I would say that it's Str + Str on the first attack and Str + 1/2 Str on the other attacks.The fist is not an attack that deals one and a half strength damage. The fist is an attack that deals 1x strength damage, and you have a feat that very specifically adds a bonus of one half your strength damage.No, Dragon Ferocity should read "While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of twice your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 your Strength bonus on the other attacks"A monk using Dragon Ferocity deals x2 STR damage on the first attack each round and x1.5 STR damage on all other attack.
This is how old dragon style work. When they made the no double stat FAQ they had to change dragon style to actually be a high str bonus to begin with to still work as intended, cause your way you're trying to add 2 bonuses from str so you take the highest x1 and ignore the other, so the feats do nothing. So it really is 2x str and 1.5x str, no bonus damage being added to strength.
For me, the biggest factor to this is the intro to Unarmed Attacks:
** spoiler omitted **
The Monk's Unarmed Strike modifies some things in here, but does not specify that it modifies the part that states "like attacking with a melee weapon."
Thus, there is no specific overruling general on how to treat an Unarmed Attack while actually attacking.
Just my 2 cents.
There is nothing stating when in the process effects are or are not applied. Only the blanket statement that monk IUS is treated as both manufactured and natural weapons for all beneficial effects.
Barring specific exceptions, this broad statement means any and all beneficial effects that occur at any step in the process.
In the specific case of Power Attack, the decision to use power attack is made prior to the first attack on the acting character's turn and persists until the beginning of that character's next turn.
How Power Attack is resolved is determined on a per attack basis, and may change on a per attack basis, depending on specific rules and modes of attack. E.g. A dragon's various natural attacks will, depending on the specific attack, receive a x1.5 PA modifier, a x1 modifier and a x0.5 modifier, all in the same round.
Snowlilly...
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
Wrong.
If the argument is that Power Attack is anything other than a modifier to normal weapon damage, the consequence of the argument is that Power Attack is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Wrong.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Weapons wrote:Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
Wrong.
Nothing in the quoted RAW mentions dice. That is a word you are adding in.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.
If Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is an effect that is modifying a weapon quality.
RAW leaves no room between the two.
Most people apply critical modifiers to damage from Power Attack, meaning they are treating Power Attack as a modifier to normal weapon damage. If the argument becomes "Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage", the argument also becomes "Power Attack should not be multiplied on a critical hit."
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
weapons wrote:Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
NO. NO. NO.
So now that your faulty argument for Power Attack is gone what else have you got?
Power Attack doesn't effect weapon damage like you claimed and your only defense was an attempt to use the Weapon Chart from Equipment. Which as you can see meant exactly what we told you.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage (such as sneak attack damage or bonus damage from the flaming weapon quality) is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
×2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons deal triple or quadruple damage.
×2/×3: One head of this double weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. The other head deals triple damage. Some double weapons' heads deal triple and quadruple damage on a critical hit.
19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons score a threat on a natural 18 as well, or deal triple instead of double damage on a critical hit.
So now all you have is a flimsy argument that claims Monk's Unarmed Strike are Primary Natural Weapons when used with Dragon Style/Ferocity and Power Attack.
Mainly since your stuck on the word "treated as".
It is treated as such, meaning "dealt with in the same manner as."
"Treated as" = behaves in the same way as. Taken in context this equals = use same rules as.
You have to understand the definition of "treated as", which I provided for you.
In order to "treat as", you have to reference the relevant rules to understand how the subject is to be treated.
In this case, in order to treat monk IUS as natural weapons, you have to first reference and comprehend the natural weapon rules.
A Monk's Unarmed Strike is only "treated as" a natural weapon for spells and effects that enhance or improve. Not for everything.
If we follow your logic I quoted above then i suppose you also think a Monk could use Masterwork Transformation on Unarmed Strikes?
Since they are "treated as" manufactured weapons. Right Snowlilly?
Monk IUS only counts as a manufactured weapons for effects that enhance or improve.
Or maybe just maybe you're wrong. (again)
Then you misquoted the Natural Weapon section.
Even if you fail to accept that, natural weapon rules go one step further.
The only type of attack the monk has that is treated as a natural weapon is IUS. (Specific characters may have natural attacks other than IUS, but it is not a monk class feature.)If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Which i promptly showed was wrong and taken out of context.
"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
This pertains to Natural Attacks only. Specifically, what you are quoting is about when a creature has one type of Natural Attack (like Claw) but gets two attacks with that one type of attack. (2 Claws)."
Plus as has been show over and over and over...Unarmed Strikes are NOT NATURAL WEAPONS.
The Monk's ability doesn't change that.
I don't believe general rules are classified as effects.
