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Casting dimension door doesn't count as movement. Your location changes but you don't "move".
Bladed dash is questionable, because it talks about moving multiple times, but the movement is granted by the spell.
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This comes up in the forums often enough it should be FAQd. Some people argue that any change in position is movement and thus is prevented despite the clear intent that it is 'movement modes' such as flying, walking, swimming, etc. that are what is intended to be prevented when you take a 5' step.
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Part of the problem with Bladed Dash is that it is not teleportation so it falls into a middle ground between the '5-foot step is referencing movement modes' camp and the 'any change in position prevents 5-foot steps' camp.
So, people may be falling into the first camp because teleportation but not allowing Bladed Dash because it seems like movement mode movement via a spell.
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I don't think it stops the spell's movement, actually. It's just that if the sequence had the 5-foot step after Bladed Dash, then that isn't allowed, because the spell seems like a movement mode. But if you 5-foot step then Bladed Dash, then that's fine because the spell is granting you movement you otherwise didn't have.
I've been thinking about thread a lot, and it's honestly not that easy to answer. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, either, and I think this genuinely needs a bit of clarification for Bladed Dash specifically.
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Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Not any mode of movement, but any other movement full stop. It specifically calls out any other movement, not any movement with a move action, or anything to say or imply that it is in any way limited.
As far as bladed dash, you could cast the spell but, IMO, it would fail after casting when it tried to make you move.
You can't 5ft off a cliff edge unless you can fly by my interpretation, unless you have a listed fall speed.
Having said all of that, Teleportation isn't movement. You disappear from this spot and appear at that spot. So D. Door works, but Bladed Dash, Flash Forward, and other non-teleportation spells don't.
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Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
Not any mode of movement, but any other movement full stop. It specifically calls out any other movement, not any movement with a move action, or anything to say or imply that it is in any way limited.
As far as bladed dash, you could cast the spell but, IMO, it would fail after casting when it tried to make you move.
You can't 5ft off a cliff edge unless you can fly by my interpretation, unless you have a listed fall speed.
Having said all of that, Teleportation isn't movement. You disappear from this spot and appear at that spot. So D. Door works, but Bladed Dash, Flash Forward, and other non-teleportation spells don't.
And this is why a FAQ is needed. This is yet another interpretation.
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Yep, from a strict RAW view I was completely in the "You move you can't 5' step camp", but now from RAW perspective I understand why this need a clarification...
The most clear argument is : If i go 5' Step at the begining of my turn then cast a spell can 5' step deny me the ability to cast Move related spell ? :)
If not why before and not after ? :D
Well, to be frank this doesn't change my games since I use Unchained Revised Action Economy in my games... :p
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Movement has meaning in Pathfinder. It means using your <run/fly/climb/swim> speed to change your position. Being moved by a spell, by an opponent, by a vehicle, by a mount, or by gravity, is not your 'movement' in Pathfinder.
There is no rule that clarifies that.
So you have the following interpretations with no way to know which is correct:
- Your movement is any movement that results in actions you take to change your position (Fly, Dimension Door, Bladed Dash) but not moved by mount, others, etc. - My interpretation.
- Your movement is just swim/fly/burrow/land speed and Dimension Door, Bladed Dash, mount and others etc are "not your movement".
- Your movement is "if you change positions" so you moved if you fell off a cliff, got moved by another bullrushing you or spelling you, moved by a mount or any of the options in the first in this list.
Pick one, that is your RAW. Wait until a FAQ clarifies which is how we should do this.
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Unlike many other terms, Movement is defined in Pathfinder.
The rules defining movement somehow fail to include spells, teleportation effects and involuntary changes in position while extensively covering a wide range of other movement options.
If it's not defined as a movement mode within the Pathfinder rules that define movement, it does not interact with nor is it limited by the 5' step rules.
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I am with _Ozy_ on this, only your personal actual movement dictates access to the 5FS (5 foot step).
