Is it possible to make Hellknight armor from a non-metal material? I'm building a melee Druid/Hellknight Signifier.
You could try wearing Hellknight Leather armor.
Ah yes, should have been more precise (I was typing on my phone). Can I make, say, Hellknight Full Plate from Dragonhide?
There is no limitation on what armor you can make from Dragonhide. So, I'd say the answer is yes, absolutely.
Edit: Hmm, actually, looking at it more closely, the Hell Knight Armor is described as "distinctive" and "special", has a separate entry, price and everything, so I doubt you can legally change what it's made out of.
Mechanically, Hellknight Full Plate is simply masterwork full plate, in a distinctive style.
I don't see any reason you couldn't make it out of any regular special material (mithral, adamantine, dragonhide, etc)
Mechanically, Hellknight Full Plate is simply masterwork full plate, in a distinctive style.
I don't see any reason you couldn't make it out of any regular special material (mithral, adamantine, dragonhide, etc)
Heck, it might even fit with the distinctive style depending on which dragon hide is used?
Hellknight armor is much like any armor, and no armor is uniquely barred from special material upgrades if they match their typical metal composition.
You could also make your armor out of voidglass.
There is no limitation on what armor you can make from Dragonhide. So, I'd say the answer is yes, absolutely.For PFS, only the types listed in the dragonhide entry are legal options. So, no hellknight armor that way.
The Dragonhide entry does not list types.
It has blanket statements that apply equally to all armor types.
DESCRIPTION
A classic status symbol for adventurers, dragonhide armor is coveted for its toughness. Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality.
One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a light or heavy masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. If the dragonhide comes from a dragon that had immunity to an energy type, the armor is also immune to that energy type, although this does not confer any protection to the wearer.
Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.
Though smiths have been making dragonhide armor for centuries without the benefit of dragoncrafting, those with the Dragoncrafting feat are able to improve upon an already excellent product.
Normally, if a suit of dragonhide armor has energy immunity, one may enhance such a suit with additional energy protection for the wearer at a 25% reduced cost. However, only effects with the same elemental type as the armor’s immunity are eligible for this discount. An artisan with the Dragoncrafting feat may add 1 additional elemental protection to a suit of dragonhide armor at the same 25% discount, even if this energy resistance is not normally associated with the type of dragonhide being used.
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Your quote spells out the PFS limitations for Dragonhide. You can make Hide, Banded Mail, Halfplate, and Fullplate armors in Dragonhide. You can also make Light and Heavy Shields with Dragonhide. It does not grant the option for other armor types.
For non-PFS, most GMs don't care, but PFS adheres to the rules as written, and the rules specifically only allow the above types of armor. You could petition paizo for clarification, but strict RAW only allows thet specific types of armor listed in the CRB.
Just like Wooden Tower Shields in PFS...
EDIT: I suppose, given the Description for Hellknight Plate, that it is still counted as Fullplate, so could be made from Dragonhide. Would be up to the GM (for PFS, ask the current GM when you buy it with a high enough fame score, since Dragonhide is never Always Availible).
For non-PFS, most GMs don't care, but PFS adheres to the rules as written, and the rules specifically only allow the above types of armor. You could petition paizo for clarification, but strict RAW only allows thet specific types of armor listed in the CRB.
Even in the CRB special material tables, armor is only broken down by light/medium/heavy.
Dragonhide does not reference an armor table - it can be applied to any type of armor.
Tower shields are restricted in special material selection in PFS because the item description specifies wood. Hellknight armor lacks a descriptor restricting its construction to a specific material.
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For non-PFS, most GMs don't care, but PFS adheres to the rules as written, and the rules specifically only allow the above types of armor. You could petition paizo for clarification, but strict RAW only allows thet specific types of armor listed in the CRB.Even in the CRB special material tables, armor is only broken down by light/medium/heavy.
Dragonhide does not reference an armor table - it can be applied to any type of armor.
