|
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi,
Recently I together with my friends got trouble from five-foot step combined with other effects that make your character moved.
It is said that "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement", so I wonder that a magus(spell dancer) with Dimensional Agility at 9th level can start the spell dance before use DDoor as a swift action,and spell combat as a full round action to full attack, then five foot step away from the enemy to cast Bladed Dash so that she can get away from the BBEG that suddenly get full attacked.
That's incredible tactics, but does the movement caused by spells like DDoor or Bladed Dash counts as "movements" that prohibit five-foot step? I knew that people in the forum had two contrary opinions on this question, so I have to turn to somebody who has the "power" to solve this problem. As you know, there are many rule problems to be solved because of five foot step, such as if a guy who get bull rushed could make a 5-foot step in the same round or not.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
At 5th level, once per spell dance as a swift action, the spell dancer may use one of the following on himself as a swift action: blur, fly, or haste. These abilities last for 1 round. At 9th level, the spell dancer may instead take a swift action to use dimension door as a spell-like ability once during a spelldance. At 13th level, the spell dancer may instead choose to take a swift action to gain freedom of movement for 1d4 rounds.
This ability replaces the magus's ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding magic bonuses for 1 minute.
Dimensional Agility
Teleportation does not faze you.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.
Source Inner Sea Magic pg. 52 (Amazon)
School transmutation; Level bard 2, magus 2, skald 2
--------------------------------
Casting
--------------------------------
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
--------------------------------
Effect
--------------------------------
Range personal
Target you
Duration instantaneous
--------------------------------
Description
--------------------------------
Both Quantium and Jalmeray claim that this spell was born in their arcane universities. Regardless of the spell’s origin, it quickly spread throughout the Inner Sea and beyond as spellcasting sword-fighters learned of its existence.
When you cast this spell, you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction, momentarily leaving a multi-hued cascade of images behind you. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You may make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against any one creature you are adjacent to at any point along this 30 feet. You gain a circumstance bonus on your attack roll equal to your Intelligence or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher. You must end the bonus movement granted by this spell in an unoccupied square. If no such space is available along the trajectory, the spell fails. Despite the name, the spell works with any melee weapon.
|
|
however, is a DC 19 concentration check too difficult at level 9 or higher? Is there a reason not to cast defensively? (If I'm interpreting the spell correctly, this would even grant an extra attack against the original target against the BBEG that was unexpectedly full attacked.)
In fact I just want to make a situation that a character use spells to move physically rather than teleport to compare with Dimension Door. Casting defensively means more resources spent on concentration checks with a possibility to fail. And also a back step before a dash sounds cool...That's quite another thing. After all, what I want to know is how to deal with this rule.
the tactic "5' step away and cast d-door" would not be possible. A gm could certainly interpret conjuration (teleportation) as "any other type of movement", but hopefully, the gm would be consistent with that ruling for NPCs as well as PCs this person might have in other Pathfinder games (unless, of course, different home rules apply).
Is there a Pathfinder adventure where an ennemy use this tactic ? :)
'cause the rules are quite clear : "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
So if I readied an action to drag or bull rush someone during their turn would they not be able to take a 5 foot step during their turn since they moved. If they had already taken a 5 foot step, would they be immune to the drag or bull rush?
You didn't move, despite getting unintentionally moved. So you can take a 5 ft step.
Your move is as much of a move as something like bladed dash.
Let's pick something in the middle. What if a heavens shaman uses heavens leap on you in the middle of your turn?
You didn't move, despite getting unintentionally moved. So you can take a 5 ft step.
Your move is as much of a move as something like bladed dash.
Let's pick something in the middle. What if a heavens shaman uses heavens leap in you in the middle of your turn?
YOU have not moved... Someone has moved you that's not the same... If YOU move then you can't 5' Step...
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.
If someone teleport you it's not you moving, it's someone moving you... If you use teleportation it's you moving... ;)
You as a body have moved in both case but if you are moved by someone else you, as in yourself, have not initiated a movement, you have not moved you have been moved... It's a small difference but it's the difference that let you take 5' step or not... :p
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.So if you cast defensively and DD away from something it gets an AOO for moving out a a threatened area?
