So no current prepared casters.


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Grand Lodge

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Arquebus took 16 stages :) There's even an elevenstep song; step 10 is actually 2 steps (close and clamp), and step 11 is actually 5 steps (listen, open, aim, raise, fire)
"One, clean the gun. Two pour the powder. Three tamp the powder down. Four drop the pellet. Five drive the pellet down. Six put in paper (stopper). Seven drive the paper down. Eight open the flashpan cover. Nine pour in the flash powder. Ten close the flashpan, and clamp the fuse. Eleven, listen for the signal, then open the flashpan cover. Aiming at the enemy, raise your gun and fire."

The point is still, it doesn't take years to learn those steps, while it does take years to learn the bow well enough to reproduce the same shot every time.

Also curious as to why learning magic is easy? All the prepared/learned casters are in the highest starting age category, and the 4 level casters don't even get it until they are a few levels into their class.


I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".


Damanta wrote:

Arquebus took 16 stages :) There's even an elevenstep song; step 10 is actually 2 steps (close and clamp), and step 11 is actually 5 steps (listen, open, aim, raise, fire)

"One, clean the gun. Two pour the powder. Three tamp the powder down. Four drop the pellet. Five drive the pellet down. Six put in paper (stopper). Seven drive the paper down. Eight open the flashpan cover. Nine pour in the flash powder. Ten close the flashpan, and clamp the fuse. Eleven, listen for the signal, then open the flashpan cover. Aiming at the enemy, raise your gun and fire."

The point is still, it doesn't take years to learn those steps, while it does take years to learn the bow well enough to reproduce the same shot every time.
{. . .}

Yes, but if you do any of them in the wrong order or somebody interrupts you, it's a disaster.


Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

Breech-loaders didn't become common until the 19th century. The US Civil War was fought primarily with muzzle-loaders. Guns had been dominant over bows for centuries by that time.


Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

I can think of a few settings where magic is considered easily controlled and ubiquitous.

Eberron campaign setting
Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher


Ventnor wrote:
Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

I can think of a few settings where magic is considered easily controlled and ubiquitous.

Eberron campaign setting
Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Harry Potter magic isn't easily controlled. You have to spend seven years of studying at Hogwarts or a similar institution before you can control it properly.


And without proper training it is liable to blow up in your face because you didn't get the verbal or somatic component just right.


Thats childs play compared to warhammer where even if you get everything right your head might explode into demons. or dragon age where you might literall be demons or the Ascension where reality might slap you back or Exalted where you require 3 different spiritual awakenings and several sacrifices just to get your foot in the door.

ill fake 7 years of Severus Snape over 1 month of service to the Emperor.


Fardragon wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

I can think of a few settings where magic is considered easily controlled and ubiquitous.

Eberron campaign setting
Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Harry Potter magic isn't easily controlled. You have to spend seven years of studying at Hogwarts or a similar institution before you can control it properly.

When you have a working economy that is based entirely on magic, I'd say it can be at least reliably controlled.

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I'd make the argument that adventuring spontaneous casters tend to have adventuring focused spells, but whether a "stay at home" sorcerer would is debatable. It somewhat depends on whether you think a spontaneous caster picks his or her spells known in game, or whether they just "manifest" as things they can do, and we simply let the player choose from the options (because rolling spells known at random from a table would often result in very difficult to play PCs).

I can say that if I, in my real life position, suddenly gained 1 sorcerer level, and I got to choose my spells known, here's what I'd probably take:
0: mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation
1: silent image, unseen servant

Endure elements and comprehend languages would also be strong contenders, but magic butler and instantly displaying my thoughts for all to see would win out.

Not exactly a combat spread there. Just because PC casters would focus differently at level 1 doesn't mean that no one is taking those spells.

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Once a character realizes they are magic, they have a limited ability to shape the effects they can create (through class levels and retraining).

Their spells known reflect their personality, interests, and the situations they find themselves in (and thus the kinds of problems they need to solve with magic).


Ventnor wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

I can think of a few settings where magic is considered easily controlled and ubiquitous.

Eberron campaign setting
Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Harry Potter magic isn't easily controlled. You have to spend seven years of studying at Hogwarts or a similar institution before you can control it properly.
When you have a working economy that is based entirely on magic, I'd say it can be at least reliably controlled.

Reliable isn't the same as easy. Magic is dangerous enough in the Hogwarts-verse that it's illegal to use unless you have graduated from magic school with the right qualifications.

