Does Dragon Style or Dragon Ferocity make an Unarmed Strike count as a; "two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon"?
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The idea is that a monk's unarmed strike while using Dragon Ferocity counts as "a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls" because it is a natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 your Strength modifier.
I don't believe unarmed strike counts as primary however, so I would not give Power Attack the -1/+3.
nope but monks treat their unarmed strikes as natural weapons for certain effects which me and quite a few other people are convinced that does not qualify power attack to be -1/+3 however there are quite a few other people that say it does which is why i set up the question and marked for faqDoes Dragon Style or Dragon Ferocity make an Unarmed Strike count as a; "two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon"?
I understand the argument. I've read through the threads about it. They are wrong, unless they can prove it.
But those people who think Dragon Style suddenly makes your Unarmed Strike a Primary Natural Weapon can never actually prove it in the rules.
Not once does Dragon Style or any of the feat chain make an Unarmed Strike a Primary Natural Weapon.
So basically until they can point to a rule that makes a Unarmed Strike a "two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon" they are wrong.
I had previously assumed the 1:3 rate based on the idea that
A) Dragon Ferocity gives 1.5 Str to unarmed strikes
B) A monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for effects that augment natural weapons
C) Power Attack augments a natural weapon that adds 1.5 str to damage.
Then it was pointed out that power attack only works on primary natural weapons. The following implies a 1:3 rate, but I'm not so sure it is solid enough to be correct.
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Applying some (iffy) logic, a Monk's unarmed strike s treated as a natural weapon. A natural weapon is either a primary attack (full Bab and strength) or secondary attack (-5 penalty to attack, half strength to damage). A monk applies full strength to all his unarmed strikes. Therefore, a monk's unarmed strike should be considered primary as it never fits the requirements for secondary natural attack.
That said, that argument feels messy at best as it pulls information out of context for support and relies on implicit assumptions rather than explicit rules. Specifically the assumption that the unarmed strike's exception to being always considered a manufactured weapon must abide by the rules for natural attacks being primary or secondary (but not necessarily the other rules). So, I will admit my first assumption was probably wrong, though I feel an FAQ to clear up the rules would be useful. FAQ'd
Not FAQ'd - there is precious little support and a lot of wishful thinking for the -1/+3. It just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
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Not FAQ'd - there is precious little support and a lot of wishful thinking for the -1/+3. It just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
Of course it doesn't. That doesn't mean that there isn't a vocal minority that will argue the same arguments in every thread that comes up. I hit the FAQ just because I for one am sick of the same argument every month or two.
how do these interact some say they get-1/+2 from power attack while others say they get-1/+3 from power attack even though a monks fist is neither a primary nor two handed weapon we need an answer to this so we can just stop arguing about it already
You know, we could do this thing called "not reply" to a question with an obvious answer, especially when it's quite clear that the thread is made just to bait people to argue.
By this logic, we need a FAQ along the lines of "If my character is dead, can he still take actions?" since we have goofballs who keep trying to say they can still do stuff when they're dead.
A monks unarmed strike is not considered a natural attack for the purposes of Power Attack.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Power Attack enhances damage, not the weapon.
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Not FAQ'd - there is precious little support and a lot of wishful thinking for the -1/+3. It just doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.Of course it doesn't. That doesn't mean that there isn't a vocal minority that will argue the same arguments in every thread that comes up. I hit the FAQ just because I for one am sick of the same argument every month or two.
This is pretty much my reason for FAQing it, it's come up enough that I think it is firmly in "frequently asked" and while I think the answer is obvious, clearly not everybody does.
A monk's unarmed strike can benefit from things that affect natural weapons, but that doesn't make it a natural attack. I don't see how Dragon Style would make PA give -1/+3 to unarmed strikes.
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Applying some (iffy) logic, a Monk's unarmed strike s treated as a natural weapon. A natural weapon is either a primary attack (full Bab and strength) or secondary attack (-5 penalty to attack, half strength to damage). A monk applies full strength to all his unarmed strikes. Therefore, a monk's unarmed strike should be considered primary as it never fits the requirements for secondary natural attack.
