Feel the power of derailing...
Some of it was. On the flip side, as far as I recall, you're the first person to acknowledge that "merely" wounding a lot of targets is still valuable.
Imagine if your NPC was using lightning bolts and this line of reasoning was irrelevant because of that fact.
Especially with a larger party (you mentioned eight, I have six). Having two blasters is a very real concern and it's hard for me to imagine them being weak if they can one-two AoE combo a group (assuming they do 50%ish HP each per spell, for example).
this is a new one, I don't want to allow my PC to do relevant damage because then if I get another blaster player and he focuses on fireball then I'll have a problem.
Can't work out if this or the argument about not wanting to give it to them because then you'll have to kill them with it is more contrived.
Melee is out for me (others way too good at it are in line ahead of me). However, I have Overland Flight & Greater Invisibility {and Enlarge Person} now -- and thanks to you, I can cast them with greater glee than before. So do I need Gaseous (smoke) Form? And whazzat with Pyrotechnics? I looked at the spell, and didn't see the potential. {I should mention that some of those melee sorts in our party love to rush in, regardless of what the sorceress in the party might have planned.}So... what would you recommend for a half-orc Ifriti, by chance?[...]The only things you're missing (in looking at the monster entry) is the pyrotechnics, overland flight, invisibility and gaseous (or smoke) form. (Pyrotechnics is a great spell - I love it, especially since you have Wall of Fire too)
Smoke/gaseous form may have limited use. The only real advantages are the ability to seep through cracks (look inside trapped treasure chests, through locked doors, etc) and DR10/magic is good for nonmagical stuff like natural hazards, most traps, and plant & animal encounters. For how rarely you'll use it, perhaps just get a couple potions, maybe... or a wand...
Pyrotechnics is awesome. As a fire caster, you tend to have alot of fires around the battlefield, and these fires become your traps, with Pyrotechnics as the trigger.
My personal fave is to use Flaming Sphere as my fire source for Pyrotechnics. I move it around, maybe do some damage, and then use Pyrotechnics to activate smoke-bomb or flash-bomb effects.
Wall of Fire can also be used as a source for Pyrotechnics, providing some fun surprises to enemies who circumvent it, or who are resistant to fire and scoff at it.
[duration-based fire spell] + pyrotechnics is a lovely combo. It's like Stinking Cloud plus mass Blindness, all in one spell.
You can even be a little bit unorthodox and use Summon Monster to pull up a fire elemental. While the beasty fights for you, you use Pyrotechnics to make it a sort of suicide bomber. SM4 can pull up 1d4+1 small fire elemental and you can mischievously ask the party to place their bets on which one will "go nova" first. Watch as the CR8 monsters decide to run away from small fire elementals, since nobody likes being debuffed.
But I'm looking at picking up things like Greater Heroism and some spells in the Shadow subschool anyway, and thinking of it as "wish fulfillment" is fabulous. Fabricate, you say? It's nice being able to relate spell choices...
Fabricate is one of my favorite spells. "I turn the door into a wall"... "I turn the wall into a door"... "I turn the stone ceiling into a CR 6 falling block trap"... "I turn the pillar into a statue of me in combat stance, and hide"... "I turn a section of the portcullis into caltrops and jump over them on my way out"
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On the flip side, I enjoy presenting challenges to my players and watching them figure out how to overcome the encounters. And therefore his advice/perspective is of little value to me.
you realize the challenge is supposed to come from the creatures in encounters, not the DM tying a players hands behind their back and telling them to clap. Which is what you're doing.
The thing is, the sorcerer might send me an email tomorrow saying"So, I've been doing some research, and apparently all demons are immune to electricity. You've also dropped more than a few major hints that demons will play a significant role down the line. I'd like to change my bloodline to Gold/Red as a result and focus on fire spells since I didn't realize this issue earlier."
And I'd say
"Sure."
You're trying to control far too much if you're preemptively nerfing options your player might take if they re-write their entire character in one particular way.
Also demons have fire resistance. A logical person would make a battering blast caster. Or just buy a rod of elemental spell and do what they wanted in the first place?
The entire question is what defines "relevant damage."
no it doesn't thats the question you've been reduced to asking after everyone told you how your PC could do damage and you decided that the answer they gave was too OP.
Because I really don't see that being 100+ damage to a single target on a failed reflex save at level 8 (which is what you've suggested) using a spell that can hit multiple targets.
Well maybe take my suggesting then which would be 10D6+20 at this level 55 damage average. Spell Focus, Spell Specialization, Blood Havoc and allow them to take blood intensity so the damage continues to scale until he gets chain lightning and magical lineage should be there.
And for the record no I don't think 100+ damage on a save is unreasonable because for that to happen he has to use his highest level of spell and it has to bypass SR and their save. I think that you're incredibly controlling and are ruled by your own insecurities to the detriment of your players, I would hate to play in your games.
