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Ok, this thread has convinced me to create a Necromancer Paladin... so, would that make him a Necroladin or a Palamancer?
Totally legal. And there is a way to generate Lawful Good Undead within PFS....
That Skeleton Summoner feat from UM is PFS legal. Let's you summon undead with summon monster. As per summon monster, summoned creatures have the alignment of the summoner. Additionally, since undead lack the evil subtype (inherently, some undead have it anyway), it does not make the spell evil, so no risk of falling.
Good way to get Deathless from 3.5 into the Pathfinder Setting.
Though regarding the mix of classes, I suggest a CHA based caster, instead of the Wizard Necromancer, just because it will mix with a Paladin's stats better. A Sorcerer, Oracle, or Summoner could make for a decent pairing with a Paladin.
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Ok, this thread has convinced me to create a Necromancer Paladin... so, would that make him a Necroladin or a Palamancer?Totally legal. And there is a way to generate Lawful Good Undead within PFS....
That Skeleton Summoner feat from UM is PFS legal. Let's you summon undead with summon monster. As per summon monster, summoned creatures have the alignment of the summoner. Additionally, since undead lack the evil subtype (inherently, some undead have it anyway), it does not make the spell evil, so no risk of falling.
Good way to get Deathless from 3.5 into the Pathfinder Setting.
Though regarding the mix of classes, I suggest a CHA based caster, instead of the Wizard Necromancer, just because it will mix with a Paladin's stats better. A Sorcerer, Oracle, or Summoner could make for a decent pairing with a Paladin.
Not every monster summoned shares your alignment, you can not summon a LG devil or elemental that way for instance. A lot of the list is summoned with your alignment, but just be careful there.
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That Skeleton Summoner feat from UM is PFS legal. Let's you summon undead with summon monster
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.
While undead don't technically have a sub type, you are at best splitting the atom on that hair.
it could also be parsed as "summon a creature (with an alignment) or (with a subtype)
It could also very easily fall under dishonorable, and more likely against the tenets of your particular god.
I would not try this in organized play.
As per summon monster, summoned creatures have the alignment of the summoner.
Nope.
Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment.
no *, no matching your alignment.
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Not every monster summoned shares your alignment, you can not summon a LG devil or elemental that way for instance. A lot of the list is summoned with your alignment, but just be careful there.
The Skeleton Summoner feat only works on creatures that would normally have the celestial or fiendish template, and instead makes them undead. And that ability is once per day. It also gains you access to a pair of low level undead summons, but nothing powerful. The feat is actually very weak, and not usually something that is worth investing in, other than as a means for generating undead without offending alignments as much.
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It could also very easily fall under dishonorable, and more likely against the tenets of your particular god.I would not try this in organized play.
Which paladin eligible diety has a stance against the use of unaligned summons?
This spell doesn't require creating the undead, you are merely moving existing undead to fight for you, then returning them to where they were.
How is that more dishonorable than summoning an animal to fight for you? At least with the mindless undead, you don't need to worry about the summoing causing psychological harm to the summoned creature (I'd imagine being summoned causes great mental trauma). And with mindless undead, there's no need to consider the creature's will you are suppressing with your spell.
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Which paladin eligible diety has a stance against the use of unaligned summons?
All good deities have problems with undead. You are making a use of undead, your god probably has a problem with that.
You are taking the substance of another plane, and temporarily weaving it into the shape and form of an evil creature, and it IS an evil creature. Albeity temporarily. Saying it isn't evil because its only evil and not [evil] is far more questionable hair splitting than you want to try to get every table.
Its border line trolling and the DM has more than ample grounds to say no. Subjective calls are still legitimate calls.
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Which paladin eligible diety has a stance against the use of unaligned summons?
All good deities have problems with undead. You are making a use of undead, your god probably has a problem with that.
You are taking the substance of another plane, and temporarily weaving it into the shape and form of an evil creature, and it IS an evil creature. Albeity temporarily. Saying it isn't evil because its only evil and not [evil] is far more questionable hair splitting than you want to try to get every table.
Its border line trolling and the DM has more than ample grounds to say no. Subjective calls are still legitimate calls.
No. When summoned by the paladin-necromancer via this spell (and feat), the summoned undead would be Lawful Good. It is not evil, nor inclined to do evil. It would only do things the paladin commanded it to do (usually just attack things since there's no language listed for human skeletons).
And accoring to the Pathfinder rulebook, Summon Monster doesn't create creatures with magic, it just moves them, forces them to obey your commands, and then returns them to their point of origin without any lasting physical damage (unclear if they remember it or could be traumatized by the experience).