Reasoning as follows if anyone cares...
you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance
Since 5FS availability is keyed to you not moving any distance in your current round it makes little sense for it to apply to things/people/events that move you in ways that do not use your available movement. Having it nullified by any movement sets up very easy ways to destroy access to 5FS and also bring up situations where the 5FS would have been invalid that round.
Examples:
You get bull rushed any distance... you can still full attack, move, etc... should still be 5FS ok.
Lets say you have 10ft of move. Casting "Bladed Dash" to "move" 30ft and resolve the spell attack well exceeds what you could have done... but.... you can still move before or after this spell.
Your Wizard friend casts Dimension Door and moves you and a few others to your opponent, the Wizard can no longer act as per the spell but now nobody else can 5FS?.. but can still act normally?
Reverse of previous, you all 5FS to the wizard who gets all of you out of combat range with Dimension Door... did all of you take an illegal step?
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We need more FAQ hits :)
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They only let me hit it once.
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I'm with Ozy and Snowlilly on this one.
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I'm with Ozy and Snowlilly on this one.
I'm willing to change my mind, but I haven't seen the clarifying rules yet or I don't agree they clarify.
"any other kind of movement" isn't clarifying enough for me to believe it specifies only fly/burrow/swim etc. Especially considering things like bladed dash scream movement to me. Teleport less so.
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Looking forward to the FAQ (please people who read this, FAQ button!)
I would be surprised (as would the other DM's I play with) if it came to pass that it truly is ANY movement stops the five foot step. That would introduce quite a lot of tracking overhead into the round as well as "new" (depending on where you are on this) shenanigans. Reposition just got a whole lot more fun...
Also if Bladed Dash, and similar spells that are not specifically teleportation, counts as movement it would be nice to have that as a ruling as well.
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I'd like if this FAQ could also answer what the limitations of Bladed Dash are. The spell says, "you immediately move up to 30 feet in a straight line any direction". I can't see why it would say "any direction", unless you were also able to ignore the terrain when making your move. For instance, can you bladed dash over a chasm? If you are underwater, can you still use the ability?
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Can you go straight up and make your attack before you fall back down?
What happens if there is an obstacle in the way? Do you ignore it? Are you stopped?
If it counts as movement, do abilities that rely on movement, such as the Scout archetype's Skirmisher class ability trigger off of it?
FAQ'd.
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Or, if you bladed dash over difficult terrain do you move only 15 feet instead of the 30 listed on the spell.
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I'm willing to change my mind, but I haven't seen the clarifying rules yet or I don't agree they clarify.
"any other kind of movement" isn't clarifying enough for me to believe it specifies only fly/burrow/swim etc. Especially considering things like bladed dash scream movement to me. Teleport less so.
If I'm on a ship, and the ship is moving, I am also moving. Does that count as movement against me? Because, by your definition, it seems to. I am moving each round. Ergo, if I am on a ship, I can't take a 5' step or any full round actions unless it's anchored or in port. But of course, the planet is spinning, and orbiting its sun, and the sun is moving in the galaxy, and...
I don't think anyone here would agree with this interpretation. Changing the reference frame from the planet to the ship doesn't mean I have "stopped moving". It just changes whether or not I appear to be moving.
So, from that, we have to figure out what is meant by "movement" and what is "being moved" in Pathfinder.
What's the difference between a ship and a vehicle? Aside from the "one is on water, one is on land" thing?
What's the difference between a vehicle and a mount?
The answer really comes down to whether or not I have to consume an action to direct/control the movement, or control my orientation/position as the thing I am on is moving.
A ship in calm seas is moving, but does not consume any of my actions, so I am being moved but have not used my movement. A ship in stormy seas might require me to make a skill check to avoid falling to the deck, unless I am seated, which means I am being moved, but am losing some actions. Riding a horse requires me to direct the horse at all times, which the game considers movement. If I am a passenger in a wagon which is moving me, I can still move around within the wagon. It might be considered difficult terrain but I am still moving myself within the wagon, which is movement.
And so on.