I mean, a CR 8 mob is supposed to be roughly the strength of a level 8 player. And they have 100 HP according to monster creation. So a level 8 blaster who can do 100+ damage on a failed save has a reasonable chance of killing multiple CR 8 mobs in one spell.
I know your reasoning, I've replied to it in another comment which you neglected to reply to.
You seem to be completely oblivious to the fact PCS will be able to kill creatures in this game, so yeah stick him in front of some CR 8 things and they melt. Others he won't be able to do his trick on at all if you constantly through big clumps of things that a player is good at killing big clumps of then said player will seem OP. This seems obvious to me.
The entire question is what defines "relevant damage." Because I really don't see that being 100+ damage to a single target on a failed reflex save at level 8 (which is what you've suggested) using a spell that can hit multiple targets.
I mean, a CR 8 mob is supposed to be roughly the strength of a level 8 player. And they have 100 HP according to monster creation. So a level 8 blaster who can do 100+ damage on a failed save has a reasonable chance of killing multiple CR 8 mobs in one spell.
If a CR 8 mob is attackable then the martials will also be able to kill it super fast. DPR characters do LOTS of damage and will probably be able to kill really fast anything they can full attack.
but the sorcerer only has so many spells, and resistances and saving throws reduce the damage they are dealing, similar to how AC and DR work for weapon users. So their good case scenario should be about as much damage as a weapon user's good case. Meaning how much damage a failed save no resistance does should be around what a low AC no DR enemy takes from your martials. If the martial is putting out 80 damage a round then the sorcerer should be around there too. If the martials are only putting out 40 damage then that's where the sorcerer should be too.A cr 8 enemy should be a pretty easy fight, meant to drain about 1/4th of an pretty non-optimized party's resources. Meaning that if the sorcerer has 4 top level spells per day it should only need 1 of them to handle the fight. If the casters needs more spells for that fight then he's using more than he should on the fight and wont have enough later on in the day.
Let me see if I understand your logic...
1, Finger of Death has a more limited range of targets. This means it can be more powerful than normal (just like some special anti-undead spells exist).
2, is 55+ feet (minimum range for the spell) really that much of a problem the way most people play? Do people regularly hold combats that start hundreds of feet apart?
3, a successful save is more penalizing. Ergo it can do more baseline.
4, it's a level 7 spell, so it can be betterIn other words, Finger of Death is allowed to be stronger for many reasons.
But...an Empowered Fireball is a level 5 spell (or less) and scales at ((1d6+2)*1.5) = 8.25 damage per level (assuming appropriate Draconic bloodline and Blood Havoc). Intensifying it brings it to level 6 and allows it to scale further. And any 1d6 baseline spell scales at this rate when Empowered (including Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball, Cone of Cold, etc). These are all AoE spells as well unlike Finger of Death.
Yes, but to get fireball that strong the caster had to be a specific bloodline and enhance it with two feats - and feats take resources, either by money using limited feat slots. For that reason I don't think an empowered, intensified, fireball enhanced with class abilities is comparable to a finger of death cast on its own.
Per the statblock, he has high Dexterity (3 modifier) and a Cloak of Resistance +3. I guess he could have tried to take (Improved) Lightning Reflexes but, as far as I know, there's not much else he could have reasonably done to improve his defenses versus a caster blaster. And he does have (Improved) Iron Will to give him better defenses versus casters in general.
To put things in perspective, he has 4 more Reflex and 6 more Will than his captains (CR 7 enemies).
As a fighter and not using the Weapon Master's or Armor Master's handbooks, yes, there's only so much he can do. But why does he need to have high defenses against everything? It looks like he's focused his defenses on having a high AC, which naturally leaves him more vulnerable to other types of attacks. It makes him no different than any other creature whose power comes from class levels.
That's possible. But the specific scenarios and corner-case situations are things like one-shotting the encounter. It doesn't help that everyone on the forums talks about the "rocket tag" and how "optimized" parties one round every encounter. In other words, if I let things play out as intended by all accounts I wouldn't like it.
I've also spent the last dozen years building custom content in the Neverwinter Nights RPG (from Bioware in 2002) and released several projects for the public to play. Engaging and challenging combat is an area of serious interest to me, more so than it is for most people. I'd be bored just setting up easy encounters for people to steamroll.
One-shotting encounters is going to happen. Even if you build the perfect encounter to provide the PCs with several rounds of challenging combat, 1's and 20's will find a way to spoil it. As someone who runs a homebrew campaign and has to build every encounter from the ground up, I understand it can be frustrating to spend hours designing the perfect foe to challenge the PCs only for it to roll a 1 on a Saving Throw and be completely defeated before it even gets a turn. I know I certainly get frustrated when that happens. But that's just the nature of the game. Trying to orchestrate everything like you were directing a movie is a mistake.
So it's ok if the chieftain is particularly vulnerable to the sorcerer's spells. Maybe the next major foe is a monk whose high touch AC, high saves, evasion, and spell resistance will make the sorcerer pull his hair out in frustration. It's perfectly fine for certain characters to shine in certain fights as long as everything evens out over time.