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Read it again. Dragonhide specifically lists the types of armor/shields that can be made. They aren't examples, those are the only options. It is not based on light/medium/heavy/shield. It's just those specified armor selections.
Read it again. Dragonhide specifically lists the types of armor/shields that can be made. They aren't examples, those are the only options. It is not based on light/medium/heavy/shield. It's just those specified armor selections.For non-PFS, most GMs don't care, but PFS adheres to the rules as written, and the rules specifically only allow the above types of armor. You could petition paizo for clarification, but strict RAW only allows thet specific types of armor listed in the CRB.Even in the CRB special material tables, armor is only broken down by light/medium/heavy.
Dragonhide does not reference an armor table - it can be applied to any type of armor.
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The only reference to specific armor types in any printed version of Dragonshide (CRB, Dragonslayers Companion, or UE) is in reference to the quantity of dragonhide available from killing a specific dragon relative to the size of the creature for which the armor is being crafted.
In no version of the dragonhide rules does it specify what armor can be manufactured with dragonhide - it only specifies crafting rules in regards to available quantity of raw materials.
PFS does not allow crafting and does not require the player to obtain raw materials by slaying specific dragons.
Even if the crafting rules where to be interpreted as a restrictive list, we still have RAW defining Hellknight Armor as a type of full plate, a specified armor type under the dragonhide crafting rules.
These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate
Read it again. Dragonhide specifically lists the types of armor/shields that can be made. They aren't examples, those are the only options. It is not based on light/medium/heavy/shield. It's just those specified armor selections.
To be precise it specifically lists how much you get from a single dragon, but nowhere is it written that your Dragonhide armor comes from a single dragon. If you just buy it, it does not matter at all what the rules about salvaging a dragon say. Even PFS makes no distinction whether your red dragon hide armor comes from a single red dragon or pieces from 10 different red dragons.
Stop argueing, this is the pertinent part taken from the above quote from the PRD
"...an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller."
So, what size dragon is needed to make hellknight plate for a medium wearer?
Stop argueing, this is the pertinent part taken from the above quote from the PRD
"...an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller."
So, what size dragon is needed to make hellknight plate for a medium wearer?
Considering the fact that Hellknight Plate is specifically stated to function like masterwork full plate armor? 1 colossal dragon.
Stop argueing, this is the pertinent part taken from the above quote from the PRD
"...an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller."
So, what size dragon is needed to make hellknight plate for a medium wearer?
These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate
4 size categories larger, i.e. colossal.
Can you name which types of dragonhide are not PFS legal for medium full plate by virtue of the fact that no dragons of that type ever reach colossal?
Whew, this is all getting a little involved. A lively debate!
The reason I posted the original question is: my (medium) Druid is planning to go into Hellknight Signifier and I want to give him Hellknight armor at that point. As a Druid it can't be metal armor. Is there any reason that anyone can see why I can't make a) Dragonhide Hellknight armor or b) Stone Hellknight armor?
And this is for PFS.
And my Druid is a Goliath Druid who will spend all his time in Giant form, which means that his armor will resize, rather than melding into his body, so the question does matter in practical terms.
No reason at all for Dragonhide.
Stone Plate is a specific type of armor, not a special material.
Stone, as a special material, is not generally available for armor.
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Whew, this is all getting a little involved. A lively debate!
The reason I posted the original question is: my (medium) Druid is planning to go into Hellknight Signifier and I want to give him Hellknight armor at that point. As a Druid it can't be metal armor. Is there any reason that anyone can see why I can't make a) Dragonhide Hellknight armor or b) Stone Hellknight armor?
And this is for PFS.
And my Druid is a Goliath Druid who will spend all his time in Giant form, which means that his armor will resize, rather than melding into his body, so the question does matter in practical terms.
It is a rules forum, so lively debate is somewhat expected. Sorry if it bugs you.
As written, Dragonhide Hellknight armor is not PFS legal. There's some wiggle room because it describes itself as fullplate, and Dragonhide Fullplate is PFS legal. So, ask the whomever the GM is when you want to purchase the armor (initially) and have a back up plan if they so no.
