To have your Rogue start off proficient with a whip, I'd say choose a human, half-elf, or half-orc for your race.
They all have alternate racial traits that lets them be proficient with whips right from level 1 (well, humans & half-elves can be proficient with any weapon, orcs specifically with whips).
Hobgoblins too have an alternate racail traits which makes them proficient with whips.
Since the core Rogue is a very weak class and what you're trying to do is probably rather hard (adding insult to injury) I suggest you look at switiching to either Slayer or the Unchanied rogue. Those classes will probably fit your whip-wielder better.
First off, pack a back up one handed weapon. Whips don't really become awesome until you can threaten with them. Until then, you want to be able to do stuff like use your whip to trip enemies and then move to threaten them when they stand up. The reach of a whip means you can perform combat maneuvers without suffering AoOs, so you can potentially skip the feats along those lines.
Your 3/4 BAB is going to mean it takes you a while to get Improved Whip Mastery, sadly. Once that comes online things like Lunge can further expand your reach, and Combat Reflexes will be mandatory. Make sure you plot out your rogue talents to further your feat progression. There's a talent which gets you Weapon Focus and one that grants you any combat feat,but you can only take it once.
Your 3/4 BAB is going to mean it takes you a while to get Improved Whip Mastery, sadly. Once that comes online things like Lunge can further expand your reach, and Combat Reflexes will be mandatory. Make sure you plot out your rogue talents to further your feat progression. There's a talent which gets you Weapon Focus and one that grants you any combat feat,but you can only take it once.
Whip Mastery just needs weapon focus and BaB +2, so a Rogue should be able to grab it by level 3.
Oh, also familiarize yourself with the rules for applying different bonuses to combat maneuvers and can explain them to a DM. If you perform a maneuver with the whip, your relevant bonuses are applied to the roll. This can include weapon finesse dex instead of strength (saving you from the Agile Maneuvers feat), enhancement bonuses, and weapon focus. That's a lot more than your flat CMB.
Dirty Trick will probably be your best maneuver, since you can blind enemies to set up sneak attacks. Also, pay attention to positioning and terrain. If enemies are firing down on you from a ledge, yank them off and let your party stomp on their prone faces. Use terrain to protect yourself. Climb a tree and attack with a higher ground bonus.
Your 3/4 BAB is going to mean it takes you a while to get Improved Whip Mastery, sadly. Once that comes online things like Lunge can further expand your reach, and Combat Reflexes will be mandatory. Make sure you plot out your rogue talents to further your feat progression. There's a talent which gets you Weapon Focus and one that grants you any combat feat,but you can only take it once.Whip Mastery just needs weapon focus and BaB +2, so a Rogue should be able to grab it by level 3.
But improved whip mastery needs BAB +6,which is what makes the whip something amazing.
Whip Mastery just needs weapon focus and BaB +2, so a Rogue should be able to grab it by level 3.But improved whip mastery needs BAB +6,which is what makes the whip something amazing.
No ...? I think it's Base attack bonus +5.
No ...? I think it's Base attack bonus +5.Whip Mastery just needs weapon focus and BaB +2, so a Rogue should be able to grab it by level 3.But improved whip mastery needs BAB +6,which is what makes the whip something amazing.
Ah, no, you are right. My point still stands though. A fighter can get that feat earlier to become the ultimate reach control martial.
Ah, no, you are right. My point still stands though. A fighter can get that feat earlier to become the ultimate reach control martial.
Absolutely. But a Slayer, which has full BAB like a fighter, would be a good choice too. And Slayer has much of the backstabbing, sly feel of the Rogue, which I suspect Fiuren is after.
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I have an Elven Branched Spear unchained rogue that may be similar in strategy. Key is finding a way to increase your number of sneak attacks. You're also going to need lots of feats.
For me, I'm using Gang Up for extra sneak attacks and Phalanx Formation so I can attack from the 2nd rank.
Unchained Rogue is definitely the way to go, if it's available to you. Free finesse and dex-to-damage are amazing.
Humans have a trait to grant them 2 Proficiencies in place of their bonus feat. Take that for whip and scorpion whip, and you can use a scorpion whip to deal lethal damage, but still get the 15' reach. You won't need Whip Mastery until you're ready for Improved Whip Mastery.
I would do something like:
1) Combat Expertise
H) EWP: Whip
H) EWP: Scorpion Whip
B) Weapon Finesse
2) Combat Trick: Gang Up
3) Phalanx Formation
3) Dex-to-damage
4) Weapon Training: Weapon Focus: Whip
5) Whip Mastery
7) Improved Whip Mastery
That's all you really need. It does require INT 13 for Combat Expertise. I took a Snakebite Striker Brawler dip at level 1 to avoid that, but that does slow down getting Dex-to-damage.