That takes a feat.You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.So if you cast defensively and DD away from something it gets an AOO for moving out a a threatened area?
Then that would suggest it's not movement. If this was movement I'd think that any teleportation they do use should prevent them from moving using an allowed move action if they teleported further than their speed (barring things like Dimension Door's effect of ending your turn immediately after use).
However, this isn't the case, since teleport spells move you, not you moving as a result of the spell. There is a very, very distinct difference here.
Bladed Dash, on the other hand, is granting you movement, and is actually a move, as it explains in the spell. So that spell would prevent five-foot steps. Dimension Door is not, it's moving you from your square, not you moving yourself.
Not that this really matters too much for magi, since you get some bonuses on concentration and you can take penalties for more if you're really worried about failing the DC 19 check to cast defensively (not particularly hard at above 9th or with the Concentrate arcana)
|
There are lots of definitions of 'Move'. We're currently moving through space on the Earth. If you're on a ship, you're moving across the ocean. If I'm on a horse, I can guide the horse to move me across the battlefield. I can (really I can) harness arcane energies to wink me out of existence in one place and make me reappear in another. None of these things prevent a 5' step because they aren't Movement, as outlined in Chapter 7 of the Core Rulebook, starting on Page 160. Note that in the case of the horse, I'm the controlling agent. Is my control of the horse any different than my control of magic that makes me teleport?
I get that there are going to be corner cases and, obviously judging by this thread, disagreements. But that's how every game I've been in has treated the situation, at least as far as I'm aware, obviously it doesn't come up at every table.
@Fuzzy-Wuzzy: Why does it take a feat to take that AoO? Because Teleport magic isn't 'movement' as referenced by the Movement section of the book and the AoO rules. The feat you're referencing has nothing to do with AoOs related to movement.
English is so heavily context sensitive that it makes writing a really tight set of rules difficult. I guess it would be nice to get a FAQ entry to clear the matter up completely.
I mean, I just realised for this player they shouldn't worry too much. Swift action spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity.
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
So all you would need to do is start a fight with Bladed Dash via Spell Combat, then swift action teleport away for another Bladed Dash the following turn. Something to suggest for your player, OP.
This argument has been had before.
There are two camps:
1) If you change position then you have moved and are thus ineligible to use a 5' step.
2) The 5' step restriction against movement is referencing things for which you use feet, fins, etc etc. Ie: an actual movement mode and thus teleportation does not qualify.
I am firmly on the side of #2. The 5' restriction was intended to work with movement modes, not abilities which teleport you around the battlefield.
|
|
So all you would need to do is start a fight with Bladed Dash via Spell Combat, then swift action teleport away for another Bladed Dash the following turn. Something to suggest for your player, OP.
Much thanks. I really like the explanation that teleportation moves the player.
The 5' restriction was intended to work with movement modes, not abilities which teleport you around the battlefield.
That's it. I think I could take this to persuade my friends...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.
You have only moved if you took an action to displace yourself (teleport, move, swap positions, bull rush).
If someone took a move to move you, you still have not moved.
I'm in Camp #2 above but count teleport measured in ft in that restriction.
Seems to be a hot topic...
I gave this answer in another post similar to this one. I feel that only movement that counts against your actual measured movement for that round matters for allowing a 5FS (5 foot step).
My reasoning...
you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance
Since 5FS availability is keyed to you not moving any distance in your current round it makes little sense for it to apply to things/people/events that move you in ways that do not use your available movement. Having it nullified by any movement sets up very easy ways to destroy access to 5FS and also bring up situations where the 5FS would have been invalid that round.
Examples:
You get bull rushed any distance... you can still full attack, move, etc... should still be ok to 5FS.
Lets say you have 10ft of move. Casting "Bladed Dash" to "move" 30ft and resolve the spell attack along the way well exceeds what you could have done... but.... you can still move normally before or after this spell... should still be ok to 5FS.