This argument is pretty simple to disprove because the first sentence simply isn't true (no matter how many times Snowlilly repeats it). A Monk's US are treated as a natural weapon "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve (...) natural weapons", not for anything else. General rules aren't effects, thus the classification in primary or secondary is never made.
What about Feral Combat Training + Dragon Style?
As you now have a (explicitly) primary natural attack that adds 1.5 x Strength to damage.
What about Feral Combat Training + Dragon Style?
As you now have a (explicitly) primary natural attack that adds 1.5 x Strength to damage.
So if you had Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity your first attack in the round wouldn't get the extra damage from Power Attack?
But your other attacks would?
Would depend on whether or not the 1.5x str clause is inclusive of higher ability score multipliers
Does Dragon Style or Dragon Ferocity make an Unarmed Strike count as a; "two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon"?
Monk IUS counts as a natural weapon.
Note: the raw gives no preference for manufactured or natural, both are equally valid. All effects that improve either category use whichever category is most beneficial. (Technically both, but bonuses from the same source do not stack.)A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
The rules do not allow for an uncategorized or untyped natural weapon.
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
Monk IUS is never -5 to-hit, 1/2 STR bonus, -1/+1 on Power Attack (never secondary)
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls
This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
Monk IUS is normally full STR bonus, -1/+2 on power attack (Primary)
Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls
Mon IUS + Dragon Ferocity is x1.5 STR bonus, -1/+3 on power attack (Primary attack dealing x1.5 STR)
While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the other attacks.
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with ... a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls
Would depend on whether or not the 1.5x str clause is inclusive of higher ability score multipliers
Pathfinder has been ruled as inclusive in all other instances where similar questions have been ruled on.
But those people who think Dragon Style suddenly makes your Unarmed Strike a Primary Natural Weapon can never actually prove it in the rules.
Quoted RAW is provided proving all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary without exception. The rules do not allow for "untyped" natural weapons.
RAW definitions demonstrating primary and secondary natural weapons have also been provided.
What has not been provided is RAW granting monk IUS a specific exception to the general rule requiring all natural weapons to be either primary or secondary.
General rules aren't effects, thus the classification in primary or secondary is never made.
Power Attack is not a general rule, it is an effect whose affect is dependent on weapon classification and applied strength modifier.
Quoted RAW is provided proving all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary without exception. The rules do not allow for "untyped" natural weapons.RAW definitions demonstrating primary and secondary natural weapons have also been provided.
What has not been provided is RAW granting monk IUS a specific exception to the general rule requiring all natural weapons to be either primary or secondary.
An Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon even for a Monk. Thus it never is classified as Primary or Secondary.
It's only treated as one for "spells and effects that enhance and improve".
You are doing mental gymnastics to reach what you are saying.
Quoted RAW is provided proving all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary without exception. The rules do not allow for "untyped" natural weapons.RAW definitions demonstrating primary and secondary natural weapons have also been provided.
What has not been provided is RAW granting monk IUS a specific exception to the general rule requiring all natural weapons to be either primary or secondary.
An Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon even for a Monk. Thus it never is classified as Primary or Secondary.
It's only treated as one for "spells and effects that enhance and improve".
You are doing mental gymnastics to reach what you are saying.
All RAW has been quoted backing each step of the process.
If you have RAW that states something to the contrary, provide it.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies IUS. For purposes of resolving Power Attack, monk IUS is treated as a natural weapon if it provides an improvement (it does).
All natural weapons are either primary or secondary.
I realize there are enough steps in the process that some people may be unable to follow the entire process without loosing track, but I have broken it down for everyone is a simple, easy-to-read format above. Each step in the process includes the relevant RAW.
Nobody to date has manages to provide any RAW contradicting the RAW I have provided. It's all been opinion stated without any evidence.
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A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.The rules do not allow for an uncategorized or untyped natural weapon.
The fact that the rules do not allow for an untyped natural attack is irrelevant, because a monk unarmed strike is not a natural weapon, it only treated as one for for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons.
