Also, I suppose a Warslinger Halfling can use Gun Twirling with slings. Which means TWF with slings. That's cool.
So where Shield Brace explicitly works via weapon group, a lot of other abilities don't. I think a lot of this is going to hinge on whether putting a weapon in the "firearms weapon group" makes it a firearm, or if there's some other necessary qualification.
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That said, it's going to be an exciting time for the Rules Questions forum. ^_^
True. I've tried asking if feats like Startoss Style work with slings in the past to no response. So once I have the book or some with the book could do it for us, we'll see what others think.
Hint hint for the folks with the PDF, could you ask this for me? I'm literally brimming with ideas right now but I need to be certain.
Imagine. Mysterious Stranger+Trench Fighter. The damage....
Keep in mind, the text just adds it to the fighter weapon group. That's it.
So just because only firearms are in the firearm fighter weapon group doesn't mean that something added to it becomes a firearm for the purposes of things that don't reference firearms.
Still, very good for Brawlers.
Definitely. But I think this is a great opportunity to have clarified the difference being in a weapon group and being that weapon, don't you think ;)
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So, brawlers can now flurry with basically anything melee (with the right investments), right? So, Flurry of Ladders is officially a thing?
Or flurry with the ginormous axe mentioned earlier, yeah. Which might well look like a goblin ball and chain fanatic with the right setup.
So, brawlers can now flurry with basically anything melee (with the right investments), right? So, Flurry of Ladders is officially a thing?So... play as a Down on his luck actor looking to find the right troupe to turn him into a star, with his trusty ladder by his side... Charlie Chaplin meets Jackie Chan Style?
Or go full Stuntman with a few Avenger/Stalker Vigilante levels?
I'm thinking overconfident bar ownerships carries a ladder to see over the counter and beat down anyone foolish enough to start a fight with her 3'7, 96 pounds of pure unadulterated gnomish bad#$$ personally.
There's also the "Tactically Adapted" modification, which lets you add blocking, brace, disarm, distracting, nonlethal, performance, or trip to the weapon. :D
Or is it simply "fine?" Don't feel like you need to go to an extreme if you don't feel it's warranted. I am opening this discussion in the hopes of better ascertaining whether or not the new book material is balanced or not, according to popular opinion.
I personally am excited to see some of the new items and rules, but a few make me wonder if they are balanced options.
Such as the new armor modification (1,000gp for mundane armor, 1,500gp for magical armor) that increases max Dex by 2 and ACP by 1, in return for -1 armor bonus and +5 lb.
This is something Dex characters have needed for a LONG time, but is it balanced?
How about a new exotic two-handed "butcher axe" that does 3d6 20/x3 base damage in return for a -2 to hit UNLESS you have 19 Strength (if Med) or 17 Strength (if Small)?
Still balanced? It seems to me we have some nice new toys for both Dexterity characters and Strength characters. Are martials finally getting some nice things? Or is this a bad sign of power bloat?
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on these and other new features of this intriguing tome.
To be honest, I think the options aren't really that good to warrant the added expenditures (in terms of value and feat opportunity costs), so balance isn't really an issue. (Then again, it's Paizo we're talking about, and we need to understand that their form of "balance" isn't the same as our concept of balance.)
The issue would stem from whether the options are going to be popular (too popular), or if they're just like feats such as Monkey Lunge, which are broken and just don't function, or if they're feats like Prone Shooter, which function but are so pointless to nab that they're not worthwhile to take. In other words, how many target audiences does the new material actually affect?
For the min-maxers, the new adjustments you've mentioned so far fall under the latter concept (i.e. Prone Shooter). They function, but they aren't really worth the cost (or penalties) for the benefits you gain. For the more casual players, they appear nice to have, and as such would be more desirable for them. However, the other problem then becomes that players who are casual probably won't be looking for options like these unless they're really desperate to shore up their character flaws.
