This has probably been covered before, but from what I can see, people haven't got an "official" answer.
So, here's the question: in Pathfinder Society, can Ninja take Rogue archetypes that exchange abilities the Ninja and Rogue both have? For example, could a Ninja take the Scout archetype, which exchanges the Uncanny Dodge line of abilities, which both the Rogue and the Ninja have.
If they can, can someone point me out to a place where I might be able to cite the rules if someone calls me on the issue?
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Brief history of the PF Ninja.
Ninja is created, YAY!
Jason says that alternate classes are just archetypes, (I think this was pre "nothing we say is official") thus allowing ninja's to take rogue stuff as if they were just "technically a rogue archetype" (including other archetypes they qualified for)
Fast forward to Unchained coming out, the announcement that alternate classes are not "actually archetype" but are their own separate class and thus the ninja can't be unchained.
That now means that Ninja's can take NOTHING of rogue due to there being NO RULES allowing it. But this goes contrary to how like everyone has been running it for years (due to them being technically archetypes at the time), and is probably not actually intended per Mark's musings. So they may eventually release a FAQ/Blog clarifying what alternate classes actually are and what if anything they can counts as their associated class.
So you'll find no rules allowing a Ninja to take rogue archetypes cause there's no rules allowing it. Though you'll get many people telling you you can and that it's okay to do so, even in PFS, and I'm slow to call them out on that cause it WAS official for many years.
Here is my thread hoping for FAQ votes to get this issue cleared up.
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I don't understand why people believe in the false dichotomy of class or archetype. Ninja and UnRogue are alternate classes. They are neither fully class nor fully archetype.
Nothing about the rules changed with the UnRogue. You can still take rogue archetypes on a ninja, the same way you can take (most) rogue archetypes on an UnRogue.
Nothing about the rules changed with the UnRogue. You can still take rogue archetypes on a ninja, the same way you can take (most) rogue archetypes on an UnRogue.
The problem is that it can be argued either way, as other posters in the thread have indicated. Hence the reasons why I asked for a cite that I can point to...
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I don't understand why people believe in the false dichotomy of class or archetype. Ninja and UnRogue are alternate classes. They are neither fully class nor fully archetype.
Nothing about the rules changed with the UnRogue. You can still take rogue archetypes on a ninja, the same way you can take (most) rogue archetypes on an UnRogue.
Can you provide ANY rules supporting the view that a ninja can take rogue archetypes?
Honestly it's like the issue with magical bow and if the ammunition overcomes DR. For YEARS people have let it overcome DR, and now we have an official clarification that they've been "breaking the rules" the entire time. Same here, just because many people thought you could doesn't mean there's any rule support or that it's actually allowed.
Unchained rogue has a special callout saying it's able to take any rogue archetype. Ninja lacks any such callout. Thus it leads to assume that since it doesn't say it can, it can't. Especially since the URogue's callout wasn't written in the manner of, "Since it's an alternate class it can do this" but "the Urogue can do this" it doesn't provide any support that alternate classes can by default take archetypes.
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Honestly it's like the issue with magical bow and if the ammunition overcomes DR. For YEARS people have let it overcome DR, and now we have an official clarification that they've been "breaking the rules" the entire time. Same here, just because many people thought you could doesn't mean there's any rule support or that it's actually allowed.
The reasons that people were wrong about ammunition are almost the same reasons you are wrong about alternate classes. The reasoning is abstract, so errors arise when people try to simplify or reduce the rules to binary conditions.
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Can you provide ANY rules supporting the view that a ninja can take rogue archetypes?
- Alternate classes are really just expanded archtypes. The distinction is that for an alternate class, we represent all of the rules needed to run the class. It is similar to its base, but has a significant number of swaps. There are certainly some archtypes that could have received this treatment, but we chose to leave them as more abbreviated write ups.
They're archetypes to the point that other archetypes could have been alternate classes.
If the only difference is formating, then you should be able to combine one archetype with another archetype.
Honestly it's like the issue with magical bow and if the ammunition overcomes DR. For YEARS people have let it overcome DR, and now we have an official clarification that they've been "breaking the rules" the entire time.
No. They outright changed the rules on that one.
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Can you provide ANY rules supporting the view that a ninja can take rogue archetypes?- Alternate classes are really just expanded archtypes. The distinction is that for an alternate class, we represent all of the rules needed to run the class. It is similar to its base, but has a significant number of swaps. There are certainly some archtypes that could have received this treatment, but we chose to leave them as more abbreviated write ups.
They're archetypes to the point that other archetypes could have been alternate classes.
If the only difference is formating, then you should be able to combine one archetype with another archetype.
That post is unofficial twice, once via the "nothing devs have said or say is official" and the real seal was the new actually official stance saying that they aren't archetypes.
though that quote is why prior to unchained and them officially declaring their current stance of "not archetypes" alternate classes were viewed as just archetypes
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Honestly it's like the issue with magical bow and if the ammunition overcomes DR. For YEARS people have let it overcome DR, and now we have an official clarification that they've been "breaking the rules" the entire time. Same here, just because many people thought you could doesn't mean there's any rule support or that it's actually allowed.The reasons that people were wrong about ammunition are almost the same reasons you are wrong about alternate classes. The reasoning is abstract, so errors arise when people try to simplify or reduce the rules to binary conditions.
this is worse though, at least there there was unclear wording (or rather pretty clear wording otherwise) to support the popular view.
With alternate classes you'll find NO ACTUAL RULE that hints or suggests that a ninja can take a rogue archetype.
Closest thing was the Jason quote that is now not valid per them declaring their current official view.
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Between Jason, James, Mark and ACG, we have a pretty good idea of how alternate classes work.
If people hadn't been so pushy about unchained ninjas, the team wouldn't have had to come down so hard and confuse everything. I doubt that any new alternate class rules are in the publishing pipeline, so now we're stuck waiting on the FAQueue.
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and the real seal was the new actually official stance saying that they aren't archetypes.
Linky?
though that quote is why prior to unchained and them officially declaring their current stance of "not archetypes" alternate classes were viewed as just archetypes
Its one of them. Alternate classes were twice defined as archetypes.
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The other consequence of Ninjas not being Rogues is Favored Class Bonuses.
Ninjas are stuck with just +1 hit point or skill point.
Archetypes
Alternate class abilities
There's also a rogue only trait (blade of the society)
The bludgeoner feat would technically not work for a ninja (thats a biggie)
The torchbearer archetype wouldn't work.
Murderer's Blackcloth wouldn't work.