Edited to add: Teleport and DD are the sticky areas of course. But I do fall into the "moving you" and not "movement" camp. It's a spell that creates an effect, independent of whether or not you are moving. I can cast them if I am sitting down, lying down, standing still, or walking. The spells make sense in any of those contexts. And, the spell descriptions don't call it movement. The only explicit restriction on DD is that you can't take more actions after you cast the spell until your next turn.
Bladed Dash explicitly calls the movement out as movement, but it does also say that it is "bonus movement". So, an FAQ ruling is appropriate.
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Related Question Does the use of teleportation-like spells qualify for the preconditions necessary to use abilities that require "movement" (e.g. stealth).
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the ship is moving, I am also moving.
The answer really comes down to whether or not I have to consume an action to direct/control the movement, or control my orientation/position as the thing I am on is moving...
My position laid out here and other places hinges on you spending an action to move:
Blades dashHandle a mount
Swim/fly/climb/burrow
Teleport
You are not moving if you are moved involuntarily:
Reposition targeting you
Ship sailing
Cohort Pegasus flying
Someone dimension dooming you
My position laid out here and other places hinges on you spending an action to move:
Blades dash
Handle a mount
Swim/fly/climb/burrow
TeleportYou are not moving if you are moved involuntarily:
Reposition targeting you
Ship sailing
Cohort Pegasus flying
Someone dimension dooming you
Of the four items you list as "movement", three explicitly consume a move action on yourself, or another creature (or object, if you are driving a vehicle) via some published movement method. Teleport and DD are the outliers, being instantaneous "was here, now is there" transport.
When I compare that to your "being moved" list, though, you are using two terms that aren't really opposites of one another: "spends an action to move" and "moved involuntarily". If I am a cohort on a Pegasus, I think I am being moved voluntarily, I'm just not the one directing hte movement. Same if I allow a wizard to DD me (I choose to go with them). So your list is murky to me.
It seems to me you really want "spends an action to move" and "doesn't spend an action to move". Would that be more accurate?
I am not trying to be facetious here. I am trying to understand your definitions and logic so that we can form a common framework for discussion.
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So your list is murky to me.
It seems to me you really want "spends an action to move" and "doesn't spend an action to move". Would that be more accurate?
It's not murky to me.
No, I want something more like "spend an action to be somewhere else" and "got somewhere else because someone else spent an action".
So your list is murky to me.
It seems to me you really want "spends an action to move" and "doesn't spend an action to move". Would that be more accurate?
It's not murky to me.
No, I want something more like "spend an action to be somewhere else" and "got somewhere else because someone else spent an action".
This actually clears it up for me, so thank you.
A couple of questions. These aren't intended to be "gotcha" questions, but edge cases to help clarify where the lines are drawn.
- Magus with a familiar who casts Bladed Dash on the familiar. In that instance, the magus is spending the action, but the familiar is receiving the spell per the Share Spells ability. Do you consider the familiar to have moved?
- Plane Shift. Does this count as movement for the caster? They have spent an action, but their movement rate/distance is undefined because they have changed planes, not position in space.
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I genuinely don't comprehend why this is hard, murky, or confusing.
All the questions seem to be hinging on gotcha questions that ultimately are irrelevant.
If you teleport out of combat, it doesn't matter whether or not you can 5 ft step.
John's last two:
The familiar didn't move, but was moved.
Plane Shift makes 5 ft step irrelevant as you are out of combat.
I guess to me this is simple, consistent, and plain. But there are things I don't get also that others get intuitively, so it's the nature of being human. To others it clearly isn't. Ask your GM.
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I genuinely don't comprehend why this is hard, murky, or confusing.
All the questions seem to be hinging on gotcha questions that ultimately are irrelevant.
If you teleport out of combat, it doesn't matter whether or not you can 5 ft step.
John's last two:
The familiar didn't move, but was moved.
Plane Shift makes 5 ft step irrelevant as you are out of combat.