Let's take, for example, the armor modification(s). A truly min-maxed Dex build would preferably use an armor that doesn't have a Maximum Dexterity Bonus, since even if you're using Darkleaf Leather Armor with the modification, a +12 Dexterity Bonus, they're still going to be losing out on some dexterity bonuses to AC. Hell, several Dex builds would actually rather have Bracers of Armor over any type of armor, since the Bracers of Armor do add more raw AC compared to other armors that can accommodate their unbelievable Dexterity. Which means the armor modification doesn't really help true min-maxers.
But would the armor modification prove useful for someone who isn't a min-maxer, has a decent Dexterity, and wants to make full use of it? Sure. That Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin now doesn't have to sacrifice base Armor bonuses to make use of his higher-than-expected Dexterity modifier. In short, it's helpful for secondary-statted characters, but useless/pointless for primary-statted characters.
Next, we have the new weapon, which is basically a non-flavored/re-flavored Minotaur Axe that deals Large Greatsword damage with a Greataxe multiplier, and has a minimum Strength requirement (AKA, you need to be min-maxed to fully appreciate this weapon). It's effectively an exaggerated transition from a Longsword to a Bastard Sword with the worse range (but better multiplier) of a Greatsword.
However, the factor that it's an Exotic Weapon (which means you have to spend a feat or suffer even more penalties), that you need a minimum score to properly wield it (usually exclusive to Composite Bows), and that the only key difference between this axe and a Greataxe is 1D6 (aka the equivalent of a Flaming/Frost/Shocking/Corrosive property benefit), you're still hard-pressed in justifying spending a feat for 1-6 damage.
Granted, it's a much better transition and more worthwhile than, say, Longsword to Bastard Sword, and it works better with Vital Strike builds due to the increased base damage, the problem becomes that the expenditures, for the most part, aren't worthwhile unless you can effectively get them hard-built into your class.
A Vital Striking Warpriest with this axe (who I believe gets proficiency just for choosing it for Weapon Focus) would be devastating, since they're the class that benefits most from Vital Striking (Weapon of the Chosen feat chain and 3/4 BAB while still able to select Vital Strike feats at class level), but for every other class that's either full BAB or can't easily get proficiency or feats in this weapon? Isn't particularly worth it.
So, I find that at best, the new options you've listed (so far) just better help niche builds function more competitively, which can be a good thing, but as far as it being completely unbalanced and changing the dynamic between min-maxing martials, it's quite dubious to say that is indeed the case.
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Introducing the new Armor Modifications Comparison Table!
Finding the right suit of armor for your character has never been easier! :D
A Vital Striking Warpriest with this axe (who I believe gets proficiency just for choosing it for Weapon Focus) would be devastating, since they're the class that benefits most from Vital Striking (Weapon of the Chosen feat chain and 3/4 BAB while still able to select Vital Strike feats at class level), but for every other class that's either full BAB or can't easily get proficiency or feats in this weapon? Isn't particularly worth it.
I think this only works if there's a deity out there that has the Butcher's Axe as their favored weapon, since the WP gets auto-proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (generally redundant because they already have martial proficiencies) and the weapon of the chosen feats specify "When you use your deity’s favored weapon".
Assuming there's no deity out there who favors the Butcher Axe, I'm not so sure the vital striking Butcher Axe WP is a better choice than a Vital Striking Greatsword Gorumite WP. The latter gets the weapon of the chosen feats and the ability to Vital Strike on a charge and doesn't have to worry about spending a feat on proficiency. The damage is less absurd, but the accuracy and mobility is better.
A Vital Striking Warpriest with this axe (who I believe gets proficiency just for choosing it for Weapon Focus) would be devastating, since they're the class that benefits most from Vital Striking (Weapon of the Chosen feat chain and 3/4 BAB while still able to select Vital Strike feats at class level), but for every other class that's either full BAB or can't easily get proficiency or feats in this weapon? Isn't particularly worth it.I think this only works if there's a deity out there that has the Butcher's Axe as their favored weapon, since the WP gets auto-proficiency in their deity's favored weapon (generally redundant because they already have martial proficiencies) and the weapon of the chosen feats specify "When you use your deity’s favored weapon".
Assuming there's no deity out there who favors the Butcher Axe, I'm not so sure the vital striking Butcher Axe WP is a better choice than a Vital Striking Greatsword Gorumite WP. The latter gets the weapon of the chosen feats and the ability to Vital Strike on a charge and doesn't have to worry about spending a feat on proficiency. The damage is less absurd, but the accuracy and mobility is better.
