
Bober |
Hello!
I'm building my first gestalt character for Rappan Athuk. I'll be the 6th player, and from what I've been told we have plenty of damage deals but little support behind them.
So I'm thinking to go for a full support character, to boost my allies whichever way possible.
One one side, I will probably go full Bard. Not sure if I should take an archetype, but as of now I don't think I will.
On the other side, I have NO CLUE. I was suggested 1 Paladin, 2 Monk, 1 Oracle, for some bonuses, but after that I'm not sure where to go. I'm thinking maybe Chavalier, to give teamwork feats to everyone, or Sorcerer to expand my casting capabilities further, but I'm not sure yet... Mostly I don't want to risk to run out of stuff to do, forcing the team to stop too often to recharge my spells, or spending rounds doing nothing other than being a liability...
I've never played Rappan Athuk, but I know it's VERY unforgiving, nor have I ever built a gestalt character., so I could really use your help.
So, what would you get on a 7h level gestalt character, assuming on one side I'll go full bard?

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Life Oracle seems like the natural choice. Maybe Pei Zin, but probably Spirit Guide. Spirit Guide (Life) gets a second set of (1+Cha) channels at 7th. Consider Milani, Irori, or Pharasma for Beacon of Hope, Ki Channel, or Fateful Channel respectivley.
If you count crowd control as support, Mesmerist is another nice option that'd be more active. Mesmeric Mirror is also quite an effective party defense after level 5.

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Sorcerer with the Imperious bloodline would be good for adding to those Morale and Competence bonuses, but you could also get that through Eldritch Heritage so... I'm thinking a certain kind of channel-focused Hospitaler Paladin could be really effective what with your high Charisma. Take a gander at Variant Channeling; there are some really good support ones so that you can support as you heal. Battle/Wrath, Luck, Protection and Strength seem good for a Bard.
If you can also get some form of Mascot familiar for Aiding purposes, that would be really cool too.

Dave Justus |

Basically their are two ways to think about Gestalt, either using it to shore up weaknesses or using it to gain synergy. Sometimes, you can manage both but usually you have to choose.
Generally speaking I find shoring up weaknesses to result in a more 'fun' character.
With the idea of a bard on one side, you don't have a good Fort save, don't have full Bab, and only have 6 (not 9) potential levels of spells. Solving any two of those is fairly easy, but you aren't going to find full Bab and full casting together in a class. So probably the first thing to think about is would you prefer a full bab option or 9 level casting, and given that choice try and find something good that will take advantage of good CHR if possible. With the exception of Cavalier, full Bab classes don't offer a lot in the way of support, and their support tends to pale in comparison to what a 9 level caster can offer.
The only 9 level caster that has good fort save is the cleric, not ideal with CHR based character, but as a support caster you don't need high DCs and 14s or 16s in your casting classes would be plenty. You will have a ton of spells so you will always have something you can do. The cleric will let you function not only as buffing support but emergency medic as well. I'd probably be looking at the feather subdomain for the nice perception bonus and an animal companion I'd use strictly as a mount to move around the battlefield (especially useful for the emergency medic aspect.)
If you wanted more of a combat and support guy I'd go a slightly different way. Rather than bard, I'd go with a cleric with the evangelist archetype (get your bardsong back at the cost of some channel energy basically) and pair that with a Zen Archer Monk. You would spend a round or two in the support role, and then fire off arrows.