Nothing in the spell description, the feat, nor the use of undead in this manner is specifically banned from the normal paladin code. Some specific deity codes or archetypes may be more restrictive in this manner, and those would be restricted.
I suppose though, it would depend why you were trying to do this. If the point was trolling, that would be an issue.
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No. When summoned by the paladin-necromancer via this spell (and feat), the summoned undead would be Lawful Good.
This is objectively wrong, two people already quoted the rule for you. The rule you are citing as a general rule is a specific rule for things marked with an asterix on the chart.
And accoring to the Pathfinder rulebook,
Also, not something in the book.
Nothing in the spell description, the feat, nor the use of undead in this manner is specifically banned from the normal paladin code.
Dishonorable action
Violating the tenets of your godAssociating and making use of evil beings on a regular basis
Asmodeous levels rules lawyering.
Yes. The DM has more than ample grounds to banhammer this build. I would not only expect table variation i would expect "oh hell no" to be standard and "yeah whatever" to be the variation. Your arguments to the contrary are both unconvincing and factually wrong, not remotely good enough to try to browbeat the DM into accepting.
Leave over. This doesn't work.
Murdock the spells says to apply the Skeleton Template, to the creature check the Alignment section of that template. Always Neutral Evil. It loses type and any alignment subtype meaning its a evil skeleton.
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Murdock the spells says to apply the Skeleton Template, to the creature check the Alignment section of that template. Always Neutral Evil. It loses type and any alignment subtype meaning its a evil skeleton.
Hmm...was thinking that undead template replaced the celestial/fiendish template for the skeleton summons as * creatures, but in rereading doesn't seem to be the case. I may be incorrect on this one, at least with regards to summoning Human Skeletons and human skeleton champions.
A creature marked with a * that has the undead templated added (once per day for the feat) should become the alignment of the caster, as the spell (summon monster) specifies that the caster's alignment is used regardless of their usual aligment (usual alignment for an a creature affected by the skeleton template is neutral evil, as mentioned).
Hmm...even less useful than before, as necro-pally would only benefit from the feat once per day.
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All good deities have problems with undead.
Serious side question. Is there actually an official source on that ALL good deities have issues with undead, or is it just assumed based on their alignment?
I've been tinkering with making a Seperatist Cleric of a good deity, but having the Undead Domain for the Seperatist Domain. The base domain power for the undead domain has some wonderful synergy with anti-undead spells and abilities. I did think it was odd that although the evil domain would be banned for a seperatist cleric of a good diety, while the undead domain is apparently fine....
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All good deities have problems with undead.Serious side question. Is there actually an official source on that ALL good deities have issues with undead, or is it just assumed based on their alignment?
I've been tinkering with making a Seperatist Cleric of a good deity, but having the Undead Domain for the Seperatist Domain. The base domain power for the undead domain has some wonderful synergy with anti-undead spells and abilities. I did think it was odd that although the evil domain would be banned for a seperatist cleric of a good diety, while the undead domain is apparently fine....
That's like asking if good deities have a problem with Fiends. The answer is a resounding yes. They're monsters, with very, very few exceptions.
Are you going to find text in each good aligned Deity entry that says "this deity does not like undead"? No. Because it's something that is so obvious it doesn't need to be asked.
Do Good deities have a problem with Undead?
Do Good deities have a problem with cold-blooded murder?
Do Good deities have a problem with Evil?
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To your second question note that you're still limited by what spells you can cast due to your Deity's alignment so you can't create Undead if your Deity is Good.Paladins that acquire Animate Dead through Unsacntioned Knowledge do not have that restriction, as the lack the Chaotic, Evil, Good and Lawful Spells class feature.
Casting an aligned spell is an aligned act so casting evil spell is an evil act so Paladin auto-Fall.
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, though it may violate a character's code or tenets of faith. Commiting an evil act outside of casting a spell, such as using an evil spell to torment an innocent NPC, is an alignment infraction.
So while in PFS it isn't an "alignment infraction" it's still an Evil act.
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All good deities have problems with undead.Serious side question. Is there actually an official source on that ALL good deities have issues with undead, or is it just assumed based on their alignment?No. Because it's something that is so obvious it doesn't need to be asked.
I see, so it's a houserule (or personal take on the rules). Got it.
To your second question note that you're still limited by what spells you can cast due to your Deity's alignment so you can't create Undead if your Deity is Good.Yeah, I noted that one. So it would be a pretty limited domain.
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, though it may violate a character's code or tenets of faith. Commiting an evil act outside of casting a spell, such as using an evil spell to torment an innocent NPC, is an alignment infraction.So while in PFS it isn't an "alignment infraction" it's still an Evil act.
