I'm not saying that there'll be no useless fluff spells, but I do think there'll be much less due to having machines that can do a lot of these things. I'm sure there will be some extra spells that don't have a tech equivalent but I don't foresee them being as bountiful and if anything they'll probably be the more ridiculous ones that are magical rather than the more mundane stuff if you can call it that. I think if they were to do prepared casters the best way to add it to the system that we've seen so far (in my opinion anyway) would be to make a caster only archetype that could swap out some spell slots for some sort of spell storage system where they could have all their spells and choose which ones to take each day.
Seems like an exaggeration. Spontaneous casters can swap out a known spell every level now, so he could research that in between researching cutting-edge spells. And while he could learn the basics of any other class, that would be at the cost of not learning any cutting edge magic. Do you really want the ability to learn first level spells instead of fifth level spells without multiclassing? That sounds a lot worse than just trading out an equivalent-level spell known.
I would rather their were steps taken so that you aren't actively discouraged against using fluffy spells.
The thing about a lot of Pathfinder's utility spells is that most of them can be replaced by cheap technology, so there's less reason to store loads of situationally useful minor spells because you can have gadgets that do it all for you, you could even have a kind of multi-tool that performs several useful functions. There's really no practical reason to have magic for things that machines can do more cheaply.
If that were true then there would be no reason to have non-adventuring mages at all, which would make for a pretty boring science fantasy setting IMO.
We don't even know if the technomancer uses some sort of phone in front of him or that it's possible to cast magic in such a way.
If you have a scholar technomancer it seems perfectly reasonable that they learnt their spells through study. I was just saying the phone as a thing which could contain the appropriate information.
And as I already pointed out, the same could be said for other artifacts of a level-based system, like feats and skill points or other class features. A rogue can demonstrate evasion to someone repeatedly to try and teach them, a fighter can try to show you how to cleave an enemy properly, a bard can try and teach you more about arcane symbology, but you won't get any better at any of them until you take a few levels in something that grants evasion, a new feat slot, or level up and get more skill points. Why should magic be any different?
Issue is that basically only makes sense with things which require physical practice or are extremely wide. For example, Knowledge (engineering) in pathfinder (I don't recall if Starfinder has an equivelent skill) is so expansive you wouldn't gain ranks of it over time simply reading over a part of an engineering textbook, knowledge engineering covers so many things that you'd need to read tonnes of texts, so it makes sense to abstract that to level-based.
But when you buy a textbook on magic in a system where spells are self contained and do not require other spells as prerequisites, it makes no sense that you cannot learn x spell if you study the section on that specific spell.
In Pathfinder, prepared casters get 4 cantrips while spontaneous casters get 6 cantrips. As a result, my spontaneous caster characters are much more likely to have a couple of frivolous cantrips.
In pathfinder, wizards get all the cantrips. The issue is one of spells-known vs. preparing, not spells per day.
That seems like a lot of assumptions about both how magic and the technomancer works.And okay, non-physical, why do people need feat slots to learn how to use metamagic feats, then?
Learning how to modify tonnes and tonnes of spells is a very broad thing, and thus what I said applies to it.
you won't get better at Use Magic Device
Super broad.
for example, or Perception
Requires practice like a physical talent.
Linguisitcs, until you level up and can put a skill rank in it.
Broad, except for learning new languages (which you can actually learn in downtime rather than needing to put skill ranks in to accomplish).
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Indeed. If there are no useless fluff spells in the game because there is tech for that, then the whole argument becomes meaningless.It would mean we'd gone from a system that encouraged and supported using magic to build up the setting and do stuff that's fun even if it's not practical, to one that shuns people who enjoy those qualities. That's not the argument becoming meaningless at all.
I sure do love locking all the cool and interesting things behind being a caster. That has been such good and a well-lauded design decision for the past...17 years.
Niche utility things aren't going away, they're just now available in technological form. Which means everyone with money and the forethought to acquire them will have access to that gear. Which to me is a much more sound design choice than 'If you don't have a caster, it's going to hurt, but if you do you're irrelevant if you're mundane because magic does everyone for you'.
Which really, isn't actually going anywhere either (in the sense that utility spells exist to help the party) if these spell crystals or whatever exist. You just don't have prepared casters.
Indeed. If there are no useless fluff spells in the game because there is tech for that, then the whole argument becomes meaningless.It would mean we'd gone from a system that encouraged and supported using magic to build up the setting and do stuff that's fun even if it's not practical, to one that shuns people who enjoy those qualities. That's not the argument becoming meaningless at all.I sure do love locking all the cool and interesting things behind being a caster. That has been such good and a well-lauded design decision for the past...17 years.