If you would like a very simple solution Have him get the trait that gives 1 pint of metamagic adjust. (Already recommended)
Have him take the metamagic elemental spell (acid) that will get him around most immunities.
Have him buy two (relatively expensive for this level but worth it) metamagic rods: Empower (lesser) Dazing (lesser) both from the core or advanced player guide. These will really help him feel more effective in combat and won't break your restrictions.
I do want to say though I'm playing an archery inquisitor at level 8 right now and I'm often dealing around 90 damage per round and the only archery feats I have are point blank and precise. If A blaster sorcerer is killing your encounters (and this one isn't) either you are doing something wrong or your other players aren't pulling their weight.
If a blaster sorcerer is out of control, you are an adult and you can ask him to tone it down. I should point out that your player is not out of control so the hysterics are unnecessary. If you want to solve the problem in game: make multiple sets of enemies and spread them out, then make multiple encounters per day. Multiple encounters in the same day is hard for anyone spamming high level spells. Even sorcerers.
I have a level 8 with a really big sword. He only makes 1 attack a round, and it kinda likely to hit at only +15, but when he hits he deals 93 damage.
my numbers for the lv8 martial were based off of my lv10 characters. a bloodrager paladin and a bloodrager fighter.
BP has smited raging Power attack +1 furious nodachi +24/+19 1D10+33 15-20/x2 which is 92.59 DPR against your warlord on a hasted full attack.
BF has Power Attack +2 furious lucerne hammer +26/+21 1D12+34 which is 91.43 DPR against your warlord on a hasted full attack. Enemies that are =CR die really fast. Because of your MAX HP rule it will take 2 turns to solo your warlord with these. Under normal rules of 99HP They can possibly 1 round him.
And remember your warlord has CR17 AC. Against more standard AC of 24 for CR 10 DPR is BF = 121.20 and BP = 137.64. And these are fairly straight forward builds. Nothing particularly tricky or gimmicky about them.
These are the kinds of number DPR character's put out. Thus having a sorcerer lv8 do 80-100 damage on a failed save is putting them in the same tier. These are the kinds of numbers people are comparing against for a blaster to be matching.
Why should he melt multiple enemies which are individually just as powerful as he is? He's CR 8.
I can at least answer this.
He should be able to do this because he can only do it 4 or so times a day. Just spread your forces out and all worries about him obliterating encounters will be moot.
trade out a level of fighter for barbarian/bloodrager and change the +2 weapon to a +1 furious, right there you've got a pretty nice boost to accuracy and damage even with losing out on GWF. +2 to attack and +4 damage.
Now trade normal armor training for a mutagen with the mutation warrior archetype. That's just 1 simple archetype and now you have +2 more to attack and +3 more to damage. Total of +4 attack and +7 damage over the numbers you gave.
Now being two levels down you are missing out on +2 bab and being able to pick up the greater weapon focus we lost for the rage dip and +3 worth of weapon training since you don't yet have the money for the gloves of dueling putting the total difference to +10 attack and +10 damage. Putting your build to +26/+26/+21 2d6+33 without furious focus. What's that? those number are like really close as what I gave!
Trade out a level of paladin for bloodrager and change the +2 to the +1 furious and have a charisma headband and you have a pretty nice boost to attack and damage. And the paladin having a 15-20 crit range makes for a pretty good boost in DPR. +4 to attack and +3 damage.
Now level him up for 2 bab and 2 damage per smite and we get +6 attack and +5 damage for +23/+23/+18 2d6+33. What's that? Again really close to my numbers!
And since he's a HIGH AC enemy, the attack boosts do far more than the damage boosts to boost DPR.
And we haven't even gotten into some of the crazy or more obscure magic items that I've heard people use to make my numbers seems a little lack luster.
A fight against yourself is a 50% chance of winning or losing. Did you roll high on init? you win! did they? you lose :(
These BF and BP could probably kill themselves in 1 round. A DPR character kills things REALLY FAST.
This is why fights last only 2 or 3 rounds when you have good characters and is called rocket tag. You need to deflate martial power for them to not kill everything, which makes Save or Die spells even stronger relatively, since they can still end a fight in 1 round.
If you want long combats, you need lots of houserules or characters that don't have good numbers.
the sorcerer should be on pace DPR with other DPR character's since he is one.
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It sounds like most typical encounters are over in a round from what I'm hearing. That doesn't really sound like a challenge.
then you have a very linear idea of encounters.
I'd also mention that the advice I read (from quite a few sites) when deciding to run a Pathfinder campaign was "Stick with CRB only for the first campaign." I decided to be ambitious and allowed another pair of books.
please for the love of god stop telling me about all people's anecdotal evidence that supports your argument. Especially when its deeply miss guided.
Hmmm Harr good job I'm only using balanced spells from the core rulebook the best balanced book, how will we take out this bandit camp with a CR 8 leader I wonder.