Then why oh why are you referencing the general rules for Natural Attacks for Unarmed Strikes??????
This is how old dragon style work. When they made the no double stat FAQ they had to change dragon style to actually be a high str bonus to begin with to still work as intended, cause your way you're trying to add 2 bonuses from str so you take the highest x1 and ignore the other, so the feats do nothing.
Or they're a very specific exception to a general rule, and work as suggested.
This is how old dragon style work. When they made the no double stat FAQ they had to change dragon style to actually be a high str bonus to begin with to still work as intended, cause your way you're trying to add 2 bonuses from str so you take the highest x1 and ignore the other, so the feats do nothing.Or they're a very specific exception to a general rule, and work as suggested.
You are looking at the updated feats that don't say you're getting bonus damage but that it's actually increasing the str bonus you're getting?
While using Dragon Style, increase your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls by an additional one-half your Strength bonus, to a total of double your Strength bonus on the first attack and 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the other attacks.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
There is no specific exclusion, but neither is there a specific inclusion. The RAW for criticals states only modifiers to weapon damage are multiplied. If you want to assert that Power Attack is an effect that modifies weapon damage, I have no issues with that."Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."
My Power Attack bonus is not excluded.
Thus, Power Attack damage is multiplied for criticals.
You're not looking at the rules for criticals. You're looking at one entry of the legend of the weapons table, the entry named critical.
The complete and comprehensive rules for critical hits appear in the combat chapter.
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to "confirm" the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
When you're going through the above rules step by step to determine how to run critical hits, why on earth would you stop following these steps, flip back through the book to find an incomplete and ambiguous version of these rules in the legend of a table, especially if that version of the rules clashes with the result you're actually aiming for? Don't you want to multiply your strength bonus on critical hits?
And here's the real kicker: The rules you prefer actually refer you to the rules in the combat chapter, in their very first sentence no less: "The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits." (bolded for emphasis)
That's all kinds of incorrect.
For starters, modifiers on a given roll doesn't mean you're changing the actual roll that the dice gave you. If that was the case, then if I rolled a 10, then having a +10 to hit means I rolled a Natural 20, and could potentially critically hit an enemy. You know how silly that sounds? Because that's exactly what you're perpetuating here with that claim, since mathematically speaking, that's what your claim is permitting me to do. Which is obviously unintended.
Furthermore, Power Attack does not increase the damage dice of the weapon like Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does, it simply adds a flat modifier to the total damage dealt by the melee attack at the expense of reducing the attack roll modifier. That's all it does. Nothing more, nothing less. Saying Power Attack affects your damage rolls the same way Lead Blades or Enlarge Person does is a disingenuous argument that is absolutely not reflected in most every statblock that Paizo has published, which means you're still clearly in the wrong.
I don't disagree with the way things have been run to date. I simply point out what your reinterpretation of Power Attack leads too.
The RAw states:
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.If we assume Power Attack is an effect that modifies normal weapon damage, Power Attack is multiplied on a critical hit and it falls under monk IUS rules for enhancing natural weapons.
If we assume Power Attack does not modify normal weapon damage, modifying only the result of the dice roll, the damage bonus is not multiplied on a critical hit.
And while we're on the topic of Monk Unarmed Strikes, it's time to play a game of "spot the difference" between what the rules say, and what you keep saying:
A copy of what I actually posted earlier
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and...
Clearly, you do, otherwise you wouldn't be making such a big deal about people stating Monk Unarmed Strikes are not Natural Weapons of any kind, primary or secondary. (If they were, they'd also be mentioned in the Natural Attacks Universal Monster Rules table. Just saying.)
Relevant FAQ says your citation of the weapons entry exception is wrong, and further clarifies what that statement means. In short, Power Attack is multiplied, because it's a damage bonus, not damage dice.
Also, Critical Hits determining how Monk Unarmed Strikes function like Natural Weapons is a strawman argument, because nobody suggested that crits prove or disprove that Monk Unarmed Strikes aren't natural weapons, and they're by-and-large irrelevant, so I suggest you pick another avenue of defense, because it's currently thoroughly broken through.
I know what you posted earlier. I also know what you're trying to get at, but the problem is that nobody can reach that conclusion without drastically altering what the entry actually says, and how similar that entry is to other entries that say you "treat X as Y for Z" that also disallow that sort of combination.
1. The rules environment is not an effect unto itself.Power attack is in the rules environment.
So it's as valid a target for your "effect" as octopus 8 tentacles.
The general rules environment is not a change or modification to the general rules environment.
General combat rules do not allow for taking a to-hit penalty in exchange for additional damage.
