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In order to attack, it (a swarm) moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
Trample (Ex) As a full-round action, a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun any creature that is at least one size category smaller than itself. This works just like the overrun combat maneuver, but the trampling creature does not need to make a check, it merely has to move over opponents in its path. Targets of a trample take an amount of damage equal to the trampling creature's slam damage + 1-1/2 times its Str modifier. Targets of a trample can make an attack of opportunity, but at a –4 penalty. If targets forgo an attack of opportunity, they can attempt to avoid the trampling creature and receive a Reflex save to take half damage. The save DC against a creature's trample attack is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Str modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A trampling creature can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.
1) Trample refer overrun that target a single creature, but it affect every creature along the trampling creature path;
2) It is a Ex ability, not a weapon or natural weapon, but it refer the slam damage of the creature, and that is a natural weapon;
3) It deal the trample damage to a creature only once, and the swarm should count as a creature for that.
From the above point I think that a trample attack would damage a swarm, dealing normal damage one for turn to the swarm and the swarm will always try the reflex save as it can't make attacks of opportunity.
Thoughts?
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It never really defines trample as an area of effect attack, but rather an effect that targets a specific number of creatures, i.e. the creatures in its path.
Not sure.
The number of creatures in the path isn't a specific number of creatures. It is all the creatures in the path.
On the other hand it isn't an area effect, so it don't get the extra damage.
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Technically, fuzzy, maybe not.
In practice: hell yeah. If you look at the reasons why a swarm is hard to hurt (many critters in the same area), and what trampling is supposed to be (damage everything in its path), it's clear that it should work. I would consider trample to be an area attack because it affects everything in the path of the trample. So that means you get the +50% damage.
I consider this one of the cases where the rules are vague and the GM makes the most reasonable rules call.
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It never really defines trample as an area of effect attack, but rather an effect that targets a specific number of creatures, i.e. the creatures in its path.
Not sure.
The number of creatures in the path isn't a specific number of creatures. It is all the creatures in the path.
On the other hand it isn't an area effect, so it don't get the extra damage.If you had a spell called arrow storm that sent a single arrow at every creature within 30' of you, that would not be an area of effect spell, and would be an effect that targeted a specific number of creatures, that being the number that were within 30' of you. I wouldn't think such a spell would or should have any effect on a swarm, as a single hit from an arrow via that spell shouldn't by any more effective than a single hit from an arrow via a bow. Likewise, being trampled as one of N creatures along a movement path shouldn't be any more effective than a single stomp attack.
A 'specific number' of creatures does not have to be a number based on your level, or fixed to a certain number to fall under that definition.
Then a fireball hit a specific number of creatures: those in its area of effect and nothing outside it.
Note that a spell having a AoE isn't a requirement for it to be able to damage a swarm.
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If you had a spell called arrow storm that sent a single arrow at every creature within 30' of you, that would not be an area of effect spell, and would be an effect that targeted a specific number of creatures, that being the number that were within 30' of you. I wouldn't think such a spell would or should have any effect on a swarm, as a single hit from an arrow via that spell shouldn't by any more effective than a single hit from an arrow via a bow.
A spell that hits every single living thing in the area with its own personally targeted arrow and no specified numerical limit sounds like it would be extremely effective against swarms. After all, it's a spell that would presumably be highly effective if there were a hundred individual diminutive creatures in that area. Why should it stop being effective just because they've formed a swarm?
The point of the 'specific number of creatures' clause is that if you have an attack that kills/incapacitates up to 1 creature per caster level, it's not going to do anything meaningful to a swarm that is made of hundreds of creatures.
However, going by RAW, the swarms we're talking about would be immune to arrows, and they'd be immune to whirlwind strike as well. Not because whirlwind strike targets a specific number of creatures - it doesn't - but because both those things are weapon damage.
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I believe trample will effect swarms and get the +50% damage. My reasoning is clear if you compare it to the lightning bolt spell.
Neither require an attack roll
Both effect all creatures/objects in thier path
Both allow a reflex save for half damage
Trample is more like an AoE then anything else. It is easier to avoid hurting your allies, but not always possible. Want to kill the 7 stirges on your cleric with trample, your going to have to but him too.