It's not irrelevant at all, and yes it does matter because the ability to make a 5' step can mean the difference between an AoO and no AoO. Many of the spells being discussed are on the short list for "emergency get out of combat" tactics, and that AoO can prevent the tactic from working.
The question that started this thread is, "can you do a 5' step and do X?":
- Can I take a 5' step and cast Plane Shift?
- Can I take a 5' step and cast Dimension Door?
- Can I take a 5' step and cast Teleport?
- Can I take a 5' step and cast Bladed Dash?
The answer to these questions all hinge on whether or not "X" counts as movement for the spell caster.
It is almost impossible to have a conversation with the forums constantly yo-yo'ing. Eesh.
Bringing this back to the simplest terms....
- You can take a 5 ft step and perform an action. (cast a spell)
- You can move X ft (land, fly, swim, burrow, climb) and perform an action. (cast a spell) But can no longer take a 5 ft step.
UNLESS of course the action or a feat.. or something else... states otherwise.
The question here really just boils down to:
- If a movement doesn't consume some of your listed (land, fly, swim, burrow, climb) speed, can you still take a 5 ft step?
Something to point out.
It has been repeatedly stated that using a wand is not the same as you casting the spell. If source of movement is in the thought process this makes it super muddy since the wand is basically casting whatever at your request.
Right. And the specific rules in the PRD are:
Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
And I see these distinct schools of thought emerging here.
1. Movement means “Tactical Movement”
The 5-foot step rules come from the Combat section of the RPD, and the movement rules in combat cover tactical movement, which is movement through squares, potentially hampered by terrain and blocked by objects.
Teleportation, Dimension Door, Plane Shift, and other instantaneous movement effects do not qualify as tactical movement because they are instantaneous transport from one square to another. They do not pass through squares between the starting and ending square, they ignore barriers and obstacles, are not hampered by terrain, and are not a standard form of movement (creatures do not have a “teleportation speed” like they do a burrow, climb, or swim speed). These spells do not prevent a 5’ step.
What about Bladed Dash?
Bladed Dash grants a bonus 30' movement that is in addition to your allowed actions for a round. The movement is tactical movement that moves through squares. There is no rule that says bonus movement invalidates the restriction on 5-foot steps.
If my magus has a familiar and I cast it on my familiar, they get the bonus movement. They have moved, and thus can’t take a 5’ step. I didn’t move, and can take a 5-step.
2. Movement means “Spent an action to control my position”
The 5-foot rules say movement, and they mean any movement whatsoever. Logically, all creatures are “moving” through space, so what it really means is “I am consciously acting to control my position”, hence, spending an action to do so.
Teleport, Dimension Door, and Plane Shift count as movement if I am the spell caster, because I cast the spell, which is a standard action. The people I take with me are along for the ride, did not spend an action, and thus are not moved. The spell caster cannot make a 5’ step. The passengers can.
What about Bladed Dash?
I cast the spell, so I can’t take a 5’ step.
If I cast it on my familiar, things get weird. My familiar may or may not be able to take a 5 foot step. On the one hand, my spell moved them, but on the other hand it’s a bonus movement where they move.
Logically, they shouldn’t be granted the 5’ step but it could be legal under the base assumption of "took an action to control my position" since I did the casting and the spell moved them, and it didn't cost them an action. There's potentially an exploit where both of us could be allowed a 5' step. I didn't try to control my position, and the familiar didn't spend an action to try and control their position.
3. Movement means “I moved or someone moved me”
Movement is movement regardless of how it occurred, though to keep it logical, we need a workable reference frame like “relative to the surface”. So, if I am on a moving ship, but I am standing still on the deck, I am not “moving”.
Teleport, Dimension Door, and Plane Shift count as movement for everyone, caster and passengers, because we all moved. None of us can take a 5’ step.
If I cast Bladed Dash on my familiar, they can’t take a 5’ step but I can.
However, weird artifacts pop up. For example, Bull Rush: If I am successfully pushed back by a Bull Rush, I have moved, and now I can’t take a 5’ step. We have to comb through the rules to find weird situations that cause me to be moved and deny me a 5’ step.