It doesn't follow any rules for natural attacks, because it isn't a natural weapon. The only thing that rule does is allow a monk IUS to be affected by Strong Jaw or Eldritch Claws or the like.
Quoted RAW is provided proving all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary without exception. The rules do not allow for "untyped" natural weapons.RAW definitions demonstrating primary and secondary natural weapons have also been provided.
What has not been provided is RAW granting monk IUS a specific exception to the general rule requiring all natural weapons to be either primary or secondary.
An Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon even for a Monk. Thus it never is classified as Primary or Secondary.
It's only treated as one for "spells and effects that enhance and improve".
You are doing mental gymnastics to reach what you are saying.
All RAW has been quoted backing each step of the process.
If you have RAW that states something to the contrary, provide it.
"Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat)."
An Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Attack.
Being a Monk does not change that.
It doesn't follow any rules for natural attacks, because it isn't a natural weapon. The only thing that rule does is allow a monk IUS to be affected by Strong Jaw or Eldritch Claws or the like.
- Power Attack is an effect that modifies weapon damage.
- Power Attack is an effect that checks weapon type.
- Power Attack treats monk IUS as a natural weapon when it improves monk IUS (it does).
- All natural attacks are either primary or secondary. There is no third option.
RAW has been provided. If you have RAW contradicting any of my statements, please provide.
Without providing RAW, all you are putting forward is house rules and unsupported opinions.
Quoted RAW is provided proving all natural weapons must be either primary or secondary without exception. The rules do not allow for "untyped" natural weapons.RAW definitions demonstrating primary and secondary natural weapons have also been provided.
What has not been provided is RAW granting monk IUS a specific exception to the general rule requiring all natural weapons to be either primary or secondary.
An Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon even for a Monk. Thus it never is classified as Primary or Secondary.
It's only treated as one for "spells and effects that enhance and improve".
You are doing mental gymnastics to reach what you are saying.
All RAW has been quoted backing each step of the process.
If you have RAW that states something to the contrary, provide it.
"Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat)."
An Unarmed Strike is not a Natural Attack.
Being a Monk does not change that.
That is the general rule for IUS.
Specific rules for Monk IUS have been provided.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Specific > General
That is the general rule for IUS.
Specific rules for Monk IUS have been provided.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural...
Being treated as Natural Weapon for certain effects still doesn't make it a Natural Attack.
The Monk's ability doesn't make it a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack.
Being treated as Natural Weapon for certain effects still doesn't make it a Natural Attack.That is the general rule for IUS.
Specific rules for Monk IUS have been provided.
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural...
It is treated as such, meaning "dealt with in the same manner as."
/trēt/
verb
1.
behave toward or deal with in a certain way
The Monk's ability doesn't make it a Primary or Secondary Natural Attack.
Again RAW states
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.
You have yet to provide relevant RAW backing any of your assertions.
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."
The amount may depend on the type of weapon, but all it does is check that type. You can check something to determine a result without "affecting" the thing you check for. And that's what Power Attack does: it checks the weapon type, and then it goes on to not ever do anything to the weapon it just checked. It really doesn't affect the weapon. It just adds damage to melee attacks. Just like you check a target's hit points when applying a Power Word Stun: you check hitpoints, but you don't affect those hit points.
Again RAW states
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.You have yet to provide relevant RAW backing any of your assertions.
Unarmed Strikes are specifically mentioned as not being Natural Attacks.
The Monk's ability...
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
...Doesn't make an Unarmed Strike a Natural Weapon. It is only treated as it for "spells and effects"; which does not include Primary or Secondary.
So how is the Universal Monster Rules section on Natural Attacks relevant at all for something that isn't a Natural Attack?
Also watch the snark Snowlilly. Just because no one agrees with you doesn't make any of us "English impaired" or "unable to follow the entire process without loosing track".
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."
Damage is a weapon quality
All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Again RAW states
These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks.You have yet to provide relevant RAW backing any of your assertions.Unarmed Strikes are specifically mentioned as not being Natural Attacks.
The Monk's ability...
"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
...Doesn't make an Unarmed Strike a Natural Weapon. It is only treated as it for "spells and effects"; which does not include Primary or Secondary.