Cast's invisibility on party member, casts invisibility on self, take cover in bushes 180ft from bandit camp. Cast Magic Jar on lookout. leaving my body with my invisible buddy, proceed to take out every single member of camp through mass chaotic fights and body hopping. whilst friend guards/hides body.
Jee wizz good job I stuck to that super balanced list of options. How do you feel friends, Monk and Rogue? Oh like the weakest most poorly balanced classes in the game? How can that be? You're in the super duper core book!
But I suppose I could "untie" their hands. If I did, though, I'd be raising the stats on just about everything and just build NPCs by completely different rules than PCs (like how bestiary enemies are built). I did that in NWN. I could do it here. But I was trying to stick to the rules.
this is false you can build NPCs however you like giving your PCs options to make the style of play they want to use playable does not effect this.
I read about people doing that constantly. About how parties take apart APL+5 encounters without breaking a sweat and how GMs need to massively up everything to not make the campaign a cakewalk. I was trying to avoid the need for that.
what does that matter? you know your party right? you know what they're gonna do, stop listening to other peoples horror stories and enjoy your own damn game.
Which is a spell not even in Ultimate Combat/Magic/Equipment, it seems. It also seems to do 10d6 at level 10, 15d6 at level 15, and 20d6 at level 20. It's certainly weaker below level 10 but, if I'm reading it correctly, seems to scale oddly well.
Am I talking to a brick wall?
your CL is 2 higher with your spell specialization. Welcome to 10D6 force damage, or blood havok + Orc bloodline. 10D6+20 Jee wizz that was certainly a tricky mental exercise.
Let me clarify: is 100+ on a spell at level 8 reasonable (on a spell with AoE potential)?
I am in the thread you don't need to clarify I can read. Furthermore your PC is doing lightning bolt the AoE is s~$$e.
Are you referring to this post? Had to go back and figure out what you might mean, think I missed that earlier.
I'm not sure how it took up the most space of any one post on the page, directed at you.
At level 4 they killed 21 demons in a single massive battle. At the same level they killed over 30 orcs in one battle. I expect the PCs to kill things. The question is how FAST the PCs can kill things.
some level 4 PCs killed some 1/3 creatures? Jee wizz thats amazing. Besides the point however, which is your PCs should be good at killing things relevant to their level.
Why should he melt multiple enemies which are individually just as powerful as he is? He's CR 8.
Do you enjoy deleting large portions of my comments or did you just not like the look of the words? I'll just put it back for you.
Others he won't be able to do his trick on at all if you constantly through big clumps of things that a player is good at killing big clumps of then said player will seem OP. This seems obvious to me.
the key bit in case this isn't obvious is he won't be able to do this against everything, things will be immune to magic, things will be immune to lightning, things will have good saves and evasion.
And just to expand that since you're thinking like a robot apparently.
How many CR8 encounters will you have? how many PCs do you expect to die vs NPCs and creatures?
PCs are meant to win. This isn't' call of Cthulu.
Oh and since you're so obsessed with anecdotes how many times have you heard CR is a poor representation of power and scaling? I know I've said it in your threads before I'm sure others will have. Why do you routinely neglect this fact?
I can at least answer this.
He should be able to do this because he can only do it 4 or so times a day. Just spread your forces out and all worries about him obliterating encounters will be moot.
he couldn't even do that the guy is casting lightning bolt .-.
I'm bewildered over the argument raging here. Why are we throwing around numbers for damage? He's doing 8d6+8 at CL 8, before metamagic. That should suffice, given a reasonable chance that the GM will throw multiple foes at the party and assuming that he has plans to deal with energy resistance, saves, and SR. That is, he should come close enough to keeping up with a martial in damage PER ROUND to count, even though it's not damage per target. (Because the martial focuses on one foe, while the blaster has to spread it out.)
OTOH, the blaster should also have a few spells that might help the party at a point outside of combat, when the martial can't help at all. It's good to be different, isn't it?
This player's big problem is simple. It's not the damage he does to any one target -- that doesn't tell you DPR for a blaster. No, it's the shape that his preferred AoE comes in. To get in decent DPR, he has to talk his various targets into lining up in a 5-foot-wide line. Right. Which means that he has to be able to switch to cones or radiuses and still do the same amount of damage, 8d6+8 base at CL 8. So how can he pull it off as a blue dragon sorcerer?
Or is the root of the argument a contention that he can't?
Right. But you've been getting advice that can help your player, too.
If you would like a very simple solution Have him get the trait that gives 1 pint of metamagic adjust. (Already recommended)
Have him take the metamagic elemental spell (acid) that will get him around most immunities.
Have him buy two (relatively expensive for this level but worth it) metamagic rods: Empower (lesser) Dazing (lesser) both from the core or advanced player guide. These will really help him feel more effective in combat and won't break your restrictions.
The only issue I have with this advice is that it doesn't help the player get his +1/CL bonus damage with Fireball. And Fireball is the only spell I know of that has a decent shape to hit lots of foes, and comes in early enough to be useful. (Both when you get it, which is now for this player, and when you're adapting it with metamagic, and looking to raise the level.)