Probably. I'm not 100% certain of Warpriest mechanics.
All I'm saying is that Warpriests are probably the only class that can make the most use of the weapon, and everybody else won't be able to simply due to proficiency or lack of BAB, or even both. The investment just isn't worth the ~3.5 damage differential, even with the most optimized of Vital Strike builds.
@ Ravingdork: While the table is helpful, it also exposes a glaring problem with how Nimble is quite niche and Double-Plated is either pointless (might as well move up to the next armor category) or basically if Armor were able to be classified as Exotic Weapons in the case of Heavy Armor, which is that it's sub-par and is basically a feat for +1 AC (at the additional cost of 2 MDB and increased ACP). In which case, feats like Armor Focus and Dodge are much more valuable, since they don't have the added baggage.
I might end up creating a deity that favors the Butcher Axe just to see how this works on the WP in play. If it's too big a problem, I can always kill them off later (whatever deity favors the *BUTCHER AXE* is probably not very nice anyway.)
I agree that it's probably not a great idea for most classes. Might work okay on a fighter, but "only the fighter can make effective use of this thing" is just fine if the fighter is only out one feat instead 3-5.
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Dakrsol, some mods don't cost much of anything.
Take a fighter, for example. He likely has his primary weapon--say a greatsword perhaps--which he has invested weapon training in. He also happens to have a backup simple weapon, like a dagger (which he might have a lesser weapon training). He can mod that dagger (making it a martial weapon) so that it now shares the weapon training bonuses of his greatsword.
That's not too shabby for what amounts to just a little bit of gold. Especially when you consider the notion that he can replace his light blade weapon training for an advanced weapon training option from the Weapon Master's Handbook.
It's essentially a strict upgrade for the character.
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Half elf can get a free exotic weapon proficiency.
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Yeah, nothing so far seems like it really matters balance-wise. The ability to make better weapons close weapons powers up brawlers a bit (as it let's them use weapons with better crit profiles or use reach weapons, and let's them work with Outslug Style if I'm reading these posts correctly) but in the long run just makes them a slightly different form of fighter. Reach tricks are cool, but other classes (particularly spellcasters like Druid) are still better.
For the new weapons, most of them (like most weapons) wil rarely see play except in niche builds. Armor Mods aren't bad either, but mixing up the AC/Max Dex ratio really doesn't do too much. Double-Plated Haramaki might be worth it, since there still don't appear to be any real penalties (oh no, I take a -0 non proficiency penalty and suffer a 0% arcane spell failure chance) but for most builds using haramaki a +1 AC for 1000gp isn't all that important.
Half elf can get a free exotic weapon proficiency.
Standard min-maxed warpriest is almost always a half-orc because the fate's favored trait boosts both Sacred Tattoo and Divine Favor/Power (which you're going to be swift action casting a whole lot.) That might be better than saving a feat.
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Are martials finally getting some nice things?
Oy now. What's going on in this thread?
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And at level 1 I can do 8d6+40 on a scythe crit with that same enlarged barabarian.
Arguably this is better because less of my damage is roll dependant. It's a martial weapon too
It's not that much better than existing weapons due to A) being exotic and B) Its fairly comparable to other high crit weapons.
And yes, 20 Strength is an optimized barbarian :)
Davor Firetusk: an enlarged, raging, 1st level barbarian critting with a 24 strength wielding a dwarven Longhammer is going to one shot whatever it hits just like a butchers axe. I fail to see how having more overkill 'severely messes up' anything. the ONLY thing the axe really does is give vital strike builds a better weapon, which IMO is a good thing.
Jurassic Pratt: If we go exotic vs exotic, you could pick a Tetsubo. The extra crit multiplier is going to do more than the bigger die.
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At least a lot of the new exotic weapons are not a weapon of a lower catagory but worse.
Like Dagger / War Razor / Butterfly Knife. Where the Dagger has remained Superior to them. heck the butterfly knife came out in the original adventuer's armory.