Bober |
Sorcerer with the Imperious bloodline would be good for adding to those Morale and Competence bonuses, but you could also get that through Eldritch Heritage so... I'm thinking a certain kind of channel-focused Hospitaler Paladin could be really effective what with your high Charisma. Take a gander at Variant Channeling; there are some really good support ones so that you can support as you heal. Battle/Wrath, Luck, Protection and Strength seem good for a Bard.
If you can also get some form of Mascot familiar for Aiding purposes, that would be really cool too.
The Imperious bloodline gives the bonus only to me, which don't come much in handy to the rest of the team.
I love the 11th level ability of Hospitaliser Paladins, but before then it seems default-paladin is a safer bet.Basically their are two ways to think about Gestalt, either using it to shore up weaknesses or using it to gain synergy. Sometimes, you can manage both but usually you have to choose.
Generally speaking I find shoring up weaknesses to result in a more 'fun' character.
With the idea of a bard on one side, you don't have a good Fort save, don't have full Bab, and only have 6 (not 9) potential levels of spells. Solving any two of those is fairly easy, but you aren't going to find full Bab and full casting together in a class. So probably the first thing to think about is would you prefer a full bab option or 9 level casting, and given that choice try and find something good that will take advantage of good CHR if possible. With the exception of Cavalier, full Bab classes don't offer a lot in the way of support, and their support tends to pale in comparison to what a 9 level caster can offer.
The only 9 level caster that has good fort save is the cleric, not ideal with CHR based character, but as a support caster you don't need high DCs and 14s or 16s in your casting classes would be plenty. You will have a ton of spells so you will always have something you can do. The cleric will let you function not only as buffing support but emergency medic as well. I'd probably be looking at the feather subdomain for the nice perception bonus and an animal companion I'd use strictly as a mount to move around the battlefield (especially useful for the emergency medic aspect.)
If you wanted more of a combat and support guy I'd go a slightly different way. Rather than bard, I'd go with a cleric with the evangelist archetype (get your bardsong back at the cost of some channel energy basically) and pair that with a Zen Archer Monk. You would spend a round or two in the support role, and then fire off arrows.
First of all, thanks for the explanation! I think I'd rather go 9th level caster than full BAB. I'm looking into the Cleric domains right now. I like the feather subdomain perception bonus, but I'm not so sure about the Animal Companion. Wouldn't a small one be more useful? I don't think the dungeon has much space for a mount...

Dastis |

I think you would be best off Bard + Oracle
Logic
Martials have weak support compared to full caster so full caster
Cleric spell list has the best support spells. So oracle or cleric
I prefer to have to double cha class and spend what you would have on wis on con instead. Oracle mysteries provide very nice support abilities. Also double cha means you have more viable spells for both classes as your save dcs will be high

Melkiador |

I haven't considered Summoner. I'm guessing Unchained?
I'll ask confirmation, but as far as I know we don't have a summoner. I'll check it!
As a fan of summoners, I would not suggest playing one in such a large party. One round of combat is already going to take a long time, and even an extra prepared summoner will take a longer turn than normal. You probably want to stay away from pet classes entirely.
What's the party composition? A skald might be fun.

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Nitro~Nina wrote:Sorcerer with the Imperious bloodline would be good for adding to those Morale and Competence bonuses, but you could also get that through Eldritch Heritage so... I'm thinking a certain kind of channel-focused Hospitaler Paladin could be really effective what with your high Charisma. Take a gander at Variant Channeling; there are some really good support ones so that you can support as you heal. Battle/Wrath, Luck, Protection and Strength seem good for a Bard.
If you can also get some form of Mascot familiar for Aiding purposes, that would be really cool too.
The Imperious bloodline gives the bonus only to me, which don't come much in handy to the rest of the team.
I love the 11th level ability of Hospitaliser Paladins, but before then it seems default-paladin is a safer bet.
Nope!
If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd.
See! You get to improve your Bard-ness for everyone! Maybe not as often as you'd like though, which I do understand.

Bober |
I think you would be best off Bard + Oracle
Logic
Martials have weak support compared to full caster so full caster
Cleric spell list has the best support spells. So oracle or cleric
I prefer to have to double cha class and spend what you would have on wis on con instead. Oracle mysteries provide very nice support abilities. Also double cha means you have more viable spells for both classes as your save dcs will be high
I'll look into Oracle. Which curse and mystery would u suggest?
As a fan of summoners, I would not suggest playing one in such a large party. One round of combat is already going to take a long time, and even an extra prepared summoner will take a longer turn than normal. You probably want to stay away from pet classes entirely.What's the party composition? A skald might be fun.
You are probably right. I don't know the exact class combinations of the party yet, but I know they have a Magus/Wizard, a main Mesmerist, a main Zen Archer, a Monk/Paladin + other stuff going on a tank build, and I think another warrior/paladin-something.. I asked and was told they are pretty focused on damage and tanks, and have little support. Which is why I'm coming in bard wise
Imperious Bloodline wrote:If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd.See! You get to improve your Bard-ness for everyone! Maybe not as often as you'd like though, which I do understand.
Must have misread it, thanks! It's interesting, but at 7th level I could only do it twice a day, which I assume means 2 rounds. Or am I mistaken?