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It never really defines trample as an area of effect attack, but rather an effect that targets a specific number of creatures, i.e. the creatures in its path.
Not sure.
"the creatures in its path" is not a specific number, it is a specific location relative to the trampler.
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I would never equate a physical attack to an energy attack (lightning bolt is in no way like a trample at the core function of the attack) Further I would favor the swarm's idea of being multiple targets over a trample's attack of "a path" because the swarm likely exists outside the path as well as on it. I would resolve the trample as a bludgeoning attack most of the time.
But here is where I WOULD get a little crunchy. The Trample should be more effective to swarms that are confined to the ground, lacking flight, limited by space. A horse trampling a swarm of hornets - BS. But a swarm of snakes - well, that's different.
Agree -- this is GM turf, so my opinions are only worth 2 cents.
@2bz2p - I Like it. Swarms with fly speeds are not affected, but swarms without fly speeds are affected as if its an AoE.
Trample is, by the mechanics of it, basically pushing a giant rolling pin, the size of the creature across the entire path. unless you have evasion, reflex isn't avoiding the damage, its just positioning yourself so when the damage happens, it doesn't hurt as much.
Th example arrow spell, as described, is an area of effect if it attacks everything in its area indiscriminately. Something like horrid wilting on the other hand, is a target spell, since the caster can direct the spell to affect some targets, but not others.
The presence or absence of an "area" line or "target" line in the spell are also powerful determining factors.
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Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)
Physical effects can affect deal full damage to swarms, regardless of size.
I would consider trample to be an area of effect for flightless swarms. An elephant trampling a swarm of spiders should end up with a mess of spider guts on its feet and few remaining spiders.
Years ago, I was carrying the pole of a beach umbrella. A wasp started flying around me so I tried swinging hard that thing I had in my hands, not expecting to actually hit it.
The wasp was slammed to the ground, bounced, and flew away with no apparent harm.
I cannot know if it happened to die soon to internal damage, but that episode convinced me that flying insects are quite resistant to bludgeoning damage - unless you squash them against something.
(Or maybe it's just that wasps are tough... one of them got fried by an electric device meants for mosquitos, and seemed dead. Fifteen minutes later, it was no longer inside that box. That thing is still a mystery to me!)
On the other hand, I knew a girl whose tactic against wasps was: slap them down from the air and crush them underfoot when they are on the ground.
It worked remarkably well when she did it, maybe because she was very fast to stomp them.
That said, I'd totally allow trampling swarms in Pathfinder, because realism really isn't that important :)
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Eh.. okay, less snarky attempt.
You can kill a mosquito with a backhand. Or break its wing, or blind it. At that scale ratio the difference between dead and injured is not particularly relevant. Even if you miss, the turbulence of your attempt will frequently cause it to fall.
Even if only 1% of the creatures impacted by a trampling elephant are killed, many more will fall under its feet, and others will be knocked from the swarm and scattered. Plenty of justification for narratively allowing a trampler to contribute to the dissolution of a swarm, fkying or otherwise.
I have a mosquito in my room right now. I've hit it several times with my hand. It does nothing. .
Yeah. It's a numbers game. When you swing a sword through a swarm, you probably hurt a creature or two in that swarm. But the swarm itself isn't considered damaged.
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Yeah. It's a numbers game. When you swing a sword through a swarm, you probably hurt a creature or two in that swarm. But the swarm itself isn't considered damaged.
But when you trample the bugs with feet that have a diameter of 50 cm (about 1' and 2/3) you are killing a bit more that 1 or 2 mosquitoes.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not.
So 10,000 creatures in a 10' * 10' square. About 100 in each square feet.
An elephant feet is about 2 square feet. 200 dead gnats every time it step. 4-5 steps to pass through the swarm area, so about 1,000 death vermin.Trampling animals don't have small feet (note that, rule wise, a horse can't trample). So when something that is decidedly larger and more powerful than a fly-swatter pass over them it should have some effect.