Niche utility things aren't going away, they're just now available in technological form. Which means everyone with money and the forethought to acquire them will have access to that gear. Which to me is a much more sound design choice than 'If you don't have a caster, it's going to hurt, but if you do you're irrelevant if you're mundane because magic does everyone for you'.
Which really, isn't actually going anywhere either (in the sense that utility spells exist to help the party) if these spell crystals or whatever exist. You just don't have prepared casters.
That's... not even close to what I was talking about? The magic system having fluffy non-adventuring spells (and not actively discouraging their use, which the all-spontaneous paradigm clearly does) is in no way mutually exclusive with fluffy non-adventuring abilities existing elsewhere in the game. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.
I love when people try to compare learning spells to stuff in reality. Because we all know how to memorize spells in real life right? It totally doesn't work like it does in pathfinder.
What you mean you guys don't know how to cast spells?
I love when people try to compare learning spells to stuff in reality. Because we all know how to memorize spells in real life right? It totally doesn't work like it does in pathfinder.
What you mean you guys don't know how to cast spells?
We know that people can learn spells through studying in the golarion setting, because people have learnt how to cast spells through studying in the golarion setting.
We know that people can learn spells through studying in the golarion setting, because people have learnt how to cast spells through studying in the golarion setting.I love when people try to compare learning spells to stuff in reality. Because we all know how to memorize spells in real life right? It totally doesn't work like it does in pathfinder.
What you mean you guys don't know how to cast spells?
So why haven't you done it in real life yet?
That's... not even close to what I was talking about? The magic system having fluffy non-adventuring spells (and not actively discouraging their use, which the all-spontaneous paradigm clearly does) is in no way mutually exclusive with fluffy non-adventuring abilities existing elsewhere in the game. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion.Indeed. If there are no useless fluff spells in the game because there is tech for that, then the whole argument becomes meaningless.It would mean we'd gone from a system that encouraged and supported using magic to build up the setting and do stuff that's fun even if it's not practical, to one that shuns people who enjoy those qualities. That's not the argument becoming meaningless at all.I sure do love locking all the cool and interesting things behind being a caster. That has been such good and a well-lauded design decision for the past...17 years.
Niche utility things aren't going away, they're just now available in technological form. Which means everyone with money and the forethought to acquire them will have access to that gear. Which to me is a much more sound design choice than 'If you don't have a caster, it's going to hurt, but if you do you're irrelevant if you're mundane because magic does everyone for you'.
Which really, isn't actually going anywhere either (in the sense that utility spells exist to help the party) if these spell crystals or whatever exist. You just don't have prepared casters.
Then I'm not even sure what the hell your argument actually is. You have practically all the utility a prepared caster comes with using tech, on literally any character, so that not one single character needs totally carry the burden of having every solution. On top of any magic the spellcasters will have.
Who needs prestidigitation when you have a hover-roomba?
I'd rather have Prestidigitation (assuming that it really does the job) so that I don't have to worry about buying, charging, or maintaining the Roomba. Sure would like to have a spell to clean my apartment . . . although Prestidigitation just ISN'T going to cut it on the bathtub . . . .
Then I'm not even sure what the hell your argument actually is. You have practically all the utility a prepared caster comes with using tech, on literally any character, so that not one single character needs totally carry the burden of having every solution. On top of any magic the spellcasters will have.
Having fun non-combat magic that does wacky stuff is fun. Learning those weird off the wall spells (like create treasure map), or ones that do mundane stuff that isn't helpful in an adventure but are interesting (continual flame, masterwork transformation) is fun. People like doing that with their character's magic. People like having those sorts of things be relevant in the setting and sensible for NPCs (even ones you might never personally meet) to pick up. It's generally quite positive and low impact on the rest of the game. It's also killed by only allowing spontaneous casters- you really can't afford to spend incredibly limited spells known on choices with highly specific or impractical uses, you have to pick things that solve general problems. Spell gems (read: exactly the same thing as scrolls) aren't really a solution to the problem either, since they'd both tax you heavily for wanting to do things that are purely fun (not powerful) and deny players the satisfaction of it being their character's own skill and/or study that produces the neat effects they like.
It's awesome if other people get abilities like that too, of course. Skill tricks that let you do neat stuff like climb up smoke or tell who's approaching through footsteps. Pages full of gadgets and gizmos with interesting applications to read through and load up on. Ability selections that are non-competitive with combat abilities to let you do stuff like divine entrails or douse for water or make hulk jumps. All of that is also awesome and not in any way exclusive with making it a reasonable choice to build a mage that has nap stack, share memory, and secret page squirreled away for funzies.