Your Wizard friend casts Dimension Door and moves you and a few others to your opponent, the Wizard can no longer act as per the spell but now nobody else can 5FS?.. but can still otherwise act normally? Sounds odd..
Reverse of previous, you all 5FS to the wizard who gets all of you out of combat range with Dimension Door... did all of you take an illegal step?
Or...
Take a 5fs and be immune to being bull rushed until the start of your next turn.
A new thread (with more FAQ hits already) has been created HERE. Please go FAQ.
This argument has been had before.
There are two camps:
1) If you change position then you have moved and are thus ineligible to use a 5' step.2) The 5' step restriction against movement is referencing things for which you use feet, fins, etc etc. Ie: an actual movement mode and thus teleportation does not qualify.
I am firmly on the side of #2. The 5' restriction was intended to work with movement modes, not abilities which teleport you around the battlefield.
If this is your position, how would you work using HIPS (non-environment based) after a teleport, as using stealth requires movement?
If this is your position, how would you work using HIPS (non-environment based) after a teleport, as using stealth requires movement?This argument has been had before.
There are two camps:
1) If you change position then you have moved and are thus ineligible to use a 5' step.2) The 5' step restriction against movement is referencing things for which you use feet, fins, etc etc. Ie: an actual movement mode and thus teleportation does not qualify.
I am firmly on the side of #2. The 5' restriction was intended to work with movement modes, not abilities which teleport you around the battlefield.
I assume you are referencing this rule:
Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
In general anything that is referencing movement is referencing the movement rules on pages 170 and 192 and thus is intended to mean a movement mode such as base (walking), fly, swim, climb, or burrow movement speeds.
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.You have only moved if you took an action to displace yourself (teleport, move, swap positions, bull rush).
If someone took a move to move you, you still have not moved.
I'm in Camp #2 above but count teleport measured in ft in that restriction.
I agree with Risner here.
1) If the extra-dimensional movement takes an action to perform (normally a move action, but could be swift or standard), you have moved and are not eligible for a 5' step.
2) If you have been a victim of (voluntarily or not) of a shift in position, extra-dimensional or not, you have not moved and thus are eligible for a 5' step, in the absence of #1.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.
lol. One of those instances where I kinda wish they'd have invented entirely new words for the game mechanics, rather than using existing words with existing definitiions for in game things with game mechanical definitions.
Yes, you are correct, that would be movement as per the word's normal definition in the english language.
For game mechanics, not really sure what they intend. Definitely doesn't seem as clear cut as the the other definition.
I hate double-posting, but we have two parallel threads, so...
The specific rules in the PRD are:
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
And I see these distinct schools of thought emerging here.
1. Movement means “Tactical Movement”
The 5-foot step rules come from the Combat section of the RPD, and the movement rules in combat cover tactical movement, which is movement through squares, potentially hampered by terrain and blocked by objects.
Teleportation, Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and other instantaneous movement effects do not qualify as tactical movement because they are instantaneous transport from one square to another. They do not pass through squares between the starting and ending square, they ignore barriers and obstacles, are not hampered by terrain, and are not a standard form of movement (creatures do not have a “teleportation speed” like they do a burrow, climb, or swim speed). These spells do not prevent a 5’ step.
What about Bladed Dash?
Bladed Dash grants a bonus 30' movement that is in addition to your allowed actions for a round. The movement is tactical movement that moves through squares. There is no rule that says bonus movement invalidates the restriction on 5-foot steps.
If my magus has a familiar and I cast it on my familiar, they get the bonus movement. They have moved, and thus can’t take a 5’ step. I didn’t move, and can take a 5-step.
2. Movement means “Spent an action to control my position”
The 5-foot rules say movement, and they mean any movement whatsoever. Logically, all creatures are “moving” through space, so what it really means is “I am consciously acting to control my position”, hence, spending an action to do so.
Teleport, Dimension Door, and Plane Shift count as movement if I am the spell caster, because I cast the spell, which is a standard action. The people I take with me are along for the ride, did not spend the action that produce the movement effect, and thus are not moved. The spell caster cannot make a 5’ step. The passengers can.