Katar, Tribladed got knocked down to a Martial Prof making a pretty strong light x4 crit weapon.
All I'm saying is that Warpriests are probably the only class that can make the most use of the weapon, and everybody else won't be able to simply due to proficiency or lack of BAB, or even both. The investment just isn't worth the ~3.5 damage differential, even with the most optimized of Vital Strike builds.
I mean, you don't HAVE to use Vital Strike for the weapon to be any good.
Any amount of weapon size increases will make the weapon fairly strong (Impact, Enlarge Person, Oversized Weapons), and a 1-6 damage increase for a feat is not actually that bad given some other feats granting similar increases, and damage over an entire full attack. It's more swingy, but on average an increase of +3-4 is actually fairly good when you consider Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization are a +4, and this gives that damage upfront. If we're looking for as much damage as possible edit: on a non-crit attack, this is a very good investment for feat expenditure. If you actually spent a feat, that is. Half-elves give up almost nothing for proficiency (skill focus? whatever :P)
As for the armour, double-plated on non-heavy armour seems good to me if your character is going to otherwise have limited Dexterity (+2 at minimum for most of your career), and doesn't have heavy armour proficiency and not expected to get it or can't use it to it's fullest effectiveness. Later it should be replaced. That's fine. The upfront increase is good enough in my opinion for the cost, particularly since it doesn't impact enhancement bonuses as well. If you're a fighter, it can also be fairly useful thanks to armour training, and even justifiable on heavy armour and adding mithral on top, allowing you to otherwise ignore the penalty. In general though, I don't see it worthwhile on heavy armour.
And if you have an abnormally large Dex for a non-Dex focused build, or just a +2, and want to still use full plate and not play a hellknight, Nimble seems really good for what it gives you.
TL:DR; No, it's not celestial armour, but not everyone can afford that at 3rd level :U
Half elf can get a free exotic weapon proficiency.Standard min-maxed warpriest is almost always a half-orc because the fate's favored trait boosts both Sacred Tattoo and Divine Favor/Power (which you're going to be swift action casting a whole lot.) That might be better than saving a feat.
It's not about saving a feat. It's about getting the proficiency at level 1, which normally requires +1 BAB.
Katar, Tribladed got knocked down to a Martial Prof making a pretty strong light x4 crit weapon.
Nice. it's about time it sees an update. They make nice weapons for a brawler.
Introducing the new Armor Modifications Comparison Table!
Finding the right suit of armor for your character has never been easier! :D
Thanks for building out the table. Spidersilk suit aside, this looks very, very promising.
WHAT GOOD IS A HIT, IF IT IS NOT A CRIT?
IT ISN'T BUSTO. WHAT A DUMB QUESTION!
If the weapon isn't 15-20 after Improved Critical, it isn't worth my money or time!
It's not about saving a feat. It's about getting the proficiency at level 1, which normally requires +1 BAB.Half elf can get a free exotic weapon proficiency.Standard min-maxed warpriest is almost always a half-orc because the fate's favored trait boosts both Sacred Tattoo and Divine Favor/Power (which you're going to be swift action casting a whole lot.) That might be better than saving a feat.
Human and military tradition get 2 free weapon proficiencies at first.
Garbage-Tier Waifu: Something to add to your question on weapon modification. Does adding light/heavy blade to a weapon let it qualify for a tengu's Swordtrained prerequisite of 'swordlike weapons'?
Garbage-Tier Waifu: Something to add to your question on weapon modification. Does adding light/heavy blade to a weapon let it qualify for a tengu's Swordtrained prerequisite of 'swordlike weapons'?
You should probably level some of those questions over here, since I'm trying to get a straight answer on this business.
Human and military tradition get 2 free weapon proficiencies at firstIt's not about saving a feat. It's about getting the proficiency at level 1, which normally requires +1 BAB.Half elf can get a free exotic weapon proficiency.Standard min-maxed warpriest is almost always a half-orc because the fate's favored trait boosts both Sacred Tattoo and Divine Favor/Power (which you're going to be swift action casting a whole lot.) That might be better than saving a feat.
Hadn't noticed that option before, but I think I'd still rather go half elf most of the time. Good to know though.
