Geekdad have recently publicised the Envoy sheet from Paizocon, which can be seen in their album with Paizocon pictures.
And what worries me a lot is the comparison of that sheet to Keskodai, when both are level 1.
Let's compare them, shall we?
1. Keskodai has objectively superior in-combat healing - higher numbers (2d8 OR 1d8+4 for Keskodai vs 4 for Navasi), the possibility of healing all allies at the same time without expending more resources, action flexibility, not being restricted to only healing allies who were damaged within the last round, healing actual HP instead of SP.
2. Keskodai has spellcasting while Navasi has none.
3. Keskodai's Telekinesic Projectile cantrip is more damaging than Navasi's weapon, even after you account for the accuracy disparity.
4. Mystic has at-will unlimited out-of-combat healing, Envoy has none of that.
5. The Mystic can actually help out dying, unconscious, blinded, or deafened allies, while the Envoy is outright incapable of healing them.
6. The Envoy can only heal a given ally once per encounter, while the Mystic has no such restrictions.
As far as I can tell, the only advantage Envoy has in this comparison is two more skills per level (8+int vs 6+int when neither class is int-based) and the ability to add expertise to two skills, none of which compares in utility to spellcasting, bringing back memories of the dreaded Caster/Martial Disparity that plagued Pathfinder.
Another issue that worries me is the one Envoy talent that was showcased so far on Paizo Blog:
Clever Feint (EX) [sense-dependent]
As a standard action, you can fake out an enemy within 60 feet, making that enemy open to your attacks. Attempt a Bluff check with the same DC as a check to feint against that enemy (though this isn't a standard check to feint, so Improved Feint and Greater Feint don't apply). Even if you fail, that enemy is flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, the enemy is also flat-footed against your allies' attacks until the end of your next turn. You can't use clever feint against a creature that lacks an Intelligence score.At 6th level, you can spend 1 Resolve Point to treat a failed Bluff check for clever feint as if it were a success.
This is a standard action, which negates your own feats, effectively punishing you for taking them, and merely gives you +2 to hit on your next turn (or, if succeed on the skill check, your allies also get the bonus - though, because of how Trick Attack now works, it doesn't even enable Sneak Attacking), as Flat-Footed is not simply a flat -2 penalty to AC instead of negating dex bonus. That is absolutely underwhelming for a standard action. This is especially worrisome as this was the sole showcased talent and thus, by nature, cherry-picked, implying this is one of the better ones, implying the other ones are at least as depressing.
All in all, everything shown so far offers serious concerns about the Envoy's ability to be at all meaningful and useful in a party compared to a Mystic.
Geekdad have recently publicised the Envoy sheet from Paizocon, which can be seen in their album with Paizocon pictures.
Link?
Geekdad have recently publicised the Envoy sheet from Paizocon, which can be seen in their album with Paizocon pictures.Link?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836690@N07/34873396811/in/album-7215768448 4318605/
Here it is, though it's in their public Paizocon album, so it should be decently easily findable even without the link.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836690@N07/34873396811/in/album-7215768448 4318605/
Here it is, though it's in their public Paizocon album, so it should be decently easily findable even without the link.
I googled "Geekdad Envoy" and "Geekdad Navasi" and even went to their website but found nothing.
I googled "Geekdad Envoy" and "Geekdad Navasi" and even went to their website but found nothing.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836690@N07/34873396811/in/album-7215768448 4318605/
Here it is, though it's in their public Paizocon album, so it should be decently easily findable even without the link.
It was as part of this article:
https://geekdad.com/2017/06/paizocon-2017-report/They posted the full photojournal here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836690@N07/albums/72157684484318605
We don't really know what magic is going to be capable of in Starfinder. Being able to make an enemy flat-footed against everyone's attacks with no save sounds pretty powerful, will magic be able to do something like that as reliably, or as often?
Like the Bard, it sounds like the Envoy is a team player, who opens up opportunities for everyone else. It's a bit tough to judge until we see her in action with her party.
We don't really know what magic is going to be capable of in Starfinder. Being able to make an enemy flat-footed against everyone's attacks with no save sounds pretty powerful, will magic be able to do something like that as reliably, or as often?