What about Bladed Dash?
I cast the spell, so I can’t take a 5’ step.
If I cast it on my familiar, things get weird. My familiar may or may not be able to take a 5 foot step. On the one hand, my spell moved them, but on the other hand it’s a bonus movement where they move.
Logically, they shouldn’t be granted the 5’ step but it could be legal under the base assumption of "took an action to control my position" since I did the casting and the spell moved them, and it didn't cost them an action. There's potentially an exploit where both of us could be allowed a 5' step. I didn't try to control my position, and the familiar didn't spend an action to try and control their position.
3. Movement means “I moved or someone moved me”
Movement is movement regardless of how it occurred, though to keep it logical, we need a workable reference frame like “relative to the surface”. So, if I am on a moving ship, but I am standing still on the deck, I am not “moving”.
Teleport, Dimension Door, and Plane Shift count as movement for everyone, caster and passengers, because we all moved. None of us can take a 5’ step.
If I cast Bladed Dash on my familiar, they can’t take a 5’ step but I can.
However, weird artifacts pop up. For example, Bull Rush: If I am successfully pushed back by a Bull Rush, I have moved, and now I can’t take a 5’ step. We have to comb through the rules to find weird situations that cause me to be moved and deny me a 5’ step.
There is also a problem for fliers. They can be moved by high winds. And their movement has to be relative to something. Usually that is “the ground”, but there’s not always a ground.
This interpretation is problematic on a number of fronts.
Other notes and my thoughts
As a side note, there are other game mechanics that grant bonus actions (e.g., spending a Hero Point can grant you an additional move or standard action) that can give you extra movement. Bladed Dash is called out because that movement happens immediately and is specifically prescribed by the spell.
I think #1 is the easiest to deal with because it carves out a very clear and identifiable exception to movement rules, and doesn't have any screwy edge cases where things get weird. I prefer simplicity when given the choice.
I think #2 is a fine interpretation, but it does have potential edge cases and exploits. To me that means headaches for a GM. But, those edge cases are rare, so YMMV.
#3 is not viable.
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.lol. One of those instances where I kinda wish they'd have invented entirely new words for the game mechanics, rather than using existing words with existing definitiions for in game things with game mechanical definitions.
Actually, they kind of did. Read the descriptions for Teleport and Dimension Door. No variations of the word "move" appear in either of them.
|
|
You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.lol. One of those instances where I kinda wish they'd have invented entirely new words for the game mechanics, rather than using existing words with existing definitiions for in game things with game mechanical definitions.
Actually, they kind of did. Read the descriptions for Teleport and Dimension Door. No variations of the word "move" appear in either of them.
Nah, I mean not using the phrase "Movement" as a game term, since it implies using the dictionary definition.
"Any other kind of movement" means exactly that - whether that movement is magical or mundane.
Movement, and the types of movement available in Pathfinder are specifically defined.
- Teleportation is not included under Special Movement Types.
- Involuntary changes in location are not a defined mode of movement.
- Is a character on a sailing ship or flying castle moving or stationary? How about an airborne character just above the ship's deck?
- Does taking a 5' step render you immune to combat maneuvers, spells that force you to change position, and falling?
Please do not answer in absolutes without first looking into both the actual RAW and considering in-game ramifications.
Nah, I mean not using the phrase "Movement" as a game term, since it implies using the dictionary definition.You HAVE moved because you are not in the same spot you were before. It's the same reason that teleporting is considered moving.lol. One of those instances where I kinda wish they'd have invented entirely new words for the game mechanics, rather than using existing words with existing definitiions for in game things with game mechanical definitions.
Actually, they kind of did. Read the descriptions for Teleport and Dimension Door. No variations of the word "move" appear in either of them.
There is a game specific description of Movement Here. We have no need to rely on the dictionary's definition.
You could just ready an action to get both. Take a 5 foot step and then just ready an action to cast bladed dash when the next creature's turn begins.