As a special note, Dragonhide is specifically not always availible. So you'll need a substancial fame score to acquire it. Shouldn't be an issue when you are at 5th level, but something to keep in mind.
As for Stone armor, again, not a legal option. Stoneplate is legal, Stone in armor is given an exception for Stoneplate.
As an aside, Hellknight Signifier seems like a rather odd mix with the Druid. Nothing wrong with it, but I am curious as to the gain via that presitge class.
That is kind of weird, but maybe there are RP reasons for taking that path.
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That is kind of weird, but maybe there are RP reasons for taking that path.
My theory is that the player is looking for the lowest ACP and are being mislead by the Hellknight Plate. The Hellknight Plate is misleading because it includes the -1 ACP for being masterwork in the basic profile. Normal, Masterwork Fullplate will have the same exact profile and be 350gp cheaper....
The Hellknight Signifier does gain a minor ACP reduction at 3rd and 8th, but it's very minor when considering that most PFS characters don't get beyond 12th level (so the prestige classes rarely get beyond 7th level).
No, it doesn't bug me at all - I'm quite fond of a good rules debate too. I posted my comment because I'm trying to figure out whether or not I'd be able to buy a non-metal form of Hellknight Plate, dragonhide being the most likely option but bone also being a consideration (btw, I meant to say bone above when I wrote stone - oops - the baby was fussing). It seemed like the discussion was veering off into a debate about what exactly dragonhide can be applied to - which is certainly a worthy and related question - but I wanted to get back to the question of whether non-metal hellknight plate is an option. I'm happy to also discuss the broader dragonhide question as well, I just didn't want my original question to get completely lost.
Maybe to put the question another way: is there any reason I can't have Bone Hellknight Plate? That is, is Hellknight Plate a) just another kind of armor (like Studded Leather, or a Chain Shirt, or a Haramaki, or whatever) or b) its own unique thing that can't have special materials applied to it? And, if the answer is a), then, c) is there any reason why Hellknight Plate has to be made of metal?
Regarding the questions about why I even care, and why I'm going Druid/Goliath -> Hellknight Signifier, it's partially RP and partially strategic. RP: I envision the character as being compulsively orderly (in a kinda OCD way) - he's a Druid because the natural world needs tending to - all these trees in the forest are growing every which way and they need to be encouraged to get in line (he thinks a nice orchard is the perfect forest). He's also on a quest (and joined the Pathfinder Society to this end) to find and punish his escaped "dog" (who is, in reality, another one of my characters, a kitsune who spends all his time in fox form, seeking vengeance against the giants who enslaved him - but that's another story). Needless to say, he's Lawful Neutral, with a strong emphasis on the Lawful aspect. So, from an RP perspective, making a Hellknight out of a Druid seems funny (to me at least), while also fitting with his obsessively orderly attitude.
Strategy-wise: because I'm a Goliath Druid, from level 6 (which I'm 2 adventures away from), I'll spend all my time wildshaped as a Large giant humanoid, which means that my armor and weapons will resize rather than melding into me. Since I envision this character definitely spending some of his time in melee, the possibility of full-plate armor is attractive (he'll get heavy armor proficiency when he takes his first level of Hellknight Signifier at 7) and yes, I realize that I could just give him regular full-plate and make it dragonhide, but that wouldn't be nearly as much fun as it being Hellknight Plate (aside from RP, I don't believe I'll have any benefit at all from it actually being Hellknight armor as opposed to regular armor - I think the only way to get advantages from the hellknight plate are to be an actual Hellknight, rather than a signifier).