Like the Bard, it sounds like the Envoy is a team player, who opens up opportunities for everyone else. It's a bit tough to judge until we see her in action with her party.
As said in the OP, Flat-Footed is simply a -2 penalty in Starfinder, which doesn't even allow you to apply anything like Sneak Attacks. It's effectively just spending a standard action to give your allies +2 to attack, IF you succeed on the bluff check to feint, or only to yourself if you fail on the bluff check.
We don't really know what magic is going to be capable of in Starfinder. Being able to make an enemy flat-footed against everyone's attacks with no save sounds pretty powerful, will magic be able to do something like that as reliably, or as often?
Like the Bard, it sounds like the Envoy is a team player, who opens up opportunities for everyone else. It's a bit tough to judge until we see her in action with her party.
It's also the case that clever feint is one piece of a few of the more powerful combo builds I've seen for envoy that makes it more useful in tandem with the rest of those builds than it is alone. In that sense, it might not have been as juicy of a solo teaser as something like don't quit, which is less of a combo ability but is admittedly defensive and offensive powers are usually more fun for previews.
EDIT: I seem to have barely ninjaed Brew Bird on a similar theme.
As said in the OP, Flat-Footed is simply a -2 penalty in Starfinder, which doesn't even allow you to apply anything like Sneak Attacks. It's effectively just spending a standard action to give your allies +2 to attack, IF you succeed on the bluff check to feint, or only to yourself if you fail on the bluff check.We don't really know what magic is going to be capable of in Starfinder. Being able to make an enemy flat-footed against everyone's attacks with no save sounds pretty powerful, will magic be able to do something like that as reliably, or as often?
Like the Bard, it sounds like the Envoy is a team player, who opens up opportunities for everyone else. It's a bit tough to judge until we see her in action with her party.
We don't know what other abilities activate against flat-footed enemies. I would be surprised if there aren't feats or abilities that grant additional effects against flat-footed opponents.
Frankly, even with the information we have, we have no good reason to expect this will hold true at later levels. Envoys might be getting very powerful abilities later, whereas Mystics would peter out and become useless past level 5.
We don't really know what magic is going to be capable of in Starfinder. Being able to make an enemy flat-footed against everyone's attacks with no save sounds pretty powerful, will magic be able to do something like that as reliably, or as often?
Like the Bard, it sounds like the Envoy is a team player, who opens up opportunities for everyone else. It's a bit tough to judge until we see her in action with her party.
It's also the case that clever feint is one piece of a few of the more powerful combo builds I've seen for envoy that makes it more useful in tandem with the rest of those builds than it is alone. In that sense, it might not have been as juicy of a solo teaser as something like don't quit, which is less of a combo ability but is admittedly defensive and offensive powers are usually more fun for previews.
EDIT: I seem to have barely ninjaed Brew Bird on a similar theme.
Then that just moves the big problem with martial classes from Feat chains to Talent chains. The talent, by itself and without building further around it, doesn't seem worth using over virtually any other standard action in any reasonably-sized party of PC's.
This, combined with Envoy's objective inferiority to Mystic at level 1, makes me feel very pessimistic about the class.
Frankly, even with the information we have, we have no good reason to expect this will hold true at later levels. Envoys might be getting very powerful abilities later, whereas Mystics would peter out and become useless past level 5.
While that is possible per se, I don't see that as likely, given that the trope of "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards" persists across all 3.x-derived systems.
I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.
I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.
Even that would mean that then others have to build specifically around you for you to be useful in the first place with the Clever Feint thing instead of you having simply wasted an action.
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I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.Even that would mean that then others have to build specifically around you for you to be useful in the first place with the Clever Feint thing instead of you having simply wasted an action.
Or you could, you know, not use that ability? The existence of abilities that are largely there to combo with other characters doing things doesn't mean you're required to use them.
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I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.
If it's enabling specific special options for other classes to function (because a standard action for the chance to apply a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round is really not worth it on its own) that's a really delicate balance.