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Then I'm not even sure what the hell your argument actually is. You have practically all the utility a prepared caster comes with using tech, on literally any character, so that not one single character needs totally carry the burden of having every solution. On top of any magic the spellcasters will have.Having fun non-combat magic that does wacky stuff is fun. Learning those weird off the wall spells (like create treasure map), or ones that do mundane stuff that isn't helpful in an adventure but are interesting (continual flame, masterwork transformation) is fun. People like doing that with their character's magic. People like having those sorts of things be relevant in the setting and sensible for NPCs (even ones you might never personally meet) to pick up. It's generally quite positive and low impact on the rest of the game. It's also killed by only allowing spontaneous casters- you really can't afford to spend incredibly limited spells known on choices with highly specific or impractical uses, you have to pick things that solve general problems. Spell gems (read: exactly the same thing as scrolls) aren't really a solution to the problem either, since they'd both tax you heavily for wanting to do things that are purely fun (not powerful) and deny players the satisfaction of it being their character's own skill and/or study that produces the neat effects they like.
It's awesome if other people get abilities like that too, of course. Skill tricks that let you do neat stuff like climb up smoke or tell who's approaching through footsteps. Pages full of gadgets and gizmos with interesting applications to read through and load up on. Ability selections that are non-competitive with combat abilities to let you do stuff like divine entrails or douse for water or make hulk jumps. All of that is also awesome and not in any way exclusive with making it a reasonable choice to build a mage that has nap stack, share...
Would you complain in Shadowrun about lack of non-adventuring magic? Or in Eclipse Phase?
Not all systems have to provide it.In D&D/Pathfinder it's appropriate as magic is one of the core elements of the setting. In Starfinder, Paizo indicated they want to give at least equally as much attention to technology, if not more.
A shift from non-adventuring magic to non-adventuring tech isn't really any form of loss, as it's pretty much just a thematic sidegrade, especially since prepared spellcasting was the most powerful subsystem ever published for 3.x, and balancing around it being still king would have been detrimental.
I can't comment on Eclipse Phase, but Shadowrun notably has non-adventuring magic. You can bind a spirit to be your butler, put people into suspended animation, and manifest obviously fake but entertaining illusions.
Not all systems have to provide it, but it's popular, non-intrusive to gameplay, and Starfinder is building off of a system that already includes it. There's little reason to ditch a selling point like that. Shit, it doesn't even have to do anything with prepared casting- you could introduce ritual casting like a dozen other systems do or come up with something more creative- but the current path where prepared casting is dumped and nothing fills that void sucks for people that enjoy non-adventuring magic. Being told to buy a bucket full of shiny magic rocks or pound sand instead isn't really helpful.
Would you complain in Shadowrun about lack of non-adventuring magic? Or in Eclipse Phase?
No, though Shadowrun is specifically for shadowruns, and Eclipse Phase doesn't have magic... So not a very good comparison point. People are comparing Starfinder to Pathfinder, because Starfinder is meant to be PF but for Science Fantasy.
A shift from non-adventuring magic to non-adventuring tech isn't really any form of loss
I really disagree with that. I mean for godsake, based on what this thread is saying no one but psychos and soldiers would ever even bother trying to become casters because there is no point in magic which isn't useful in battle.
I can't comment on Eclipse Phase, but Shadowrun notably has non-adventuring magic. You can bind a spirit to be your butler, put people into suspended animation, and manifest obviously fake but entertaining illusions.
Not all systems have to provide it, but it's popular, non-intrusive to gameplay, and Starfinder is building off of a system that already includes it. There's little reason to ditch a selling point like that. S!@+, it doesn't even have to do anything with prepared casting- you could introduce ritual casting like a dozen other systems do or come up with something more creative- but the current path where prepared casting is dumped and nothing fills that void sucks for people that enjoy non-adventuring magic. Being told to buy a bucket full of shiny magic rocks or pound sand instead isn't really helpful.
Ritual casting I can very much get behind, yeah.
I loved it in the games which got it right and it felt like a huge shame that Paizo pretty much dropped the system and nearly forgot about it right after introducing it in Occult Adventures.
I frankly would of liked no magic at all in the core book, but eh i'm ok with what they got.
Would you complain in Shadowrun about lack of non-adventuring magic? Or in Eclipse Phase?No, though Shadowrun is specifically for shadowruns, and Eclipse Phase doesn't have magic... So not a very good comparison point. People are comparing Starfinder to Pathfinder, because Starfinder is meant to be PF but for Science Fantasy.
