not exact square, and they never say square but location, its like saying i know the location of your keys but i can be meh he only know the square were is my key poor him. i think you need to look at the definition of location in the dictionary.

with your definition of location the spell discern location ( a 8th level spell) become pretty useless since out of combat there can be more than one person in a 5 foot square.

[toastedamphibian]

The rules for "Invisible Creatures" may a strong case for the term "Exact Location" meaning "Square".

Quote:

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location....

If you want to have detect spells show you exactly where things are, it is no problem for me. But keep in mind the effect that has on visibility. If you know exactly, down to the millimeter, where that aura is originating from, then concealment is nonsensical. Detect spells would trump Blur/Darkness/Mist/Invisibility/Displacement/Mirror Image/ so on and so forth.

[John Murdock]

toastedamphibian wrote:

The rules for "Invisible Creatures" may a strong case for the term "Exact Location" meaning "Square".

Quote:

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location....

If you want to have detect spells show you exactly where things are, it is no problem for me. But keep in mind the effect that has on visibility. If you know exactly, down to the millimeter, where that aura is originating from, then concealment is nonsensical. Detect spells would trump Blur/Darkness/Mist/Invisibility/Displacement/Mirror Image/ so on and so forth.

you forgot one thing in the description it is state you know the general location and even then they say not the exact location fi greater than 5 feet, so we can easily see that if someone at 5 feet hit you you know the location, its exact location but since it is invisible you don't know where to hit since he is moving inside its 5 foot square. i don't think you know what location means and you know that a person is not stupid, you need 3 consecutive round to detect (insert anything) to show you the location so the caster will just move and you reneed to spend another 3 round

[Murdock Mudeater]

John Murdock wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

Firebug wrote:

Detect evil is a good one, aligned undead always have an aura. Paladins have it even easier as a move action per corpse.

Most undead are not evil subtype, despite having evil alignments. Lesser undead won't detect at all via detect evil.

undead always as an aura, 2HD or lower for faint but it still an aura, go see detect evil, only aligned creature or aligned magic item or spell can be in the do not have an aura

Was going to argue against, but then looked it up and sure enough, yeah, you got it right. I don't think I've ever used this spell to find undead....

Without line of sight, you won't be able to distinguish between undead, or anything else the spell detects (including items). Still enough to be on your guard.

Though with either Detect Evil or Detect Undead, there is the risk that you'll detect a very strong aura, one that stuns your character for looking. Could make an ambush much worse...

[toastedamphibian]

John Murdock wrote:

... i don't think you know what location means and you know that...

Hey, just found in an unrelated theead that ultimate intrigue has more explicit explanations for states of awareness!

Ultimate Intrigue wrote:

States of Awareness: In general, there are four states of awareness that a creature can have with regard to another creature using Stealth.

Unaware: On one end of the spectrum, a sneaking creature can succeed at Stealth well enough that the other creature isn’t even aware that the creature is present. This state allows the sneaking creature to use abilities such as the vigilante’s startling appearance. The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware. This is also true of a creature that has previously been made aware of the creature’s presence or location (see below) but is currently unable to observe the sneaking creature. In those cases, the sneaking creature can’t use abilities such as startling presence.
Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature’s presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn’t know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe. A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature’s presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).
Aware of Location: The next state is awareness of location. This happens when a perceiving character uses an imprecise sense, such as hearing or tremorsense, to discover what square a hidden or invisible creature inhabits.
Observing: The final state is when the perceiving character is able to directly observe the sneaking character with a precise sense, such as vision. This is generally the result when the perceiving character rolls higher on its opposed Perception check than the sneaking character’s Stealth result while also having line of sight to the sneaking character and the ability to see through any sort of invisibility or other tricks the sneaking character might be using.

So, "Aware of Location" = "Know what square it is in".