You'd need multiple people to coordinate picking abilities that hook into each other on their characters, and then you'd need the Envoy giving up their standard action and another PC triggering something off of it to be at minimum more effective than if they both just did something effective with their standard action, but not turn into greater than 2x force multiplier if that benefits the entire party. And you'd still have a problem where you require people to coordinate on specific ability choices in character generation (where they might not even be talking to each other) for this to work, and have created a combat paradigm where you do your special team attacks in most encounters where they'll work at all. Even if it's effective enough to be worth doing and doesn't break combat, it's still poison to the game in at least one way on basic principles.
For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Or you could, you know, not use that ability? The existence of abilities that are largely there to combo with other characters doing things doesn't mean you're required to use them.I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.Even that would mean that then others have to build specifically around you for you to be useful in the first place with the Clever Feint thing instead of you having simply wasted an action.
Besides what Aratrok said on the matter, there's another issue - versatility. Martial characters already struggle a lot with versatility.
Imagine applying to a campaign with a relatively low level start (which is common) so that you only have one Envoy Improvisation available, with Clever Feint as your only chosen Envoy Improvisation, and it ends up other players haven't built to accommodate for that. Suddenly, you find your class features useless.
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For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
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Even looking at this ability with what we know now:
From level one any character can make two attacks at -4/-4.
Flat-footed likely is a flat penalty to AC.
By using this ability every ally is more likely to hit with their full attack action.
You have roughly doubled the party's damage output for one round.
Now, I agree that feats should apply their bonuses to the check, in if only because it doesn't make sense to throw exceptions around, but even if not, it's a nifty ability and don't think its underwhelming in the slightest.
For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
See through the entirety of the OP. I wasn't concerned from Clever Feint alone. What raised my concerns was Envoy's strict inferiority to Mystic at level 1, in a game which will very likely have the same Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards trope, as all other 3.x-derived games follow that trope.
For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
So you're saying that abilities that provide cross-class synergies are bad if the other players don't build to take advantage of them? Umm, yeah. That's kind of how synergies work. If you're going to play a character who is made to synergize with other characters you're going to need another player who's interested in making that work and makes the appropriate choices when building their character. It takes two to tango, and that's a feature not a bug. If for some reason you aren't in a position to make that happen, maybe make different choices when building your character.
So you're saying that abilities that provide cross-class synergies are bad if the other players don't build to take advantage of them? Umm, yeah. That's kind of how synergies work. If you're going to play a character who is made to synergize with other characters you're going to need another player who's interested in making that work and makes the appropriate choices when building their character. It takes two to tango, and that's a feature not a bug. If for some reason you aren't in a position to make that happen, maybe make different choices when building your character.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
See Aratrok's post on why this is a toxic mechanic.
See through the entirety of the OP. I wasn't concerned from Clever Feint alone. What raised my concerns was Envoy's strict inferiority to Mystic at level 1, in a game which will very likely have the same Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards trope, as all other 3.x-derived games follow that trope.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
Unless you've somehow got access to the rulebook two months early you're drawing this conclusion by comparing two particular character builds. Maybe, just maybe, there are options that you have not seen yet. Personally, I suspect that the developers of Starfinder are WELL AWARE of linear fighters and quadratic wizards, and have gone to great lengths to fix that problem in their new game. Jumping to conclusions before you've even read the full class is just silly.
Unless you've somehow got access to the rulebook two months early you're drawing this conclusion by comparing two particular character builds. Maybe, just maybe, there are options that you have not seen yet. Personally, I suspect that the developers of Starfinder are WELL AWARE of linear fighters and quadratic wizards, and have gone to great lengths to fix that problem in their new game. Jumping to conclusions before you've even read the full class is just silly.See through the entirety of the OP. I wasn't concerned from Clever Feint alone. What raised my concerns was Envoy's strict inferiority to Mystic at level 1, in a game which will very likely have the same Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards trope, as all other 3.x-derived games follow that trope.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
Builds aren't really a thing at level 1, and my comparison did not make any references to builds whatsoever. I straight up compared their class features.
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I think what Mark meant is that it combos well with the abilities of other classes. The Envoy is, like the Bard, a power multiplier. By themselves, the "team player" abilities are going to feel underwhelming.