A shift from non-adventuring magic to non-adventuring tech isn't really any form of lossI really disagree with that. I mean for godsake, based on what this thread is saying no one but psychos and soldiers would ever even bother trying to become casters because there is no point in magic which isn't useful in battle.
Why not extend your assertion to non-casters, then?
In Pathfinder, why would anyone other than psychos and soldiers ever become any martial class, as martial classes have no out of combat utility whatsover?
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You could spend a decade learning / training to use a bow/magic.
Or you pick up that gun/gadget from the store and learn to use it in a matter of days (gun) or instantly use it after reading the manual (gadget).
There is a reason why in the real world bows (and in a fashion crossbows) went the way of the dodo after gunpowder and guns started becoming more commonplace. It takes way less time to train to use them effectively.
In Pathfinder, why would anyone other than psychos and soldiers ever become any martial class, as martial classes have no out of combat utility whatsover?
They wouldn't.
In Pathfinder, why would anyone other than psychos and soldiers ever become any martial class, as martial classes have no out of combat utility whatsover?They wouldn't.
Explain to me why they exist in such abundance then? You can't just derive thematics off mechanical prowess, because that's subject to system balance and has nothing to do with story elements.
Arguing for niche spells only prepared casters ever used because of how stupidly specific they were is a pretty weak argument. Particularly since those same spells tend to do mundane stuff better than mundane specialists (which is inherently toxic game design, because seriously what the f+*% is up with Fabricate), and most if not all could be ported into tech usable by everyone, not just a caster.
It's not like casters even should stop existing, either. It's been mentioned fairly often that Starfinder's tech is part science and part magic, and technomancers clearly encapsulate a lot of those magical elements. They probably exist in greater abundance than Pathfinder wizards ever did, and magic probably can still do stuff as easily as technology can, and maybe some things it can't.
Explain to me why they exist in such abundance then?
.... Are you telling me people make characters (including NPCs) with martial classes who didn't intend to be warriors. Those characters sound like they have an intelligence of 3.
In Pathfinder, why would anyone other than psychos and soldiers ever become any martial class, as martial classes have no out of combat utility whatsover?They wouldn't.
But it's kind of a silly assertion that the only PC classes you can be without being a psychopath are prepared casters. I'm not even sure how to address it.
You could spend a decade learning / training to use a bow/magic.
Or you pick up that gun/gadget from the store and learn to use it in a matter of days (gun) or instantly use it after reading the manual (gadget).There is a reason why in the real world bows (and in a fashion crossbows) went the way of the dodo after gunpowder and guns started becoming more commonplace. It takes way less time to train to use them effectively.
Yeah, practicality is an important thing. Why would anyone spend a month learning, say, Detect Magic, if space-Chinese Goggles of Magic Detection cost basically nothing and are readily available everywhere with no training requirement?
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But it's kind of a silly assertion that the only PC classes you can be without being a psychopath are prepared casters. I'm not even sure how to address it.
1. You're forgetting that I didn't just say psychos. Also said soldiers. People who are warriors would take warrior class. People who are not planning on being warriors would not choose to become martial classes.
2. You didn't say anything about "all PC classes other than prepared casters", you said martial classes so I answered your question with a response appropriate to martial classes.Please don't strawman me.
But it's kind of a silly assertion that the only PC classes you can be without being a psychopath are prepared casters. I'm not even sure how to address it.
1. You're forgetting that I didn't just say psychos. Also said soldiers. People who are warriors would take warrior class. People who are not planning on being warriors would not choose to become martial classes.
2. You didn't say anything about "all PC classes other than prepared casters", you said martial classes so I answered your question with a response appropriate to martial classes.Please don't strawman me.
1. I'm still not seeing what's the issue? A regular person would be fine using common tech appliances. People actually bothering to learn how to fight in one way or another are adventurers or whatever else is fitting.
2. But right before that you said that all spontaneous casters are either psychos or soldiers. And other than martials, spontaneous casters, and prepared casters, there's pretty much nothing left, as far as I'm aware.
About magic being studyable... looking at starting ages, wizards and maguses generally need the equivalent of an extra three/four-year degree over a bard just to cast first level spells, and that's training rather than self-taught. One of the top schools for wizards has a mortality rate of 20% for the first three years of study alone. The game mechanics are simple enough, but in-universe, a lot of prepared casting is really difficult. As for prepared divine magic, the gods are less communicative and less involved in day-to-day affairs in Starfinder.
1. I'm still not seeing what's the issue? A regular person would be fine using common tech appliances. People actually bothering to learn how to fight in one way or another are adventurers or whatever else is fitting.2. But right before that you said that all spontaneous casters are either psychos or soldiers. And other than martials, spontaneous casters, and prepared casters, there's pretty much nothing left, as far as I'm aware.