Further strategy-wise: he has an Animal Companion (an Elasmotherium) which he gets from having the Animal Domain (+ Boon Companion to have him fully-leveled). One of the features of the Signifier class (Catechesis) is to advance your domains, so in taking levels in Signifier my Elasmotherium will continue to advance as normal. And as a Goliath Druid I can Enlarge my companion, so from level 7 - space permitting - I can make my Elasmotherium Huge, which has a nice synergy with his Grab attack. I also gain proficiency in my order's weapon, probably flail for the Order of the Chain (for RP reasons). None of this is earth-shattering, as usual PrCs are less over-powered than the base classes, but it seems fun to me. I'll have the full spectrum of Animal Domain spells, full casting as a Druid, a fully-leveled Animal Companion, heavy armor proficiency, and proficiency in a non-druid weapon (as well as the Signifier mask, and at Signifier 4 the Assiduous Gaze ability), at the cost of 2 feats (Boon Companion and Warrior Priest). I really don't lose anything from the Druid side (2 uses of wild shape/day). I'll likely go Druid 6/Hellknight Signifier 4/ and then back to Druid so that (if I keep playing him into Seeker tier) I can take the Shaping Focus feat at Druid 8/Signifier 4 to be able to wildshape into Giant Form I.
Lastly, yes, I realize that dragonhide has a fame requirement but since none of this will come online until level 7, I don't expect that to be a big problem (if I am able to go the dragonhide route). I actually recently played a scenario that gave me a boon related to bone items so, even though bone is somewhat inferior as a material, I'm tempted to go the Bone Hellknight Plate option if it's legal. Seems like a fun and unusual way to make a Druid to me.
Any comments or suggestions are much appreciated!
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Maybe to put the question another way: is there any reason I can't have Bone Hellknight Plate? That is, is Hellknight Plate a) just another kind of armor (like Studded Leather, or a Chain Shirt, or a Haramaki, or whatever) or b) its own unique thing that can't have special materials applied to it? And, if the answer is a), then, c) is there any reason why Hellknight Plate has to be made of metal?
For reason, it is a uniform. From an RP stance, the very Order-focused Hellknights would want everyone dressed the same. That's probably the biggest reason, and probably the best reason for a Lawful character.
I don't even think the armor should be eligible for special materials at all, given the description and context, but that's personal opinion, not RAW. I also don't think the class is made with druids in mind (certainly an oversight). I did start another thread for clarity on the special material options hellknight plate.
Bone's description is unclear, but I think it can only make the listed armor types (Scale Maile, Studded hide, Breastplate, and wooden shields). As for material values, the strong point for bone is that most spells and creatures don't interact negatively with it (rust proof, no warp wood, heat metal, and so forth). Hardness 5 sucks, but isn't the worst.
Bone armor also reduces its armor bonus by 1, so that's really the main penalty for it. But it doesn't look like it can be used for full plate in any case.
Yep, I saw the thread you started and clicked the faq button. Hopefully we will get some clarification that way.
As for whether or not the druid-signifier combo is an oversight, the oddness of the combo is what makes it fun and attractive from my point of view and I certainly don't think it's overpowered.
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Bone armor also reduces its armor bonus by 1, so that's really the main penalty for it. But it doesn't look like it can be used for full plate in any case.
Yep, I saw the thread you started and clicked the faq button. Hopefully we will get some clarification that way.
That thread, one of the guys pointed out that Herolab does not allow Dragonhide Hellknight Plate. Herolab, so grain of salt.
Regarding bone, "magically strengthened bone armor" ignores the penalty to armor and the fragile quality. "Magically strengthening" primative materials is 100gp per pound. The low hardness remains.
For character suggestions, personally, I'd ditch the heavy armor plan. Breastplate is good enough, most of the time, and you can always add a shield if the opponent is especially accurate with their strikes.
Hero Lab still has a lot of bugs vis-a-vis special materials, so I wouldn't read too much into that.
*Pokes head in* Yeah, HL doesn't say Bone works for Hellknight Plate. I suppose Voidglass Hellknight Plate (6500 GP) would technically be crystal instead of metal, though, and the bonus versus mind-affecting powers seems like something they might like...
Voidglass would be fun but I don't think it's PFS-legal.