Liberty's Edge

Fardragon wrote:
Reliable isn't the same as easy. Magic is dangerous enough in the Hogwarts-verse that it's illegal to use unless you have graduated from magic school with the right qualifications.

Sure, but since nobody fails out of Hogwarts unless they are completely incompetent (squibs), graduation is not exactly a high bar.


Fardragon wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Fardragon wrote:

I think the point is, when the Arquebus was the best firearm available crossbows remained popular. It wasn't really until breach loading came in that firearms became ubiquitous.

But I have read many novels, seen many movies, and even read some stuff on real world magical traditions, and I can't think of any which have ever portrayed the controlled use of magic as "easy".

I can think of a few settings where magic is considered easily controlled and ubiquitous.

Eberron campaign setting
Harry Potter series by J.K. Rowling
Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Harry Potter magic isn't easily controlled. You have to spend seven years of studying at Hogwarts or a similar institution before you can control it properly.

To be fair, the average amount of time it takes a human wizard in Pathfinder is 7 years. Give or take. But Harry Potter spellcasters start school a little earlier.


DrSwordopolis wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Reliable isn't the same as easy. Magic is dangerous enough in the Hogwarts-verse that it's illegal to use unless you have graduated from magic school with the right qualifications.
Sure, but since nobody fails out of Hogwarts unless they are completely incompetent (squibs), graduation is not exactly a high bar.

Have you read the books or only seen the movies? It's quite possible to not be a squb and still fail OWLs or be expelled (as HAGRID was), in which case you are not allowed to use magic.


TarkXT wrote:

Thats childs play compared to warhammer where even if you get everything right your head might explode into demons. or dragon age where you might literall be demons or the Ascension where reality might slap you back or Exalted where you require 3 different spiritual awakenings and several sacrifices just to get your foot in the door.

ill fake 7 years of Severus Snape over 1 month of service to the Emperor.

Preach it brother.


Fardragon wrote:
DrSwordopolis wrote:
Fardragon wrote:
Reliable isn't the same as easy. Magic is dangerous enough in the Hogwarts-verse that it's illegal to use unless you have graduated from magic school with the right qualifications.
Sure, but since nobody fails out of Hogwarts unless they are completely incompetent (squibs), graduation is not exactly a high bar.
Have you read the books or only seen the movies? It's quite possible to not be a squb and still fail OWLs or be expelled (as HAGRID was), in which case you are not allowed to use magic.

Hagrid's the only such case we ever read of though, isn't he? It seems to be a pretty rare thing, especially since you can retake a failed OWL and don't even have to pass them all (indeed, almost no one even takes them all).

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I've forgotten the point of this tangent.

But, I'm pretty happy about spontaneous-only casting. Merlin knows Harry only ever learned one 2nd-year spell (Expelliarmus!), and had enough daily slots to spam it pretty frequently.


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I'm kind of sad about only spontaneous casting. I like the idea of someone having access to any spell, using specific ones when needing to (like HP wizards can use any spell at any time, they may just favor a couple), and having a digital library of spells.

I was really hyped to play a digital wizard/magus/witch/whatever, and I'm a little bummed the only option even close to that is the spontaneous technomancer. I hate having to focus on only a few spells, seems like a waste in character when I have so many spells to learn that I only for some reason choose to learn a very low number of spells.


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I swear people get so panic-stricken over everything. They can always make a prepared caster in a later book or you could just use one from pathfinder and convert it. If you figure out how many options is in pathfinder you should be able to guess its only a matter of time before they exhaust enough others to make a prepared caster for starfinder.


KingOfAnything wrote:

I've forgotten the point of this tangent.

But, I'm pretty happy about spontaneous-only casting. Merlin knows Harry only ever learned one 2nd-year spell (Expelliarmus!), and had enough daily slots to spam it pretty frequently.

Someone said magic was "easy", so the point was to show that even in a high magic setting, years of study are required.

Unlike technology, which can be used by anyone who can find the "on" switch.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I swear people get so panic-stricken over everything. They can always make a prepared caster in a later book or you could just use one from pathfinder and convert it. If you figure out how many options is in pathfinder you should be able to guess its only a matter of time before they exhaust enough others to make a prepared caster for starfinder.