I don't think PFS has that rule in play, where evil spells are inherently evil acts. Though that would be crossing the line for my use of paladins. I don't think the Paladin would be willing to "knowingly" cast evil spells.
There's probably some obscure way to unknowly cast them, but even there, I think my paladin would feel pretty guilty for doing something like that, even if it didn't offically require atonement.
I don't see the same issue with summons, since you aren't creating the undead, and have no ability to actually destroy the undead (since the spell returns them to their point of origin when it ends or the summon is reduced to zero hp). Plus the spell isn't an evil spell because undead lack that subtype. Seems just as moral as using summoned snakes or horses to defeat your enemy...
Oh, side question on the Summon Skeleton feat. Does the Human Skeleton have any languages? It doesn't list any in the example, but the template doesn't actually remove languages....Never been clear if undead can speak or be spoken to in Pathfinder.
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I see, so it's a houserule (or personal take on the rules). Got it.
It is not. It would really help if you stopped translating everything someone tells you that you don't like as "house rules" in order to delegitimize it. Its poor rules interpretation and it's worse posting.
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
This is part of the base spellcasting ability of a cleric. it is NOT altered by the separatist so it remains in force.
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I see, so it's a houserule (or personal take on the rules). Got it.Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.
This is part of the base spellcasting ability of a cleric. it is NOT altered by the separatist so it remains in force.
Totally agree. The Undead Subdomain, however, is part of the Death Domain. It is not part of an aligned domain, nor does it innately conflict with Good Deities based on written text. And a seperatist isn't a seperatist for having a like-minded understanding of a deity...that's the whole concept, they're a radical thinker that is so outside the normal belief that they sometimes creater their own splinter for that religion.
But, yes, the Undead Domain would certainly include many spells which could not be cast at all if the deity was good. Sort of like how Urgathoa has access to the Divine Subdomain, whose first level domain spell is bless water, a spell that her clerics can never cast...
An that is in play in PFS, I just quoted the PFS FAQ. A Paladin casting an Evil spell would violate their Code.Link, please.
This was already quoted at you.
What code do you think they're talking about?
The FAQ you quoted says that casting an evil spell is not always an evil act. And that it "may" violate your code. But the FAQ does not say that "Paladins can't cast evil descriptor spells at all, and if they do, that paladins will always violate their code for doing so."
Anyway, I don't think that a Paladin should be casting evil spells at all, but I don't think the rules strictly say they can't, or that doing so will always violate their code.
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Anyway, I don't think that a Paladin should be casting evil spells at all, but I don't think the rules strictly say they can't, or that doing will always violate their code.
Then you're misreading them. I don't know what else to tell you. The statement is completely meaningless read any other way.
-Hey, i can rules lawyer it so it says something else that i want it to say..so it doesn't say what ie means- is not the best start for a rules discussion.
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Then you're misreading them. I don't know what else to tell you. The statement is completely meaningless read any other way.
Not meaningless. They are clarifying that the evil descriptor does not inherently translate to an evil action, or otherwise innately violate a code or faith's tenents. Prior to this FAQ, there was some debate on whether evil descriptor spells would inherently translate to evil actions, which this clarifies that they are not inherently evil, provided the spell is not used for evil purposes.
Otherwise you end up with situations where the character has their alignment slipping because they used Protection from Good or Curse Water, which is so not the intention of those spells.
Other spells, like Create Undead or Animate Dead, on the other hand, are probably very difficult, if not impossible, to use in a Good capacity. So, yeah, those would be evil acts, but not innately because they are evil spells.
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No, that is not what the FAQ says.
It says those are Evil, but due to the nature of PFS you would not suffer an alignment infraction for casting them. It flat out says that casting an Evil spell would still violate a Paladin's code or their faith.
Paladin gets hold of Evil spell.
Paladin uses Evil spell.
Paladin falls.
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Not meaningless. They are clarifying that the evil descriptor does not inherently translate to an evil action, or other innately violate a code or faith's tenents.
There is no way to read that so that the italicized portion is true. At all. The entire point of that clause is that your Neutral necromancer can cast create undead until the zombie cows come home, he doesn't become evil, but clearly, explicitly, and directly tells you that you can still violate a code of ethics (of which paladins have the most prominent one that has a problem with evil stuff)
If you want to try to argue that the evil stuff is fine because it's [evil] you're looking for the church of asmodeous or abadar, not Iomadae.
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No, that is not what the FAQ says.
It says those are Evil, but due to the nature of PFS you would not suffer an alignment infraction for casting them. It flat out says that casting an Evil spell would still violate a Paladin's code or their faith.