I don't know the intent, but I would allow it.
if you throw a fireball and it do not touch all of the swarm then it do no damage to the swarm since it was not all the swarm since you consider it being multiple target? ok good for you if that's the case, but alas a fireball that touch one square of the swarm is enough to deal dmg to it because a swarm is one creature for AoE or similar effect, so trample would also deal dmg to the swarm even if not all the square are hit by trample, or else colossal creature should have less damage by AoE because not all of their square are hit?I would never equate a physical attack to an energy attack (lightning bolt is in no way like a trample at the core function of the attack) Further I would favor the swarm's idea of being multiple targets over a trample's attack of "a path" because the swarm likely exists outside the path as well as on it. I would resolve the trample as a bludgeoning attack most of the time.
But here is where I WOULD get a little crunchy. The Trample should be more effective to swarms that are confined to the ground, lacking flight, limited by space. A horse trampling a swarm of hornets - BS. But a swarm of snakes - well, that's different.
Agree -- this is GM turf, so my opinions are only worth 2 cents.
No - because that is an energy attack with an area of effect and would have the effect that energy (Fire) has on the swarm. This desire to equate energy attacks with physical ones is disturbingly common on these threads.
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No - because that is an energy attack with an area of effect and would have the effect that energy (Fire) has on the swarm. This desire to equate energy attacks with physical ones is disturbingly common on these threads.if you throw a fireball and it do not touch all of the swarm then it do no damage to the swarm since it was not all the swarm since you consider it being multiple target? ok good for you if that's the case, but alas a fireball that touch one square of the swarm is enough to deal dmg to it because a swarm is one creature for AoE or similar effect, so trample would also deal dmg to the swarm even if not all the square are hit by trample, or else colossal creature should have less damage by AoE because not all of their square are hit?I would never equate a physical attack to an energy attack (lightning bolt is in no way like a trample at the core function of the attack) Further I would favor the swarm's idea of being multiple targets over a trample's attack of "a path" because the swarm likely exists outside the path as well as on it. I would resolve the trample as a bludgeoning attack most of the time.
But here is where I WOULD get a little crunchy. The Trample should be more effective to swarms that are confined to the ground, lacking flight, limited by space. A horse trampling a swarm of hornets - BS. But a swarm of snakes - well, that's different.
Agree -- this is GM turf, so my opinions are only worth 2 cents.
The problem is that you are inventing a rule and misreading another.
Misread rule:
A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
A swarm is immune to weapon damage, not physical damage. A trample attack is an attack that deal physical damage but isn't a weapon.
Stone call do physical, bludgeoning damage, but it work perfectly on swarm, as it isn't weapon damage. Stone call even get the +50% for being an area effect spell.
Invented rule: "physical damage should cover the whole area of the swarm to damage it". Totally bogus.
For those trying to invent 'realism' house rules - remember you don't have to kill every creature in the swarm, you just have to disperse them. A charging elephant might disperse a swarm even if it doesn't step on too many of the creatures in it.
Also we don't tend to apply realism to fireballs - you still get a reflex check to jump out the way even if you're in the middle of it in a 5' wide corridor.
So 10,000 creatures in a 10' * 10' square. About 100 in each square feet.
An elephant feet is about 2 square feet. 200 dead gnats every time it step. 4-5 steps to pass through the swarm area, so about 1,000 death vermin.Trampling animals don't have small feet (note that, rule wise, a horse can't trample). So when something that is decidedly larger and more powerful than a fly-swatter pass over them it should have some effect.
You can disrupt an entire 10'x10' swarm by applying damage to a single 5' squire.
How on earth does trample include STR damage if it isn't weapon damage?
Trample uses a natural weapon (hoof).
As such, it uses all the modifiers to damage that would apply to your mounts hoof. It is also subject to most of the limitations, with the exception that the damage is applied to an area when using trample.
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What is the difference between damage done from a trample, and damage done from a slam?The problem is that you are inventing a rule and misreading another.
Misread rule:
A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.A swarm is immune to weapon damage, not physical damage. A trample attack is an attack that deal physical damage but isn't a weapon.
A trample affects everything in your path, not just a single target.