It's not people being "panic-stricken", and that's a pretty rude way to describe the situation. People have things they're excited about and interested in playing- and this is one that looks like it won't be in the game, at least for a very long time (especially since Starfinder has an extremely sparse release schedule for now- the first AP is coming out over a year).

It's basically the same thing as the No Gnomes debacle, except instead of being a relatively unpopular core race it's a basic mechanic that's represented by 5 out of the 11 classes in the CRB.


No gnomes was a thing? Why not just use the 3.5 gnomes there was not that big of a difference. additionally it would not be hard to home rule a prepared caster. there is plenty of examples all you should have to change is that one feature.

If you weren't panic-stricken then assume it wasn't directed at you. I mean seriously if it doesn't apply to you assume it wasn't directed at you.


Fardragon wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

I've forgotten the point of this tangent.

But, I'm pretty happy about spontaneous-only casting. Merlin knows Harry only ever learned one 2nd-year spell (Expelliarmus!), and had enough daily slots to spam it pretty frequently.

Someone said magic was "easy", so the point was to show that even in a high magic setting, years of study are required.

Unlike technology, which can be used by anyone who can find the "on" switch.

Depends upon what stage the technology is at. Until decent GUI interfaces became widely available, using a computer required a substantial amount of instruction -- not years in this case, but then again if you go further back so that the computers didn't even have a decent command-line interface, then it got really hairy. And even today, although it is physically possible to fly an aircraft without a huge amount of instruction, it's probably not a good idea, even if you could somehow get around the legal problem . . . .

Vidmaster7 wrote:


No gnomes was a thing? Why not just use the 3.5 gnomes there was not that big of a difference. additionally it would not be hard to home rule a prepared caster. there is plenty of examples all you should have to change is that one feature.

This is probably referring to the launch of 4th Edition. And yes, it was announced in the lead-up that Gnome would not be considered a Core Race, whereas Tiefling was upgraded to a Core Race.


Oh OK Yeah I skipped 4th edition. It was not because of gnomes however.
I do remember the hilarious little videos they made. So I do remember hearing about it now.


Those videos (and the virtual tabletop that some of them were advertising) were unbelievably cheesy . . . .


The virtual tabletop that you had to pay a subscription for was one of the things that made me not do 4. They were cheesey but I was like 19 so cheesy worked on me.


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Aratrok wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
I swear people get so panic-stricken over everything. They can always make a prepared caster in a later book or you could just use one from pathfinder and convert it. If you figure out how many options is in pathfinder you should be able to guess its only a matter of time before they exhaust enough others to make a prepared caster for starfinder.

It's not people being "panic-stricken", and that's a pretty rude way to describe the situation. People have things they're excited about and interested in playing- and this is one that looks like it won't be in the game, at least for a very long time (especially since Starfinder has an extremely sparse release schedule for now- the first AP is coming out over a year).

It's basically the same thing as the No Gnomes debacle, except instead of being a relatively unpopular core race it's a basic mechanic that's represented by 5 out of the 11 classes in the CRB.

I would say that it isn't really comparable. Why not? Because Starfinder is not 2nd Edition Pathfinder. It is a new game (all be it sharing the same universe), and Pathfinder will continue to be supported, prepared casters and all.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Those videos (and the virtual tabletop that some of them were advertising) were unbelievably cheesy . . . .

Yeah, but cheesy in an enjoyable way, at least as far as the excitable gnome was concerned. I named my PFS gnome Summoner's eidolon (Agathion with the appearance of a dire badger) Francisco, in honor of the gnome's minion, Francis.


Quote:
Hagrid's the only such case we ever read of though, isn't he?

wasn't the janitor another case?

Quote:
except instead of being a relatively unpopular core race

Didn't like the gnomes before pathfinder that much either. But I really like the pf gnomes :D


Seisho wrote:
Quote:
Hagrid's the only such case we ever read of though, isn't he?

wasn't the janitor another case?

Filch was a squib.


And to correct an earlier statement a Squib is not someone who is "totally incompetent", a squib is someone who does not have magic at all despite coming from a magic family.


Shinigami02 wrote:
And to correct an earlier statement a Squib is not someone who is "totally incompetent", a squib is someone who does not have magic at all despite coming from a magic family.

I tend to think of the Pathfinder equivalent of a squib is someone with a 9 in their casting stat.


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Fardragon wrote:
Unlike technology, which can be used by anyone who can find the "on" switch.

You've never worked an IT support desk, have you?

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