Dave Justus |

I'm not so sure about the Animal Companion. Wouldn't a small one be more useful? I don't think the dungeon has much space for a mount...
Support bard and caster is actually stronger with a small character than a medium on usually. Basically you are getting a better change to hit and a less chance to be hit in exchange for doing less weapon damage, if you aren't going to deal weapon damage that is a pretty good trade. That would let you use a medium mount (which would also overcome the issue of reduced speed.)
If you are going to be medium sized anyway, then the animal companion 'narrow frame' is a pretty good one.
Really though it doesn't matter a whole lot. The purpose of the mount with this build is to give you better mobility (while not being quite as squishy as a purchased animal.) If you are in a situation where it isn't going to help, don't use it. Your build doesn't depend on it, and it isn't designed for dealing damage anyway (I wouldn't be wasting a feat on boon companion for instance.) In situations where it is useful, i.e. large open areas it can be quite a literally be a life saver, if the move of your mount lets you get to a companion for breath of life when your own movement wouldn't have sufficed.
One huge advantage of a support caster in being mounted is action economy. Being able to move (via your mount) and perform a move equivalent and a standard action can be pretty impressive. One particular tactic I like is having most condition removal spells be scrolls rather then memorized, especially for the rarer ones. With a handy haversack, I can retrieve my scroll, get next to an afflicted character and cast the spell from the scroll all in a single round.

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Nitro~Nina wrote:Must have misread it, thanks! It's interesting, but at 7th level I could only do it twice a day, which I assume means 2 rounds. Or am I mistaken?
Imperious Bloodline wrote:If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd.See! You get to improve your Bard-ness for everyone! Maybe not as often as you'd like though, which I do understand.
Twice per day for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier each time.

Ryan Freire |

Bard/hunter and TRULY have the most terrifying animal companion ever created.
Edit: Bard hunter has the added benefit of providing a vehicle for any melee who might benefit from dipping into some of the lower tier teamwork feats like Paired Opportunists or Outflank

Louise Bishop |

I Recommend Bard//Spirit Guide Oracle
9th Level Divine to help fix all problems
6th Level Arcane with some of the best buffs in the game
All the skills you could desire
If you want to get Power Gamey you could Do a CHA build. Way of the Shooting Star for attack and damage, Nobel Scion of War for CHA to Initiative, CHA for Reflex and AC. This is one of those Super SAD builds.
You could also go Bard//Paladin
You will be able to heal for sure and Smite is great. CHA to saves.
But your in Light armor. Your stuck as LG which you can't use Way of the Shooting star. But with smite and Full BaB it more than makes up for that fact.
Bard//Dragon Unmonk is a great combo as well if you want to be awesome at punching people in the face while buffing your party. Good CHA focus.

james knowles |

Bard (buff party)/Witch (de-buff enemies) is a favorite combo of mine.
Sounds like your party is light on the skill monkey/sneaky bastard side, so perhaps Rogue (unchained of course) would be a wise choice [not all support happens in combat]. The more traps you avoid, the better, and Rappan Athuk is loaded with traps.
If 3pp is allowed, go Time Thief, for roguish support...and cool time manipulating abilities.

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The only 9 level caster that has good fort save is the cleric, not ideal with CHR based character,
Not quite.
Druid gets a good Fort save and comes in Cha-based. When gestalting with bard you don't benefit from the Feyspeaker's increased number of skills, but you do keep your 3/4 BAB.
Healing is not as good as a cleric since you don't get Channel and are missing some of the condition removal spells. But you do get some pretty good buffs from the druid casting - I'm a huge fan of Barkskin - and being less MAD may be worth it depending on how you're handling stats. If you've got at least one paladin in the group then they can do some healing, and you will probably have a pretty good UMD for scrolls.