Then perhaps you are quoting a different FAQ? That FAQ says that it "May" still violate the Paladin's code or tenets of their faith, despite it not being an evil act.
So, paladin get's an evil spell, and they cast in a way that isn't evil and doesn't violate their code or tenents of their faith, yeah, they don't fall. Good luck to the paladin that finds the way, but they don't automatically fail just because the spell had the evil descriptor.
For example, Casting Protection from Good on a creature that is being hunted unjustly by unlawful, but Good aligned creatures, does not warrant a fall from grace. Especially if they Paladin's Deity is Lawful Neutral.
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No, that is not what the FAQ says.
It says those are Evil, but due to the nature of PFS you would not suffer an alignment infraction for casting them. It flat out says that casting an Evil spell would still violate a Paladin's code or their faith.
Paladin gets hold of Evil spell.
Paladin uses Evil spell.
Paladin falls.
For PFS the Paladin also gets a clear and explicit warning from their god/the dm , like a dove falling out of their sky with a note attached to its leg saying "are you SURE you want to do this..."
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I cannot believe you are reading the rules in good conscience at this point.Good luck to the paladin that finds the way, but they don't automatically fail just because the spell had the evil descriptor.
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Ehh..it goes back to the Evil Descriptor, which is really not applied evenly to spells. The descriptor is mainly used in regards to the cleric class feature, rather that specifically denoting spells with only evil applications. Spells like Protection from Good are evil descriptor spells, but they are spells that even a Good-aligned creature should have access to. That spell is really not something that should be considered an aligned spell for the purposes of determining what a paladin or otherwise good creature can do. Good fights against Good, too, and that spell only offers protection from hostility.
It's true, though, most of the Evil spells are genuinely evil and will not be useable by any paladin under any circumstances. Spells like Create Undead, for example, really have no good aligned applications, and would definitely qualify as evil acts (if not also illegal acts and likely violating the tenents of their faith).
Does that explain my stance better? Don't need to agree, but would be nice if you understood it.
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It's true, though, most of the Evil spells are genuinely evil and will not be useable by any paladin under any circumstances. Spells like Create Undead, for example, really have no good aligned applications, and would definitely qualify as evil acts (if not also illegal acts and likely violating the tenents of their faith).Does that explain my stance better? Don't need to agree, but would be nice if you understood it.
Ahh, I see your misunderstanding now.
Perhaps this quote from the magic chapter, regarding the evil descriptor will clarify:
Casting an evil spell is an evil act
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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PFS is one of the few places where Necromancers don't cause issues, simply because you're on orders from higher ups.
It is acceptable, because you've been order to do it.
Full Stop.
If your character can't handle that, then they're the problem here. If you can handle that, then you're the problem.
Bingo. My hellknight is a horrible racist against witches but he is on orders from higher ups and he respects those.
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It's true, though, most of the Evil spells are genuinely evil and will not be useable by any paladin under any circumstances. Spells like Create Undead, for example, really have no good aligned applications, and would definitely qualify as evil acts (if not also illegal acts and likely violating the tenents of their faith).Does that explain my stance better? Don't need to agree, but would be nice if you understood it.
Ahh, I see your misunderstanding now.
Perhaps this quote from the magic chapter, regarding the evil descriptor will clarify:
Casting an evil spell is an evil act
Not sure if you are arguing against me, or agreeing. I haven't misunderstood this one. That FAQ clarifies your quote, so that evil spells are no longer, automatically, evil actions. Granted, they will still, usually, be evil actions just due to the nature of the spell (like creating undead or blasting all good creatures in a radius), but some will not (like protection from good).
Just like, protection from evil, cast by a neutral character, shouldn't risk shifting their alignment towards good.
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Actually, look again. Casting evil spells is still an evil act, it just is no longer an *alignment infraction*. It even goes on to state that committing *other* evil acts still might cause alignment infractions, reinforcing that it is still considered an evil act.
So, still evil, just not evil enough to ever change your alignment.
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Actually, look again. Casting evil spells is still an evil act, it just is no longer an *alignment infraction*. It even goes on to state that committing *other* evil acts still might cause alignment infractions, reinforcing that it is still considered an evil act.
So, still evil, just not evil enough to ever change your alignment.
Ah, I see the distinction now. You're arguing a distinction between evil acts and alignment infractions. Interesting, then yes, I did misunderstand the intentions above, thanks.
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Were you under the impression that any single evil action automatically shifted your alignment toward evil?
No, but I was equating alignment infractions with evil acts with regards to good aligned characters, as opposed to thinking of them as seperate concepts. If evil acts = alignment infraction, then the FAQ reads quite differently, which was my misunderstanding.