There is also a problem for fliers. They can be moved by high winds. And their movement has to be relative to something. Usually that is “the ground”, but there’s not always a ground.
This interpretation is problematic on a number of fronts.
Other notes and my thoughts
As a side note, there are other game mechanics that grant bonus actions (e.g., spending a Hero Point can grant you an additional move or standard action) that can give you extra movement. Bladed Dash is called out because that movement happens immediately and is specifically prescribed by the spell.
I think #1 is the easiest to deal with because it carves out a very clear and identifiable exception to movement rules, and doesn't have any screwy edge cases where things get weird. I prefer simplicity when given the choice.
I think #2 is a fine interpretation, but it does have potential edge cases and exploits. To me that means headaches for a GM. But, those edge cases are rare, so YMMV.
#3 is not viable.
Right. And the specific rules in the PRD are:
What about Bladed Dash?
Bladed Dash grants a bonus move action that is in addition to your allowed actions for a round. The move action is tactical movement that moves through squares. There is no rule that says additional move actions invalidate the restriction on 5-foot steps.
Nitpick.
It does not grant an extra move action. It grants a character the ability to move up to 30' in a straight line. A move action would allow them to draw a weapon, or stand up from prone, etc. as part of the spell. A move action would also allow them to move 40' (or 20') if their base speed was something different then 30'.
I agree that we should reject version #3 because of the nonsensical results that come from it. 5' step off the edge of a cliff, yet fail to fall. 5' step and be immune to bull rush, or reposition combat manuevers, or even hostile teleport actions such as from a crypt thing. 5' step and be immune to Awesome Blow.
Nitpick.
It does not grant an extra move action. It grants a character the ability to move up to 30' in a straight line.
Thank you. Fixed.
So, I take a 5ft step and start casting a summon.
An enemy now adjacent to me takes its aoo and bull rushes me (let's say it has greater bull rush, so we don't have a counter-aoo option that would complicate things further).
Under some interpretations, if it beats my CMD we have a rule paradox: I'm moving, and I took a 5ft step.
If my step becomes illegal, I didn't move close to the enemy and thus it could not bull rush me; so what? Have I become immune to bull rushing because I made my step?
When it comes to stuff like this, I usually try to figure out what rules-as-intended were, then work backwards in my reading of the RAW to support that.
In this case, personally I think it's obvious the rules for 5-foot-step and movement are designed to eliminate the 35-foot move speed concept. If your base speed is 30 feet, on a given turn you can move 30 feet and take a standard action, or move 60 feet as a double-move. You can't include a 5-foot-step to move 35 feet or 65 feet.
When teleportation comes into the picture, it sort of stops mattering. With teleportation, your range is (typically) much greater, making individual square-counting generally pointless.
As has been mentioned, it's pretty clear that the rules aren't intended to break physics. The planet is rotating so clearly you're moving, so you can't take a 5-foot-step ever. That's just... silly.
Once you've established the rules can't be intended to mean what they literally say, it just comes down to figuring out why they were written as they were.
What's the point in denying a caster a 5-foot-step followed by dimension door when you're allowing a 5-foot-step followed by every destructive spell in the book?
As has been mentioned, it's pretty clear that the rules aren't intended to break physics. The planet is rotating so clearly you're moving, so you can't take a 5-foot-step ever. That's just... silly.
Or you can take a 5 foot step but then you can't move with the earth's surface in the same round, so you're flung out into space?
I said a summon spell, but it could be anything provoking.
And of course there is no real paradox, what I meant is that if your interpretation of the rule is "no other movement allowed, of ANY KIND", you can get into a sticky situation where either your step was illegal, with other strange logical consequences, or you can't move by any other means (gravity, bull rushes, forced teleports, strong wind...) until your next round. It's silly IMO.
Teleporting is not movement, but this has come up several times in the forums, so I am hitting the FAQ button just so we can get it taken care of.