Power Attack is an effect that modifies the general rules environment, allowing those with access to the effect the option to enact additional rules allowing the desired change; permitting a character to take a to-hit penalty in exchange for a positive weapon damage modifier.
Snowlilly...
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
Wrong.
If the argument is that Power Attack is anything other than a modifier to normal weapon damage, the consequence of the argument is that Power Attack is not multiplied on a critical hit.Wrong.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Weapons wrote:Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
Wrong.
Nothing in the quoted RAW mentions dice. That is a word you are adding in.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.
If Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is an effect that is modifying a weapon quality.
RAW leaves no room between the two.
Most people apply critical modifiers to damage from Power Attack, meaning they are treating Power Attack as a modifier to normal weapon damage. If the argument becomes "Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage", the argument also becomes "Power Attack should not be multiplied on a critical hit."
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
...Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
weapons wrote:Critical: The entry in this
How cute! You've been reduced to chanting WRONG WRONG WRONG as a the primary mechanism for defending your argument.
It's kind of like chanting FAKE NEWS, but involves fewer syllables.
...Snowlilly...
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
Wrong.
If the argument is that Power Attack is anything other than a modifier to normal weapon damage, the consequence of the argument is that Power Attack is not multiplied on a critical hit.Wrong.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Weapons wrote:Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
Wrong.
Nothing in the quoted RAW mentions dice. That is a word you are adding in.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.
If Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is an effect that is modifying a weapon quality.
RAW leaves no room between the two.
Most people apply critical modifiers to damage from Power Attack, meaning they are treating Power Attack as a modifier to normal weapon damage. If the argument becomes "Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage", the argument also becomes "Power Attack should not be multiplied on a critical hit."
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical hit.
weapons wrote:
How cute! You didn't read the whole post.
I quoted a number of things you said that were wrong and then quoted the reason why you were wrong.
"Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage (such as sneak attack damage or bonus damage from the flaming weapon quality) is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
×2: The weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons deal triple or quadruple damage.
×2/×3: One head of this double weapon deals double damage on a critical hit. The other head deals triple damage. Some double weapons' heads deal triple and quadruple damage on a critical hit.
19–20/×2: The weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 19 or 20 (instead of just 20) and deals double damage on a critical hit. Some weapons score a threat on a natural 18 as well, or deal triple instead of double damage on a critical hit."
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.
Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Removing all extraneous text, we see that the rules text from the Combat rules dealing with critical hits is an abbreviated restatement of the rules from the Weapons section.
The rules from the combat section do not define "usual bonuses." To find what "usual bonuses" are, we refer back to the weapon damage rules, which provide us with a slightly more expansive definition.
While neither set of rules explicitly spells out what is and is not included, we do know that only modifiers to "normal weapon damage" are usually multiplied. Specific exceptions do exist, but Power Attack has no such exception.
This puts us right back to my argument: Power Attack is only multiplied if it modifies weapon Damage.
Personally, I believe this to be true, however ...
Individuals are arguing that Power Attack does not modify weapon damage in a short-sighted effort to prevent Power Attack from working in conjunction with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity.
Short sighted arguments made without fully exploring all implications often have unintended side-affects. In the case of Power Attack, a successful argument that Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage would have the unintended side affect of preventing Power Attack from being multiplied on a confirmed critical.
...Snowlilly...
Power Attack has no specific rules regarding damage multiplication on a critical hit, so general rules apply.
In an attempt to prevent Power Attack from working with Monk IUS + Dragon Ferocity, the argument is being made that Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage.
I disagree, but if this argument holds true the result is clearly spelled out under the general rules for critical hits. Only normal weapon damage is multiplied on a critical hit.
Wrong.
If the argument is that Power Attack is anything other than a modifier to normal weapon damage, the consequence of the argument is that Power Attack is not multiplied on a critical hit.Wrong.
It Power Attack is affecting the rolls and not the damage, this rule applies
Weapons wrote:Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Per your statement, Power Attack is not modifying normal weapon damage and is therefore not multiplied on a critical.
Wrong.
Nothing in the quoted RAW mentions dice. That is a word you are adding in.
If Power Attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is not multiplied on a critical hit.
If Power Attack is a modifier to normal weapon damage, it is an effect that is modifying a weapon quality.
RAW leaves no room between the two.
Most people apply critical modifiers to damage from Power Attack, meaning they are treating Power Attack as a modifier to normal weapon damage. If the argument becomes "Power Attack is not an effect that modifies normal weapon damage", the argument also becomes "Power Attack should not be multiplied on a critical hit."
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Please argue Power attack is not a modifier to normal weapon damage.
Only modifiers to normal weapon damage are multiplied on a critical
No, it just took time to respond with the appropriate precision to the section of your post that actually dealt with RAW.