Would the player retroactively switch bloodlines? Is there a personal attachment to Blue Draconic?
If he switched to Red Draconic, he could take advantage of the way that Elemental Spell is worded. It still seems cheesy to me that a Red Draconic sorcerer can turn a Fireball into an Acidball or indeed a Voltageball without affecting the descriptor, and thus still get his bonus damage on it while avoiding energy resistance, but there it is.
Or would he be interested in Marid? That does give up the +1/CL damage altogether, of course. And he's high enough level that he's going to have a better alternative to the Marid's Frost Ray nearly all the time. But the rec I've seen of throwing around Rimed Iceballs looks like fun!
Would you allow that extensive a rewrite at this stage?
The primary argument has been that the sorcerer's damage on a failed save should be in the same region as a damage character's damage. If your damage characters don't put out any damage in favorable conditions then it's fine that your sorcerer also does no damage with favorable conditions.
Personally I don't think that an archetype and dipping for rage is tricky or gimmicky. Sorry that you think dipping for rage on a beatstick or taking an archetype is "tricky and gimmicky"
It's not like the Monk1, ninja 2, paladin 4, bloodrager1 that at lv8 has the attack routine of +21/+21/+21/+21/+16 for 1d10+25 on a smited hasted power attack full attack.
Or A titan fighter 1, bloodrager 4, WP 3 that has an impact furious greatsword worshiping gorum to VS on a charge with his effective Gargantuan Greatsword having 12d6+21 with his vital strike and using furious finish to deal max damage with that VS and then just taking 1d6 non-lethal damage rather than needing to drop out of rage.
Or a mutagenic mauler Brawler 2 Master of many styles monk 1 Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy Abyssal bloodrager2 Eldritch Guardian Brawler Fighter 3 That does +16/+16/+11/+11 1d6+22 on power attack punches.
or the Psychic Searcher Oracle 2 Medium 4 spiritualist 1 that has CHA to almost everything and gets a + 10 to all charisma based rolls and adds 1d6 to lots of rolls and 1d6+3 to failed rolls. So with 1 rank in diplomacy you have +21+1d6 and if that fails add 1d6+3 to make it a success.
These I'd consider tricky/gimmicky.
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This is an odd place to enter the discussion, but if you trust your players to not pull crazy optimization stunts, then why are you using all of these house rules at all? They probably aren't needed.
I play a Draconic (Red) Sorcerer for PFS (level 13 now), so I have a fair amount of experience with the basic damage tier we're talking about. I never had any crazy caster-level boosting feats or anything like that. The sorcerer uses almost all Core book material. By level 7 (so close to the level 8 tier that's been under discussion) I had a Rod of Lesser Empower. I think I only wiped out an entire encounter on my own once (which was a little embarrassing and the encounter was not built well).
The highest damage I ever did with an Empowered Fireball was 75 (no save). None of those fireballs ever wiped out an encounter. Sometimes it killed enemies outright and sometimes it didn't. Those events were rare, happened first at level 9 and required my d6 to roll very well. I often didn't even get Empowered Fireballs off in the first place. The circumstances are fairly specific. You have to have an area that is clear of allies (the Fireballs hurt too much to risk it), you have to have the rod already in hand and you have to start your turn with line of sight to the area. In theory that sounds easy, but in practice it doesn't happen all THAT often. My character was powerful, but not disruptively so. In one case, I saved the party with one of those Fireballs against enemies they were otherwise struggling to handle (our initial Greater Invisibility Rogue plan does NOT work on Earth Elementals).
My full-attack equivalent against one enemy was Scorching Ray. Either 4d6+4 or 6d6+6 Empowered, so 54 average if both rays hit and are Empowered. With Point-Blank and Precise, hitting was not quite a sure thing, especially against crazy Dex guys like Air Elementals and such.
Often, my action was better spent casting Haste or something like Enervation into Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement. A *lot* of my spells went toward buffing the party out of combat with Heroism and such. One of my favorite tricks was to take the two Rangers I was frequently playing with and Dimension Door them into a flank against a Wizard. Good fun. Fear (a bloodline spell) is a better spell than I gave it credit for, but is exceptionally hard to use if you have any concerns about chaining encounters together.
In my view, the basic Wizard Fireballs are rarely worth throwing. 10d6 damage from a level 10 PC Wizard is kind of eh. You need Draconic bloodline or Evocation school to make it something worth doing with any regularity in the first place. I'm not as sure what to make of your decision to increase monster HP by 50% though. That would change a LOT of my internal calculations about the value of playing a blaster at all. It seems to me that a blaster should at least have a shot at taking out an enemy in one go if the rare circumstance of a failed save & a high roll vs no defenses comes together.
If you trust your players all of this effort to modify the game is probably not worth it and carries more risks than I would be comfortable with personally.
Just to backtrack for a minute on this thread: how does giving monsters (or players, for that matter) bonus HP fix the issue of "rocket tag?" By the time that concept comes into play, HP is next to AC in terms of uselessness. When enemy casters are slinging spells that will incapacitate you instantly on a failed save, HP won't help one lick.