A little bit of both, but mostly just that the envoy grows quadratically on her own, at least early game when she has few improvisations, rather than allies needing to make a specific build to benefit. Since they tend to quietly buff others, team player abilities are always incredibly hard to measure in play except when you add in the team player character after playing for a while without one and see what happens (it's easier to measure by math though, see spoiler below). Our playtest group actually did switch out one of the characters for an envoy at around 8th level, and the envoy's improvements to the group were more noticeable than I expected given that. He was able to team up with the solarian for some serious powerhouse turns. A fully operational battle station envoy is likely to be able to hand out buffs and debuffs each round at will as a standard, a move, and maybe a reaction if the moment is right for one, possibly even firing a shot as well depending on what she's up to. It's a lot to calculate, but the benefits to your team are significant. Consider a build that effectively gives your team +4 to hit against a given foe and also takes a shot with your weapon. You've just canceled your allies' penalty for iterative attacks!
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I played a Technomancer in one of Owen K.C. Stephens' games at PaizoCon and, while I did not get to play the Envoy, I saw the Envoy in action at 5th level. I was actually quite impressed with the Envoy in play at the table than what I was expecting it to be like. It ended up being a more active bard. I don't like bards, but I felt like playing an Envoy after watching ours in that game.
In particular, our Envoy had an ability called, "Get'im", I believe (or maybe "Get Him"?). Anyway, it worked by allowing the Envoy to point at an enemy (had to have line of sight) and tell the other PCs, "Get'im!", and the Envoy could then attack that enemy with the bonus this ability granted and then when our turns came over the course of the next round we could all attack that enemy with that same bonus (and I believe it stacked with our already existing bonuses, if I'm not mistaken).
It seems like a really fun class and appeared well-balanced at 5th level with the rest of the party. In contrast, our mystic seemed to do a little less, but I think that was just the player's play style and the selection of spells his pre-gen Keskodai was saddled with. Healing wasn't all that necessary from him during that game thanks to the way the system works with resolve and other abilities. But, when it was desperately needed at one point near the end of the game, our mystic really whammied us back to health in a single casting.
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See Aratrok's post on why this is a toxic mechanic.
I've read Aratrok's post, and I'll just posit that perhaps the designers feel that some players enjoy these sort of mechanics. Presumably there are other ability that will make both of you happier. Not all abilities are for all players. If you don't want to play that sort of character nobody is forcing you to, but that doesn't make the mechanic itself toxic.
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So you're saying that abilities that provide cross-class synergies are bad if the other players don't build to take advantage of them? Umm, yeah. That's kind of how synergies work. If you're going to play a character who is made to synergize with other characters you're going to need another player who's interested in making that work and makes the appropriate choices when building their character. It takes two to tango, and that's a feature not a bug. If for some reason you aren't in a position to make that happen, maybe make different choices when building your character.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
It would be best if your class feature could stand on it's own, and also provide synergies for the party.
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I played a Technomancer in one of Owen K.C. Stephens' games at PaizoCon and, while I did not get to play the Envoy, I saw the Envoy in action at 5th level. I was actually quite impressed with the Envoy in play at the table than what I was expecting it to be like. It ended up being a more active bard. I don't like bards, but I felt like playing an Envoy after watching ours in that game.
In particular, our Envoy had an ability called, "Get'im", I believe (or maybe "Get Him"?). Anyway, it worked by allowing the Envoy to point at an enemy (had to have line of sight) and tell the other PCs, "Get'im!", and the Envoy could then attack that enemy with the bonus this ability granted and then when our turns came over the course of the next round we could all attack that enemy with that same bonus (and I believe it stacked with our already existing bonuses, if I'm not mistaken).
It seems like a really fun class and appeared well-balanced at 5th level with the rest of the party. In contrast, our mystic seemed to do a little less, but I think that was just the player's play style and the selection of spells his pre-gen Keskodai was saddled with. Healing wasn't all that necessary from him during that game thanks to the way the system works with resolve and other abilities. But, when it was desperately needed at one point near the end of the game, our mystic really whammied us back to health in a single casting.
In that case, perhaps, my reasoning failed me and Paizo counter-intuitively picked a relatively bland improvisation to showcase instead of something actually interesting and good, such as the one you described.