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I still maintain that axe is severely messed up for low level play. A boring not terribly optimized human 1st level barbarian can get enlarged and easily have 24 STR while raging. That enlarged axe critical is going to do 12d6 +30 damage
So, spent your first level feat on proficiency. Compare to a barbarian who picked up a scythe and power attack for 8d6+52. Average is higher (80 v 72) on a crit. Both can oneshot a CR 5 creature, neither are terribly likely to occur.
Alternatively, you got the proficient for free and had room for power attack. So, 12d6+39 (avg 81). Now you are one point higher than scythes on average. Or you could've used a tetsubo with your free proficiency for 8d8+52 (avg 88) and still done more on that crit. Not critting, you do less without the axebu the +10 can take down a lot. Or you could have grabbed Furious Focus instead of a proficiency and hit more often, or iron will and be less likely to be KO'd by a colorspray in the surprise round, or taken toughness to withstand more hits, or raging vitality to avoid barbarian sudden death syndrome (not a huge deal at first level, but scales well), or any number of options that would have improved more than raw damage while still swinging for 3d6+10/x3 on an earthbreaker.
The problem isn't the axe but the fact that low-level PCs and enemies alike can be taken down pretty easily by bad luck and a big stick.
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Garbage-Tier Waifu: Something to add to your question on weapon modification. Does adding light/heavy blade to a weapon let it qualify for a tengu's Swordtrained prerequisite of 'swordlike weapons'?
Good question.
I brought up a similar question in the product thread, would Swordtrained allow a Tengu to wield a Modified Exotic swordlike weapon without needing the extra feat?
Modding a weapon raises the proficiency required to wield a weapon, (Simple > Martial > Exotic > Weapon Adept feat). And it is specifically called out that having a "specific" proficiency (such as Clerics/Warpriests getting their Deities weapon) would not help when wielding a Modded weapon of that type.
This will probably be a good contender for the first FAQ request to come from this book.
And it is specifically called out that having a "specific" proficiency (such as Clerics/Warpriests getting their Deities weapon) would not help when wielding a Modded weapon of that type.
Does it still count as the base item? for instance, does a weapon focus [longsword] work in a modded longsword? or does modding make it a 100% new weapon?
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Davor, you're missing a critical part of the equation. At level 1 you're already killing CR appropriate monsters with 1 hit from the scythe or tetsubo just like the butcher's axe.
5 damage just isn't that big of a difference. I also don't understand what you mean by "an entire HD worth of difference" as hit die do not inherently grant +5 damage.
Weapon Focus et al should still work fine. It's only the proficiency that gets funky. ^_^
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Weapon Focus et al should still work fine. It's only the proficiency that gets funky. ^_^
So I take that to mean an longsword that requires an exotic weapon proficiency because of moding, still counts as a longsword for things that require one? If so, that's not bad.
PS: This makes me question how "specific" proficiency works if someone that is proficient with longswords isn't proficient with a modded one but still gets the weapon focus for it...
PPS: I REALLY need to get a look at this book. :P
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Not really. 1d6 more than a greatsword. Big whoop. So a greatsword wielder can just barely not 1 shot some things at APL+2 while he's level 1 compared to a butcher axe wielder can cuz his max damage is 6 higher.
It's not that big of a deal man. You're freaking out about max damage, it doesn't happen that often. You also had to spend a feat to get that extra d6.
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Not really. 1d6 more than a greatsword. Big whoop.
Yep. it's a single sneak attack die equivalent...
Rysky: Yep, the MINIMUM damage boost is a bigger deal for me with my rolls. :P
Davor Firetusk: "More specifically a 30 HP creature will be 1 shot just under 24% of the hits with a 4d6 +13." I think part of the issue is you're looking at the damage as 4d6. You're assuming enlarge, which is another resource that only lasts a min. So you have that damage for 1 or 2 fights and the cost of someone's action for a round. So even that 'one shot' isn't a 1 attack kill but a multiple action. For instance, the caster that cast that on you could have instead hit it with their greatsword an did more damage than your d6 did heck, his cantrip could have done more damage...
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