So how is the Universal Monster Rules section on Natural Attacks relevant at all for something that isn't a Natural Attack?
You have to understand the definition of "treated as", which I provided for you.
In order to "treat as", you have to reference the relevant rules to understand how the subject is to be treated.
In this case, in order to treat monk IUS as natural weapons, you have to first reference and comprehend the natural weapon rules.
Since monk IUS makes no specific exception for categorizing monk IUS while using natural weapon rules, we examine the relevant rules to find how monk IUS behaves. Of the two available options primary is the only category that fits.
Even if you fail to accept that, natural weapon rules go one step further.
If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
The only type of attack the monk has that is treated as a natural weapon is IUS. (Specific characters may have natural attacks other than IUS, but it is not a monk class feature.)
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."Damage is a weapon quality
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
You are taking rules out of context.
The section you quoted is for how much damage dice a weapon uses.
"Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given, then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon's extra attack. Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for Tiny and Large weapons."
Power Attack certainly doesn't effect the damage dice of a weapon.
Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
weapons wrote:
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
The section you placed in Bold is pertaining to extra damage dice.
Which is even clarified in the combat section.
"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
So what your quoting has nothing to do with Power Attack.
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."Damage is a weapon quality
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
You are taking rules out of context.
The section you quoted is for how much damage dice a weapon uses.
"Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled "Dmg (S)" is for Small weapons. The column labeled "Dmg (M)" is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given, then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon's extra attack. Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for Tiny and Large weapons."Power Attack certainly doesn't effect the damage dice of a weapon.
Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
weapons wrote:
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
The section you placed in Bold is pertaining to extra damage dice.
Which is even clarified in the combat section.
"Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."So what your quoting has nothing to do with Power Attack.
Nothing in the quoted RAW mentions dice. That is a word you are adding in.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.
If Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is an effect that is modifying a weapon quality.
RAW leaves no room between the two.
Most people apply critical modifiers to damage from Power Attack, meaning they are treating Power Attack as a modifier to normal weapon damage. If the argument becomes "Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage", the argument also becomes "Power Attack should not be multiplied on a critical hit."
The the combat section says:
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Only modifiers to weapon damage are multiplied.
This, again, supports my statements. If Power Attack is a modifier to weapon damage it is an effect modifying a weapon quality.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to weapon damage, it is not multiplied.
You have to understand the definition of "treated as", which I provided for you.
Quoting a dictionary isn't helpful for deciding rules terms in Pathfinder.
In order to "treat as", you have to reference the relevant rules to understand how the subject is to be treated.
In this case, in order to treat monk IUS as natural weapons, you have to first reference and comprehend the natural weapon rules.
No you really don't need to reference natural weapon rules, since Unarmed Strike isn't a Natural Weapon.
You only treat a Monk's Unarmed Strike as "Natural" for "spells and effects that enhance or improve".
Like Magic Fang (spell), Strong Jaw (spell), Eldritch Claws (feat) etc.
They never actually become a Natural Weapon.
Since monk IUS makes no specific exception for categorizing monk IUS while using natural weapon rules, we examine the relevant rules to find how monk IUS behaves. Of the two available options primary is the only category that fits.
If it doesn't classify what it behaves as you don't get to add that into the rules for a Monk's Unarmed Strike.
It's still not a Natural Weapon and doesn't follow the Universal Monster Rules for Natural Weapons.
Even if you fail to accept that, natural weapon rules go one step further.
Natural Weapons wrote:If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
That is taken out of context.
"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
This pertains to Natural Attacks only. Specifically, what you are quoting is about when a creature has one type of Natural Attack (like Claw) but gets two attacks with that one type of attack. (2 Claws).
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."Damage is a weapon quality
All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't affect the damage quality of a weapon.
It adds to melee damage rolls. A roll is when you pick up dice and drop them with the intent to generate a random number. That number is what Power Attack adds to. It's really completely explicit in the rules.
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."Damage is a weapon quality
All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't affect the damage quality of a weapon.