Builds aren't really a thing at level 1, and my comparison did not make any references to builds whatsoever. I straight up compared their class features.Yet, you completely skipped Navasi's Inspiration class feature?
I did not? Inspiring Boost is Navasi's healing class feature, which was the core of my comparison.
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Builds aren't really a thing at level 1, and my comparison did not make any references to builds whatsoever. I straight up compared their class features.Unless you've somehow got access to the rulebook two months early you're drawing this conclusion by comparing two particular character builds. Maybe, just maybe, there are options that you have not seen yet. Personally, I suspect that the developers of Starfinder are WELL AWARE of linear fighters and quadratic wizards, and have gone to great lengths to fix that problem in their new game. Jumping to conclusions before you've even read the full class is just silly.See through the entirety of the OP. I wasn't concerned from Clever Feint alone. What raised my concerns was Envoy's strict inferiority to Mystic at level 1, in a game which will very likely have the same Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards trope, as all other 3.x-derived games follow that trope.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
Your post actually did involve some detailed comparison of those two specific builds, though, without the full class descriptions. A get 'em build like the one Ashanderai saw (and get 'em is one I would likely take instead of clever feint if I wasn't going to combo, I just didn't want to spoil lots of new improvs if people hadn't seen them) wouldn't even see you comparing healing since it doesn't have the one stamina healing improv that Navasi chose to take (and I'm not sure most envoys would take it at 1st level since it scales with level pretty well), which is involves in at least half of the 6 comparisons. There's also ways to help with conditions that aren't in that particular build, which is another of them.
Your post actually did involve some detailed comparison of those two specific builds, though, without the full class descriptions. A get 'em build like the one Ashanderai saw (and get 'em is one I would likely take instead of clever feint if I wasn't going to combo, I just didn't want to...Builds aren't really a thing at level 1, and my comparison did not make any references to builds whatsoever. I straight up compared their class features.Unless you've somehow got access to the rulebook two months early you're drawing this conclusion by comparing two particular character builds. Maybe, just maybe, there are options that you have not seen yet. Personally, I suspect that the developers of Starfinder are WELL AWARE of linear fighters and quadratic wizards, and have gone to great lengths to fix that problem in their new game. Jumping to conclusions before you've even read the full class is just silly.See through the entirety of the OP. I wasn't concerned from Clever Feint alone. What raised my concerns was Envoy's strict inferiority to Mystic at level 1, in a game which will very likely have the same Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards trope, as all other 3.x-derived games follow that trope.For some builds, sure. But what's wrong with a class that might work best when the party is built to cooperate?
As Mark also said, there are other abilities that pack much more punch by themselves. We've seen one option from an entire class. I think it's a little early to be crying "underpowered" when no one even has the book yet.
Yes, this.
I mean I get it, there is limited information out there so it's super tempting to jump on whatever you get and make it THE THING to talk about, but maybe lets keep in mind that the game is hundreds of pages long, and looking at any bit of it out of context and then drawing conclusions is perhaps not terribly helpful.
Huh. Builds being that varied at level 1 is somewhat surprising.
In that case, perhaps, my reasoning failed me and Paizo counter-intuitively picked a relatively bland improvisation to showcase instead of something actually interesting and good, such as the one you described.I played a Technomancer in one of Owen K.C. Stephens' games at PaizoCon and, while I did not get to play the Envoy, I saw the Envoy in action at 5th level. I was actually quite impressed with the Envoy in play at the table than what I was expecting it to be like. It ended up being a more active bard. I don't like bards, but I felt like playing an Envoy after watching ours in that game.
In particular, our Envoy had an ability called, "Get'im", I believe (or maybe "Get Him"?). Anyway, it worked by allowing the Envoy to point at an enemy (had to have line of sight) and tell the other PCs, "Get'im!", and the Envoy could then attack that enemy with the bonus this ability granted and then when our turns came over the course of the next round we could all attack that enemy with that same bonus (and I believe it stacked with our already existing bonuses, if I'm not mistaken).