Anyway, blasting is simply not a good damage option. Sorry to say. Honestly, if you want to do something relevant with blasting, I'd recommend just switching over to the Words of Power system. It's utterly horrific UNLESS you are trying to make a blaster, necromancer, or non-Summoner summoner.
OMG, what you can do as a spontaneous blaster with Words of Power...
all words of power seems to do is make the game more complicated with no actual benefits i wouldn't touch that thing with a 10 foot pollJust to backtrack for a minute on this thread: how does giving monsters (or players, for that matter) bonus HP fix the issue of "rocket tag?" By the time that concept comes into play, HP is next to AC in terms of uselessness. When enemy casters are slinging spells that will incapacitate you instantly on a failed save, HP won't help one lick.
Anyway, blasting is simply not a good damage option. Sorry to say. Honestly, if you want to do something relevant with blasting, I'd recommend just switching over to the Words of Power system. It's utterly horrific UNLESS you are trying to make a blaster, necromancer, or non-Summoner summoner.
Not really, for a Spontaneous caster. The limit is low enough to not be too complicated for blasting. Plus, it lets you change blast shapes for using not-well-supported elements (such as lightning [or acid... grumble]) at earlier levels.
And my players aren't trying to pull "optimization" stunts like that in the first place.
Then, I concur with Arillia Kaenath: your house-rules are probably not needed.
Anyway, you can try this: « increase the damage dice by two steps for blast spells ». d4s become d8s, d6s become d10s, and so on.
No trick, no gimmick, no extra sourcebook, no optimization of any sort. Just plain and simple damage boost. This should help your sorcerer without out-damaging the rest of the party.
'I can't let them pick these options they're broken and will ruin the game, cause one time one sorcerer in another game ruined my fun!'
'My players aren't going to brake and ruin the game! Don't be so ridiculous as to multi-class for a strong character!'
uhum >.>
I still remember my WoP blaster fondly, years later. What she could do... It's the metawords, the ability to pile several different spell effects into one standard action, and the variable targets that are so powerful. To the OP: if you really truly want to help your player out, and you're willing to allow a reboot of the character, show him Words of Power and this guide.
For one thing, it would solve his problem of needing a radius for his electricity damage quickly & thoroughly. And give him a decently powered Electric Ray, as well. And give him a Wall of Current right away, too. All for one Word Known! These are all a smaller area and/or closer range than traditional spells, I grant you. But for a spontaneous caster... oh, the flexibility... and then he throws in other effects as part of all of the above... and adds meta words... I'm getting light-headed, just remembering.
It does take its own system mastery, though.
{EtA: And an added book -- Ultimate Magic. Drat!}
... He needs the feat Elemental Spell (electricity) and a NON-electricity blasting spell per spell level -- especially Fireball. ... And then you get to rods for other metamagic feats like Maximize Spell to boost the damage.
No reason you can't use a rod even if you have the feat. It's nice to be able to use those 1st level spell slots for electric magic missiles (each doing 1d4+2). And a lesser elemental rod is only 3K. Pile it on.
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Did an enemy wizard ever use this against you?
No. I'd have been fine with it if they did, but remember that this is PFS play: the scenarios aren't written with any specific set of players in mind. Also, if you meet an enemy wizard in Organized Play they are typically WAY more powerful than their mooks...level +2-3 over the party (let alone the mooks) at least. It would be a suboptimal tactic for them.
I mean, if you're fighting 8 CR 6 foes (a CR 12 encounter) you're going to do 50% of their HP against most of them in a single standard action. Half of a "hard" encounter already gone.
I mean, sure...if you imagine an encounter that is *designed* for a blaster arcane caster to destroy, they will probably destroy it. I disagree with the rules or anyone else that eight CR 6 enemies are a proper encounter for a level 10 party, though: those are mooks and window dressing for a real encounter. Even then, those mooks would have to be clumped up VERY tightly for a Fireball to hit them all. 20' radius is not all that large and not all that easy to target with.
How powerful of an enemy, though? Should a blaster have a chance to kill a Demon Lord at the end of a campaign in one shot if the Demon Lord failed his save and somehow had his defenses stripped? And let's put the question in reverse -- under what circumstances do you think it's fair for you to be killed in one go by an enemy?
Absolutely, yes. Back up a bit because your example is insane. How did a Demon Lord randomly lose all their defenses? Did the party trick them into going into a position that makes them insanely weak (not easy to do)? Did all of the other members spend their actions stripping the Demon Lord of their defenses? Both of those conditions would make a Sorcerer having a chance of destroying a Demon Lord in one shot totally OK. (I don't know what happened to all of a Demon Lord's HP though. Even a big Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireball shouldn't be able to do enough damage to take one of those out. This is a really pathetic Demon Lord.)
For the record, real demons do not laugh at my Fireball damage because I don't cast it on them. The spell resistance, good saves and innate resistance make it not worth the time.