It adds to melee damage rolls. A roll is when you pick up dice and drop them with the intent to generate a random number. That number is what Power Attack adds to. It's really completely explicit in the rules.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
It is well within context. Monks only have one type of attack that is treated as a natural weapons, IUS. The quoted RAW provides a default classification of primary when a combatant has only a single type of natural weapon.
No.
A Monk's Unarmed Strike is only treated as a natural attack for "spells and effects that enhance or improve".
The section your quoting from is neither a spell or effect that enhances or improves.
You are adding steps that RAW does not mention and quoting parts of the rules that literally have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Weapons wrote:Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
NO
You are quoting the Equipment section and only partially quoting it.
Here it is in full.
"Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
This is in reference to the weapons damage dice. It explains that fully in the Equipment section.
This portion your hung up on.
"Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
Is only in reference to.
"Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
Which is in the Combat section. It fully explains Critical Hits in the Combat section of the rules and they DO NOT function like you claim.
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2."
Power Attack may be an "effect" or not, but that really doesn't matter. Because it doesn't enhance or improve natural weapons. It just adds a "bonus on all melee damage rolls."Damage is a weapon quality
All weapons deal hit point damage.
...
Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
** spoiler omitted **
It doesn't affect the damage quality of a weapon.
It adds to melee damage rolls. A roll is when you pick up dice and drop them with the intent to generate a random number. That number is what Power Attack adds to. It's really completely explicit in the rules.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
The combat rules conflict with that, and those are the rules people use for combat. The rule you quote would lead you to not multiplying any damage modifiers at all.
"Strength bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result."
So you're advocating we shouldn't be multiplying the strength bonus for criticals? After all, they are "Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage".
Mmmh... I think you're reading this backward :
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
This say if an effect take place that give something to a natural attack then it apply to your unarmed strike. It never state that when you hit you make a natural attack, you still make an unarmed strike...
And :
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
This state that your attack must be a primary natural attack to give the 50% bonus.
Since you are making an Unarmed Strike that "gain the effect of" a and not a rreal Natural Attack you cannot trigger the Primary Natural Attack part of Power Attack when you make you Unarmed Strike... The reason is simple : you make an Unarmed Strike... I don't get what you don't get in : the trigger for the +50% Damage Bonus in Power Attack is hitting with a Primary Natural Attack and you are hitting with an Unarmed Strike... ;)
Edit : The trigger for determinig what bonus power attack give is not given prior the attack but at the moment of the attack and only depend on the TYPE of the attack...
It is well within context. Monks only have one type of attack that is treated as a natural weapons, IUS. The quoted RAW provides a default classification of primary when a combatant has only a single type of natural weapon.No.
A Monk's Unarmed Strike is only treated as a natural attack for "spells and effects that enhance or improve".
The section your quoting from is neither a spell or effect that enhances or improves.
/əˈfekt/
noun
noun: effect; plural noun: effects
1.
a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause
2. The effect is positive in nature for the user; it modifies the damage quality of the weapon in a desired manner.
You are adding steps that RAW does not mention and quoting parts of the rules that literally have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I am quoting RAW relevant to each objection raised, which, obviously, the people using the objections never fully explored.
2. All rules interact with each other over broad areas of the game. It is the reason why developers are (or should be) very careful about changes made to the rules. They can have far flung implications far beyond the subject targeted by the initial ruling. We've seen this time and again when FAQs are made in a careless or ambiguous manner.
1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.
Quote please.
1. Power Attack is an effect that changes weapon damage.
2. The effect is positive in nature for the user; it modifies the damage quality of the weapon in a desired manner.
This is flat out wrong.
Not only does Power Attack not say that...
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
But "Weapon Damage" is literally just the damage dice used by a weapon. Since your pulling that quote from the Weapon Chart in the equipment section. Which Power Attack doesn't effect.
Also Snowlilly i suppose your logic would apply to the Beaststrike Club?
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Obviously this can't be settled by anything short of a FAQ, as even a developer comment would be ignored by those believing everything is an effect including Power Attack ratio based on weapon type.
Until a FAQ, players should Ask their GM if they use Snowlilly's interpretation or the more common interpretation.