It seems like a really fun class and appeared well-balanced at 5th level with the rest of the party. In contrast, our mystic seemed to do a little less, but I think that was just the player's play style and the selection of spells his pre-gen Keskodai was saddled with. Healing wasn't all that necessary from him during that game thanks to the way the system works with resolve and other abilities. But, when it was desperately needed at one point near the end of the game, our mystic really whammied us back to health in a single casting.
I wouldn't read too much into the individual choices on the blogs in that regard, or at least, I personally when building a character would pick one of various other extremely tempting 1st-level improvisations over clever feint if I wasn't building to combo with other things later.
I wouldn't read too much into the individual choices on the blogs in that regard, or at least, I personally when building a character would pick one of various other extremely tempting 1st-level improvisations over clever feint if I wasn't building to combo with other things later.In that case, perhaps, my reasoning failed me and Paizo counter-intuitively picked a relatively bland improvisation to showcase instead of something actually interesting and good, such as the one you described.I played a Technomancer in one of Owen K.C. Stephens' games at PaizoCon and, while I did not get to play the Envoy, I saw the Envoy in action at 5th level. I was actually quite impressed with the Envoy in play at the table than what I was expecting it to be like. It ended up being a more active bard. I don't like bards, but I felt like playing an Envoy after watching ours in that game.
In particular, our Envoy had an ability called, "Get'im", I believe (or maybe "Get Him"?). Anyway, it worked by allowing the Envoy to point at an enemy (had to have line of sight) and tell the other PCs, "Get'im!", and the Envoy could then attack that enemy with the bonus this ability granted and then when our turns came over the course of the next round we could all attack that enemy with that same bonus (and I believe it stacked with our already existing bonuses, if I'm not mistaken).
It seems like a really fun class and appeared well-balanced at 5th level with the rest of the party. In contrast, our mystic seemed to do a little less, but I think that was just the player's play style and the selection of spells his pre-gen Keskodai was saddled with. Healing wasn't all that necessary from him during that game thanks to the way the system works with resolve and other abilities. But, when it was desperately needed at one point near the end of the game, our mystic really whammied us back to health in a single casting.
Fair point. A large deal of my reasoning hinged on "blog posts are advertisement material; as such, it's in their interest to present the strong sides of the game; as such, it's in their interest to cherry-pick the most exciting abilities". Clever Feint, by itself, isn't exciting at all, clashing very jarringly with this reasoning.
Fair point. A large deal of my reasoning hinged on "blog posts are advertisement material; as such, it's in their interest to present the strong sides of the game; as such, it's in their interest to cherry-pick the most exciting abilities". Clever Feint, by itself, isn't exciting at all, clashing very jarringly with this reasoning.
In particular as well, clever feint seems worse than it is if you're in the Pathfinder paradigm because in Pathfinder, once you've given up that standard action, there's not much else coming out of that turn, so a standard action costs almost as much as a full-round action if you don't need to move, in a sense. But in Starfinder as an envoy, as long as clever feint isn't your first improvisation, you probably picked an improvisation that you can use as a move action first, so it's really only half your turn if you did (and that's just looking at generic strategy of "pick something that's a move action to go with your standard action" without getting into abilities that specifically work well with clever feint). In Starfinder, you wind up with the flipside of the Pathfinder example above: once you've committed to a move action buff, if you want to double-buff on a turn, it doesn't matter if the second buff is a move action or a standard action because either way it takes your standard.
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I'm hoping it's just "pregens are bad, especially at first level" syndrome. Nevasi is just twiddling her thumbs, waiting for combat to be over so she can get back to rolling skill checks. Inspiring Boost seems almost artfully bad at this level- standard action healing that can't be used out of combat, can only be used immediately following damage, is too small to meaningfully mitigate damage, can't do anything for an ally that has been knocked unconscious, and is only worth using because her damage output is so low. I'm guessing it scales in healing and/or eventually becomes a reaction, and the pregen is taking it now in service of the higher level builds.
EDIT: ninja'd by Mark pointing out that using standard action isn't the end of your effective turn.
Still, her move action can be used to try to give herself +2 on one attack against one target next turn, and with 1d4 damage as her damage, that's not very exciting.
EDIT: ninja'd by Mark pointing out that using standard action isn't the end of your effective turn.
Still, her move action can be used to try to give herself +2 on one attack against one target next turn, and with 1d4 damage as her damage, that's not very exciting.