As for your question about the reverse, I really can only laugh. This HAPPENS. Reference my statement above about a typical wizard encounter being higher level than you. I've seen a party hit with an Empowered Cone of Cold before they could act and were all still clustered together. Took my character (a Wizard in that case) out in one shot. The rest of the party was severely damaged. We won anyway. That's what enemy Wizard encounters are like, and I LOVE those fights. In another instance, my sorcerer at level 11 was hit by a CL 13 Disintegrate. If I hadn't made my save, my character would've been worse-than-dead. That was fair play.
That is what mid-high level play in Pathfinder is like, at least some of the time. It can get a lot worse/more unfair. Your expectations for this game are really weird if you think any of those things are a problem.
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I mean, sure...if you imagine an encounter that is *designed* for a blaster arcane caster to destroy, they will probably destroy it. I disagree with the rules or anyone else that eight CR 6 enemies are a proper encounter for a level 10 party, though: those are mooks and window dressing for a real encounter. Even then, those mooks would have to be clumped up VERY tightly for a Fireball to hit them all. 20' radius is not all that large and not all that easy to target with.
didn't you know? His favourite thing to do is create incredibly none representative squad examples to justify his opinions?
The sorc does more damage than the barb to this creature who's AC is 8 points higher than it should be for the recommended CR, therefore balanced DPS.How powerful of an enemy, though? Should a blaster have a chance to kill a Demon Lord at the end of a campaign in one shot if the Demon Lord failed his save and somehow had his defenses stripped? And let's put the question in reverse -- under what circumstances do you think it's fair for you to be killed in one go by an enemy?
So your opinion has now morphed into
Even if the party has stripped every relevant defence the enemy has I still don't want them to be able to efficiently kill the enemy?And for the record a blaster sorc can easily kill a demon lord in one round if they're appropaitly levelled and mythic.As can pretty much any mythic DPS focused character.
To answer your question, I'd say it would be pretty fair to kill a PC if all their defenders had been stripped first.
Would you prefer they put some cotton on a stick and tap eachother? Would probably elememinate the rocket tag. Wouldn't be any fun at all but that doesn't seem to be the main concern anymore.
A "normal" caster that isn't blaster just casts 1 spells and wins the fight on a failed save. Plane shift, color spray, hold person, black tentacles, pits, etc.
The "true" way to play a caster is having high save DC's and then a crippling spell targeting each saving throw. And then pick the one that is most likely to win. This is why normal caster's don't blast, why waste spells doing inefficient HP damage when I can just win? You double or triple or quadruple HP? "true" caster's don't care and win in 1 turn still.
A "normal" caster that isn't blaster just casts 1 spells and wins the fight on a failed save. Plane shift, color spray, hold person, black tentacles, pits, etc.
The "true" way to play a caster is having high save DC's and then a crippling spell targeting each saving throw. And then pick the one that is most likely to win. This is why normal caster's don't blast, why waste spells doing inefficient HP damage when I can just win? You double or triple or quadruple HP? "true" caster's don't care and win in 1 turn still.
Ah yes, the No True Scottsman Fallacy.
Ah yes, the No True Scottsman Fallacy.A "normal" caster that isn't blaster just casts 1 spells and wins the fight on a failed save. Plane shift, color spray, hold person, black tentacles, pits, etc.
The "true" way to play a caster is having high save DC's and then a crippling spell targeting each saving throw. And then pick the one that is most likely to win. This is why normal caster's don't blast, why waste spells doing inefficient HP damage when I can just win? You double or triple or quadruple HP? "true" caster's don't care and win in 1 turn still.
Not at all.
1) Notice the "" around stuff indicating that something is up with those words.2) The way the wizard is currently viewed as the best build is the "god wizard" builds which are this. Dealing damage is the less effective way of winning for a wizard.
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personally man, you sound like you're WAY to much trying to micro-manage this game.
"The the blaster starts throwing SoS I'll just change the saves of the enemies to negate that plan too!"
Just stop trying to control your players and let them do their thing. Make your enemies and watch them get killed.
In PFS the enemies do have tactics blocks to follow, and they just never design a scenario with a lower level caster, if you see a caster it's always at your level or higher and is the main enemy of the fight.
And I agree, 8 level 7 enemies against a party lv 10 should be a pretty easy fight since each enemy is quite weak. A blaster doing half of their damage in a fireball is meaningless unless he can follow it up with another fireball before they leave fireball formation. The melee characters should be able to 1 round them and thus you bringing them to half didn't really help. If their HP is so high that they can't be 1 rounded by the martials then your fireball is likely even more meaningless.
And the point of things is, The GM controls what the enemies do. The enemies never need to know fireball or DD if the GM doesn't want to throw that at the party. Just cause someone can, and the player did, doesn't mean the enemies HAVE to.
And the majority of my characters can kill themselves in 1 round every level. Most DPR character's I've seen can 1 round me and I can 1 round them. That's what being a DPR is. You hit accurately and hard. And so if a caster is going to play that game they too need to be accurate and hit hard.