1. yes.... I was just correcting you when you said that I asserted "the only PC classes you can be without being a psychopath are prepared casters." which I did not.
2. Actually what I was saying was that if the only spells are adventurer spells then no one other than a psycho or soldier would be a caster. Because if your classes only skills are stuff for combat... you probably only trained in that because your a psycho or a soldier of some kind.
3. ... Never heard of Rogues before? There are classes that aren't casters and aren't martials.
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1. I'm still not seeing what's the issue? A regular person would be fine using common tech appliances. People actually bothering to learn how to fight in one way or another are adventurers or whatever else is fitting.2. But right before that you said that all spontaneous casters are either psychos or soldiers. And other than martials, spontaneous casters, and prepared casters, there's pretty much nothing left, as far as I'm aware.
1. yes.... I was just correcting you when you said that I asserted "the only PC classes you can be without being a psychopath are prepared casters." which I did not.
2. Actually what I was saying was that if the only spells are adventurer spells then no one other than a psycho or soldier would be a caster. Because if your classes only skills are stuff for combat... you probably only trained in that because your a psycho or a soldier of some kind.
3. ... Never heard of Rogues before? There are classes that aren't casters and aren't martials.
Rogues are martials, though. Really bad martials, but still.
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2. Actually what I was saying was that if the only spells are adventurer spells then no one other than a psycho or soldier would be a caster. Because if your classes only skills are stuff for combat... you probably only trained in that because your a psycho or a soldier of some kind.
Not a lot of spontaneous casters choose their bloodline or to be cursed by the gods. So, I think you have causality reversed.
Since we don't know the rules for Starfinder magic item construction, it's premature to be complaining about them.
IIRC anyone can craft magic items if they have ranks in Mysticism equal to the item's level. So to craft a level 1 healing serum you just need rank 1 in Mysticism.
IIRC anyone can craft magic items if they have ranks in Mysticism equal to the item's level. So to craft a level 1 healing serum you just need rank 1 in Mysticism.Since we don't know the rules for Starfinder magic item construction, it's premature to be complaining about them.
To be fair, healing serum sounds like a technological item to me, not a magical one, so it's likely another skill instead of mysticism, or at least I'd guess that.
To be fair, healing serum sounds like a technological item to me, not a magical one, so it's likely another skill instead of mysticism, or at least I'd guess that.IIRC anyone can craft magic items if they have ranks in Mysticism equal to the item's level. So to craft a level 1 healing serum you just need rank 1 in Mysticism.Since we don't know the rules for Starfinder magic item construction, it's premature to be complaining about them.
They were marked in italics on the Paizocon sheets. This could be just a typo, or it could mean that serums are magic. Or maybe serums can be either magic or tech.
They were marked in italics on the Paizocon sheets. This could be just a typo, or it could mean that serums are magic. Or maybe serums can be either magic or tech.To be fair, healing serum sounds like a technological item to me, not a magical one, so it's likely another skill instead of mysticism, or at least I'd guess that.IIRC anyone can craft magic items if they have ranks in Mysticism equal to the item's level. So to craft a level 1 healing serum you just need rank 1 in Mysticism.Since we don't know the rules for Starfinder magic item construction, it's premature to be complaining about them.
Or it could simply be that italics apply to technological items, too.
I highly doubt that. The only other items from material shown so far which are in italics are spell gems and the Eoxian Wrackstaff.
In a space fantasy technological and magical are often one and the same. Yes the dwarves can craft you a singularity cannon worthy to siege heaven with mounted on a ship powered by the frustrated wrath of a defeated god.
Or maybe serums can be either magic or tech.
Considering the emphasis I've seen so far that pretty much anything equipment-wise can usually be either or at your discretion, I would guess it's probably this one.
I've not seen this emphasis you mention, in fact, everything revealed so far indicates the opposite.
As for magic and technology being the same thing, that's not what Starfinder has been presenting itself as, the two are distinct but can interact.
According to Owen, some items are going to be purely technological, some purely magical, and some will mix the two, like the Eoxian Wrackstaff.
Developer, Starfinder Team
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Healing serum is magic.
Magic remains the best way to have a portable dose of instant wound fixing that works for any injury, on any species, with no side effects, and no shelf life.
That doesn't mean their aren't some useful science-based medicinals and gear, and patches, but magic healing serums remain the HP recovery go-to.
I may have been over-extending comments from the Cybernetics blog a bit further than they were intended to go and blending them with other statements, my bad.
That said, now we have the answer straight from the dev's keyboard.