Yeah, that's a move action that even Pathfinder had though, from a feat (admittedly, much improved from its role in Pathfinder with the way single attacks and full attacks work now, though). The move action envoy improvisations (like get 'em, one of my favorites) tend to be more exciting than that. I'll grant you, Navasi didn't take get 'em; as I said above, I'm not sure how many envoys will start with that ability at 1st, though for a pregen demo delve, it does serve a valuable purpose in introducing stamina healing. I suppose if you're focusing on that improv, you can also build an envoy that can use it for 6 instead of 4 at 1st level (and it does scale by level), a 50% increase and enough to recover some 1st-level characters' stamina completely.
Yeah, that's a move action that even Pathfinder had though, from a feat (admittedly, much improved from its role in Pathfinder with the way single attacks and full attacks work now, though). The move action envoy improvisations (like get 'em, one of my favorites) tend to be more exciting than that. I'll grant you, Navasi didn't take get 'em; as I said above, I'm not sure how many envoys will start with that ability at 1st, though for a pregen demo delve, it does serve a valuable purpose in introducing stamina healing. I suppose if you're focusing on that improv, you can also build an envoy that can use it for 6 instead of 4 at 1st level (and it does scale by level), a 50% increase and enough to recover some 1st-level characters' stamina completely.EDIT: ninja'd by Mark pointing out that using standard action isn't the end of your effective turn.
Still, her move action can be used to try to give herself +2 on one attack against one target next turn, and with 1d4 damage as her damage, that's not very exciting.
Thanks- looking forward to checking out the full version when it comes out!
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What is this Clever Feint combo? I'm missing something. :P
Clever feint leads to clever attack which stacks with Get 'Em which also stacks with weapon focus.
By level 9, that is an effective +6 to-hit for your attacks and a +4 to-hit for the party.
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You really like to have to play a tactical support character - and have to be OK with dealing basically no damage in combat to like the Envoy. Even with all that, you're still not great(er) outside of combat.
Eh. By around 6th, you can do Get Em as a standard action as part of an attack. Grab an Unwieldy weapon and go to town. You're definitely primarily a support character in combat but 'no damage' is a pretty big exaggeration if you want to deal some.
The best at any skills is a Lashunta (not a specific class) since Lashunta have an untyped +2 to two skills of your choice. Most classes grant insight bonuses to skills (which don't stack with skill focus/skill synergy).
Lashunta are awesome in two skills, it's quite true. But that stacks with Envoy's bonus, and indeed they make excellent Envoys. So...I'm really not clear where you're going with this.
The Operative is arguably better outside combat than the Envoy, since they get the same number of skill points (plus an extra one based on their skill specialty - with free skill focus).
They actually get two extra with Skill Focus. Of course, with +1d6, the Envoy averages +3.5 on their two starting 'specialty' skills rather than +3, and by 5th, they're averaging +4.5 and the Operative's still got a +3 on those two.
Operatives are amazing skill generalists, getting a scaling bonus to all of them. But that bonus maxes out at +6, which is quite good but not actually higher than a lot of other Classes bonuses to skills they focus on (Mechanics get the same bonus on Engineering and Computers, for example).
Envoys, on the other hand, are amazing skill specialists and are thus eventually adding +8.5 on average (and potentially +12) on as many as nine skills. Nobody gets better skill bonuses than an Envoy in the skills they focus on. Nobody.
The envoy skill powers are (IMHO) not as good as the operative skill powers.
What skill powers do Operatives get? I mean, they get Exploits but those are more equivalent to Improvisations than the Envoy's skill stuff.
TL;DR: Operative > Envoy, until we see a splatbook. Best reason to play an Envoy (instead of Operative) is being combat support.
Operative is better at physical skills (which aren't on the Envoy's list of specialty skills). They are better at skills the Envoy doesn't focus on. They are worse at skills the Envoy chooses as their area of specialty. Especially social skills.
I believe someone did some math, and an envoy focusing on supporting others makes for a net gain in damage compared to someone else trying to directly deal damage.
I'm pretty happy with that as if it isn't a net gain, then supporting is just a waste of actions.