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I had an argument with a friend about the way the Flying Kick Style Strike of the unchained monk works.
The two standpoint are:
1. The ability allows you to move any way you want, including 60ft straight into the air.
2. The ability allows you to only to only move in movement types that you have access to. So if you have no fly speed, you can't fly with it.
As such, you are subject to difficult terrain etc.
I couldn't find any official post about it and i find it a bit ambiguous. Can somebody help me?
For reference:
This made me think. If some Monk's archetype's Fast Movement ability gives fly/swim/burrow bonus. Could that Monk use Flying Kick in unusual ways?
Well, I'm not sure about fly/swim/burrow from an archetype, but in the game I'm GMing, there's a monk who often has the fly spell cast on him. I've ruled that he can use the extra movement from flying kick (at the moment that's 30 feet) using any mode of movement he currently possesses. It seems to make sense.
Interesting! Let's get into the RAW-interpretation of it, just for the fun of it.
First, let's see what Flying Kick offers us:
The monk leaps through the air to strike a foe with a kick
Could be flavour, could be rules text, so we'll ignore that, although (for the purposes of RAW interpretation, which usually ignores logic) it is interesting to note that the descriptive flavour text is not clearly separated from the actual rules text. In fact, it is the only clue in the entire ability as to what type of movement is actually performed ("Flying" Kick, leaps, through the air), so it's reasonable to look here for that information.
Before the attack, the monk can move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus
Now, this is the interesting part! At first glance, it might seem like it clearly means land speed, since that is what Fast Movement modifies, but in this particular case, it explicitly just asks for the fast movement bonus, i.e. the amount of movement that Fast Movement adds.
The way it's written, one could easily argue, that it doesn't ask for Fast Movement as a class feature, but rather the value of Fast Movement as a variable devoid of context, in which case all the information that matters is "x ft.", the distance, not the actual type of the movement. In which case the distance moved is a flat value devoid of context or indeed a specific type of movement. The fact that it is not a move action, but movement as part of another special action with its own entire set of rules (Flurry of Blows) further removes connections to the regular movement.It should also be noted that the prolific "up to your speed/your speed" wording present in most forms of extra movement, which specifically forces you to use a movement speed and type you can perform (Fly, Burrow, etc.), is entirely absent here, as is the stipulation that the Monk must end his movement in a safe square, or a square he could stand on, which can be found on a lot of unorthodox movement abilities.
So, in conclusion, one could reasonably argue that there is no link to any of the actual movement types available to the performing Monk, none of the wordings which usually specify how the movement must be performed are present, and all the hints and wordings that are there point toward airborne movement. RAW, the Monk can fly, or rather ambiguously propel himself, in any direction his body can traverse (so at least not through walls or other obstructions), including through dangerous terrain and even ending there, for a distance equal to the raw, variable and devoid of context distance that is set in the Fast Movement class feature.
It's stupid, but a strong case can be made for it.
I'd... honestly absolutely allow it as long as it was made in conjunction with an acrobatics check to jump. Because I think it'd be cool, and then he'd fall at the end of the flurry.
I'd... honestly absolutely allow it as long as it was made in conjunction with an acrobatics check to jump. Because I think it'd be cool, and then he'd fall at the end of the flurry.
You'd allow it because it's cool, but would generally say that the intention of the ability does not include flying?
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I'd... honestly absolutely allow it as long as it was made in conjunction with an acrobatics check to jump. Because I think it'd be cool, and then he'd fall at the end of the flurry.You'd allow it because it's cool, but would generally say that the intention of the ability does not include flying?
Absolutely. This to me feels more or less the same way that, until recently, there wasn't ACTUALLY a rule prohibiting NFL players from kicking each other in the head while hurdling each other. You shouldn't have to say it explicitly... but apparently we do.
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Absolutely. This to me feels more or less the same way that, until recently, there wasn't ACTUALLY a rule prohibiting NFL players from kicking each other in the head while hurdling each other. You shouldn't have to say it explicitly... but apparently we do.
This reminds me of a running gag some friends and I have, where we think of increasingly egregious things to do and justify by saying: "Hey, there wasn't a sign saying don't do that!"
"Hey, there wasn't a sign saying 'don't ride the gorillas'!"
"Hey, there wasn't a sign saying 'don't hide behind the nurse's cart and jump out and yell BOO! at the cardiac patients."
"Hey, there wasn't a sign saying 'don't roshambo the mall Santa and stand over his prone body shouting 'THAT'S FOR NOT BRINGING ME AN OPTIMUS PRIME BACK IN 85!' then shake your fist at the kids in line and scream 'YOU WANT A PIECE OF THIS?'"
But I digress...
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This reminds me of a running gag some friends and I have, where we think of increasingly egregious things to do and justify by saying: "Hey, there wasn't a sign saying don't do that!"
The problem with Flying Kick isn't that it doesn't specify what you can't do, but rather that it also fails to specify what you actually can do, which is the whole crux of the issue.
This reminds me of a running gag some friends and I have, where we think of increasingly egregious things to do and justify by saying: "Hey, there wasn't a sign saying don't do that!"The problem with Flying Kick isn't that it doesn't specify what you can't do, but rather that it also fails to specify what you actually can do, which is the whole crux of the issue.
I'm not so sure. Lots of other abilities that say "you can move" or words to that effect, don't specifically say that movement has to be a kind of movement you have.
For instance, consider Spring Attack: "As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed."
EDIT: Also - "At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed."
For instance, consider Spring Attack: "As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed (emphasis mine) and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed."
The "your speed" clause is actually what specifies that the type of movement has to be one you naturally have, since it's your speed, not an arbitrary distance. In the case of Spring Attack it's absolutely unambiguous in what way and how far you can move, because it refers to a specific value with associated mechanics.