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Humans have a trait to grant them 2 Proficiencies in place of their bonus feat. Take that for whip and scorpion whip, and you can use a scorpion whip to deal lethal damage, but still get the 15' reach. You won't need Whip Mastery until you're ready for Improved Whip Mastery.
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One issue with the Scorpion Whip is that it won't deal any damage to creatures with +3 or greater Natural Armor.
One issue with the Scorpion Whip is that it won't deal any damage to creatures with +3 or greater Natural Armor....
Humans have a trait to grant them 2 Proficiencies in place of their bonus feat. Take that for whip and scorpion whip, and you can use a scorpion whip to deal lethal damage, but still get the 15' reach. You won't need Whip Mastery until you're ready for Improved Whip Mastery.
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"If you are proficient with both the scorpion whip and whip, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way (as a light performance weapon) or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is equivalent to a whip, but deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus."
scorpion whips don't care about armor, it's always doing lethal.
One issue with the Scorpion Whip is that it won't deal any damage to creatures with +3 or greater Natural Armor....
Humans have a trait to grant them 2 Proficiencies in place of their bonus feat. Take that for whip and scorpion whip, and you can use a scorpion whip to deal lethal damage, but still get the 15' reach. You won't need Whip Mastery until you're ready for Improved Whip Mastery.
..."If you are proficient with both the scorpion whip and whip, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way (as a light performance weapon) or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is equivalent to a whip, but deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus."
scorpion whips don't care about armor, it's always doing lethal.
They deal lethal damage, but still have trouble with Natural Armor.
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.
Scorpion Whips "can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus" so they ignore the first restriction, but they still suffer from the second restriction regarding natural armor bonuses.
Hey, I thought it would be fun roleplay-wise to make a rogue able to deliver sneak attacks with a whip and I'm not sure how I want to build it.
The Stalker Vigilante is an alternative that you might want to consider. It seems to me that their Hidden Strike ability is, in many ways, a superior version of Sneak Attack. The Whip of Vengeance Vigilante Talent will grant you Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery as bonus feats and give early access to Greater Whip Mastery. You could have Whip Mastery at 2nd level, Improved Whip Mastery at 6th, and Greater Whip Mastery at 9th.
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Scorpion whip says "armor," not "armor bonus." I read it as a broader term that means any type of armor. I think a lot of GMs do likewise. For the OP, I'd say ask your GM. If they rule it doesn't get through natural armor, then take Weapon Training at 2nd, Whip Mastery at 3rd. Gang up 4th using Combat Trick. Phalanx Formation 5th. Use your extra EWP for Longbow. Fight with a rapier for two levels.
EDIT: Stalker Vigilante is a good alternative as Gisher suggested.
Scorpion whip says "armor," not "armor bonus."
Where does it just say "armor?" I keep seeing the phrases "armor bonus" and "armor bonuses."
Scorpion Whip
This whip has a series of razor-sharp blades inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with both the scorpion whip and whip, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way (as a light performance weapon) or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is equivalent to a whip, but deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus.
And I also see it in the FAQ.
Change the last sentence in the Ultimate Combat scorpion whip's description to say "If you are proficient with both scorpion whips and whips, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way, as a typical light performance weapon, or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is otherwise equivalent to a whip, but it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus." This change will be reflected in future errata.
What this means is that the scorpion whip is normally a light performance weapon with no other special weapon features, but that someone with both proficiencies can also use it as a whip, in which case it acts precisely like a whip in all ways (one-handed weapon, attack out to 15 feet, provoke an attack of opportunity, can use the Whip Mastery feats, etc) except that it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus.
The wording in the Whip description clearly distinguishes between "armor bonus" and "natural armor bonus" so removing the restriction against an "armor bonus" wouldn't remove the restriction against a "natural armor bonus." For the record, I think it makes no sense that you can use a Scorpion Whip to kill a man in full plate armor, but you can't even scratch a lion. Nonetheless that does seem to be what the rules say.
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My bad. I misread. I still think the intent was to remove the restriction entirely, and I've never seen lethal damage denied to a scorpion whip user at a PFS table. It still comes back to the OP asking their GM. If the answer is that it doesn't work, use the revised feat order I presented, or dip a full-BAB class, or go with vigilante.
My bad. I misread. I still think the intent was to remove the restriction entirely, and I've never seen lethal damage denied to a scorpion whip user at a PFS table. It still comes back to the OP asking their GM. If the answer is that it doesn't work, use the revised feat order I presented, or dip a full-BAB class, or go with vigilante.
The intent could very well have been to remove both restrictions. Removing both would make much more sense to me.