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@ the OP: Just a few remarks, please do not take offense.
Firstly, regarding the form:
I am willing to help you here, but the "quote-war" posting style is a real mood killer. Could you please write your posts in a more synthetic manner?
Secondly, regarding those comments:
I'll just adjust monster stats/tactics/numbers for enemies to remain a challenge as needed.
[...]
I'll hammer down individual spells if needed
[...]
Then I'll adjust the amount of enemies, their saves, their other defenses, or whatever until that isn't the case.
Not each encounter is supposed to be challenging. Some of them are supposed to be easily overcome by the PCs, to grant the players the feeling that their characters have gained power.
If the fighter gains +X to HIT and +Y to DMG from a level-up, then granting the opposition +X to AC and +3Y to HP negates the effect of leveling. Same remark for the caster who get better spells and bonus to DC... If you symmetrically boost the defenses of the opposition, it becomes pointless to level-up.As a DM, you can/shall offer some "cheap" encounters, so everybody can have his money time...
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You don't consider raw HP to be a relevant defense vs blasting spells?
No not really, if I make a blaster for myself then in the higher levels (15+) if my blaster isn't doing enough damage to one round an enemy if I get through all the defenses I don't feel that they're a particularly effective blaster. Before said levels I expect to two round things If I get passed their defenses but you're talking about Demon Lords so I'm assuming I'm over level 15.
There is Saves, Sr and Elemental resistance/immunities to get through before a blaster hits their mark, if after getting through all that they aren't doing good damage what was the point in bothering to get through it?
Odd as it may sound, I suspect we can get something between nuclear explosions and cotton-tipped sticks.
We already did, you didn't like it.
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Magic Missile doesn't have an electricity descriptor, it won't benefit from the bloodline.
But if you change it to electricity damage with the elemental spell feat, doesn't it gain the electricity descriptor?
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That's kind of my point. You said "It seems to me that a blaster should at least have a shot at taking out an enemy in one go if the rare circumstance of a failed save & a high roll vs no defenses comes together." And now you're saying "even if you roll high, the Demon Lord fails the save, and the Demon Lord has no elemental resistances (for some reason)...the Demon Lord should still have the HP to survive one spell."
And that's why I asked "How powerful of an enemy, though?"
We've "established" that a level 20 caster shouldn't ever one shot a Demon Lord. On the flip side, he should definitely one-shot a CR 5 mob. So at what point should we go from "Able to usually one-shot" to "not usually able to one-shot?" What's the breakpoint?
No. Stop. Your example was insane. I specifically said so. You don't then get to go saying that we've "established" anything.
You were the one who went from talking about normal on-CR encounters to pulling out a CR 27-28 critter that had miraculously lost all of its defenses. And now you are suddenly drawing lessons from that ludicrous proposition and imposing them on general gameplay.
You are not arguing in good faith, sir.
Sidenote: If ignorance is your problem, I'll use Treerazer as an example. He's a CR 25 Nascent Demon Lord. Lower than the base creature for your example. He has 574 HP. No, I do not expect to one-shot Treerazer because, as I said earlier, that is insane. But you don't get to draw any real conclusions from this because CR 25 is off the charts.
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You are not arguing in good faith, sir.
You've not been in many of Balkoth's threads have you?
Sidenote: If ignorance is your problem, I'll use Treerazer as an example. He's a CR 25 Nascent Demon Lord. Lower than the base creature for your example. He has 574 HP. No, I do not expect to one-shot Treerazer because, as I said earlier, that is insane. But you don't get to draw any real conclusions from this because CR 25 is off the charts.
For the record dealing 574 damage is not that hard for Mythic PCs which are the level of PCs that should be fighting treerazer.
You are not arguing in good faith, sir.You've not been in many of Balkoth's threads have you?
Isn't this the guy who said Point Blank Master was mandatory for ranged builds and that it was overpowered because it removed one of the weaknesses of ranged builds?
Look, I'm not going to be able to go over most of the long quote trains OP has left, but I'd just like to state that this seems like a bit of a mess on their part, exasperated by build limitations put in place by house rules.
OP, seriously, I've never had a single blaster either in my game nor that I have actually played even come close to one shotting anything. The characters that have put out enough damage to nearly kill a creature has always been martials.
As an example:
The only reason she lasted more than one round was because of regen, Opportune Parry and Riposte and Cut from the Air saving her from multiple attacks from both the barbarian, the fighter/slayer and the gunslinger, all of whom would have demolished her had she not had those defences. Only the barbarian was able to land hits. Oh, and 5-foot steps along walls. That too. Halflings are short and she was Large. (They were all halflings, and some...'kender'. Long story...)
What killed her was an occultist's bestow curse delivered via familiar, reducing her Charisma by 6, dropping her remaining health to 0. The only real offensive caster didn't even need direct damage to win that fight. He didn't have any to begin with, and undead were his 'worst matchup' according to him.
yeah same guy.