Flying Kick, however, does not, at least going by RAW.
EDIT: Also - "At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed."
See my previous argument:
The way it's written, one could easily argue, that it doesn't ask for Fast Movement as a class feature, but rather the value of Fast Movement as a variable devoid of context, in which case all the information that matters is "x ft.", the distance, not the actual type of the movement. In which case the distance moved is a flat value devoid of context or indeed a specific type of movement.
Since neither land speed, nor your speed, nor indeed the speed (as in type of movement, i.e. land speed) actually modified by Fast Movement, but just the raw distance value associated with Fast Movement is queried by Flying Kick, it's not clear-cut.
The bonus itself is typed as an enhancement bonus to land speed. Not an untyped bonus. Therefore, wherever it is referred to, it is the same type of bonus--the context isn't stripped, it is contained in the way bonuses work.
EDIT - If I said "I'll pay you an amount equal to half what is in my bank account", and then handed you a stack of rocks equal to half the number of dollars in my bank account, I'm pretty sure I couldn't claim it was ambiguous.
EDIT - To clarify my first paragraph, the Flying Kick text says: "move a distance equal to his fast movement bonus." Since that word "bonus" is in there, all of the usual rules about bonuses pertain, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
The way it's written, one could easily argue, that it doesn't ask for Fast Movement as a class feature, but rather the value of Fast Movement as a variable devoid of context, in which case all the information that matters is "x ft.", the distance, not the actual type of the movement. In which case the distance moved is a flat value devoid of context or indeed a specific type of movement.
I see your point and what you're getting at. I do agree that it's a valid argument, but I don't agree that is what is meant. While Spring Attack and Flying Kick use different wording, I believe they were supposed to mean the same thing.
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You just get to move up to that speed. Nothing unique or different from movement than any other movement action you'd make.
You just get to move up to that speed. Nothing unique or different from movement than any other movement action you'd make.So the movement is slowed down by difficult terrain?
The movement is affected by all the normal rules yes.
If you have a fly speed you can fly, if you have a swim speed you can swim, if you're able to ignore difficult terrain you can ignore it, if you can attempt to jump you can jump some or all of it.
All it is is, "you can move X ft", where X is the amount of your fast move.
Pedantically, the monk gets to move a distance equal to his speed bonus, which is different than getting to move AT a speed equal to his speed bonus. So a case could be made for difficult terrain not affecting it, although I agree its frightfully unclear.
For me, I try to go with KISS for this stuff when I can. The monk can move a certain distance (not speed), with movement implied to be a jump/leap (so vertical is possible), and no other actions are required besides a kick at the end (no acrobatic check to jump). The movement provokes as normal, etc.
Granted, with this ruling, my group has realized you can use it to get back on your feet if tripped. Flying kick into the air (provoking as normal) to a distance just above your target. Kick, fall back down, DC 15 acrobatics to reduce falling damage. Take no damage, not prone. Continue flurry.
Some might call that cheesy, but I think if a monk is willing to eat an attack of opportunity to Flash Kick into a standing position, I should put on the Guile's Theme because it goes with everything, especially flying kicks.
That's just me though. I admit the ability by the book is worded... less than clearly.
but I don't agree that is what is meant
Neither do I, although at the table I would always rule it as being wuxia-style movement, i.e. through the air, as the fluff-blurb says. Because otherwise why call it Flying Kick, if you're not even flying?
The ability is just incredibly badly worded and missing a lot of established vocabulary from similar abilities, which makes it fun to argue about the different interpretations. It really needs an errata or at least a correction in wording, though.
but I don't agree that is what is meantNeither do I, although at the table I would always rule it as being wuxia-style movement, i.e. through the air, as the fluff-blurb says. Because otherwise why call it Flying Kick, if you're not even flying?
The ability is just incredibly badly worded and missing a lot of established vocabulary from similar abilities, which makes it fun to argue about the different interpretations. It really needs an errata or at least a correction in wording, though.
Same reason why stunning fist can be delivered through a "kick" US. It's just a fun name.
I think we're all missing the real question.
Is the mandatory "HIIIIYAAAAAA!" that accompanies the Flying Kick considered a verbal component or just a free action to speak?
:p
I'd allow someone to go straight up in the air, flurry, and come back down cause it's cool.
I'd also allow someone to leap across a 30 foot chasm with this ability to hit the evil wizard on the other side cause also cool.
I wouldn't allow a monk to yell. "THE TREE ACROSS THE RAGING RIVER KILLED MY FATHER! I WILL HAVE MY REVEENNNGE!" and do a Flying Kick on the tree to cross the river cause not cool.
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I think we're all missing the real question.
Is the mandatory "HIIIIYAAAAAA!" that accompanies the Flying Kick considered a verbal component or just a free action to speak?
:p
It's actually the action that you need to do, you shout and the universe takes over and does the actual movement for you.
It does not say it grants you any new movement types, so you do not gain any new movement types.
It says you leap to do it, so you are off the surface of the ground. mud, sand, loose gravel, etc would not hamper the movement made as part of the flying kick, just as is does not hamper movement made during a long jump with an acrobatics check.
It does not call for an acrobatics check to move the distance it tells you you CAN move, so this is an auto-success jump in any direction (including straight up) that does not come out of your total movement speed for the round. At 5th level this is only a 10' jump, But by 18th level (when wizards can create new demiplanes), this is a 60' jump. Wow... Extraordinary! (Ex)
It does not say you land without harm, however, so you will have to make an acrobatics check - as you fall back down to the ground, to reduce the damage you take. Unless you took Slow Fall, as well (or have a ring of feather fall or boots of the cat) you will end up prone if you jump straight up in the air at higher levels.