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I have no problem with the theory debate, but I have no issue with the suicide bomber order being followed in this scenario.
Any other mechanics you think I should be looking at to tweak?
You're basically blending the Falling Object rules with combat rules to form a new set of rules for kamikaze attacks. Maybe something like this:
- Treat the dive bomb as a charge, so +2 attack/-2 AC.
- Creatures with reach still get an AoO if they are aware of the birds (not necessarily a given, but a Perception check is reasonable). Maybe +2 to the bird's AC due to speed? (thus canceling the AC penalty from the charge).
- To make the attack the bird has to enter your square, so I think even creatures without reach get an AoO as soon as it leaves your threatened zone to enter your square.
- They can dive/fly faster than they would fall (flying birds are more aerodynamic then falling corpses), so maybe treat it like a Power Attack. So -1 attack/+2 damage (this makes intuitive sense, too: the faster you are going, the harder it is to hit a target precisely).
- I also agree with the suggestion to add the Death from Above feat rules, so another +5 to hit. But the attack direction must be mostly vertical/downwards.
- I would not give them Flyby Attack, and if they had it for some reason, it would not apply. For this attack to work, movement has to end in the square of the target.
- This is bludgeoning damage and it's subject to DR.
- If the attack misses, and the target is on the ground, then they hit the ground and take impact damage. Because they are going faster than a fall, it's going to be more than 20d6, but that's irrelevant for a small eagle since min damage will destroy them.
- If the attack misses and the target is >= 5' above the ground, it's a fly check to avoid hitting the ground. Consider it collision avoidance (DC25) with a -8 penalty (due to speed, mimicing windstorm speed winds). For every additional 5' above the ground, subtract 10 from the DC. Or something. Note that it takes 10' of movement to make a 180 degree turn. Resolve that on the next round.
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Why not give the familiar a bag of holding stuffed with boulders and have him turn it upside down over the enemies?
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To me the idea of each eagle dealing 10D6 damage seems kinda illogical fron a mechanic point of view. I mean, 10D6 are above the damage dice from most huge and larger creatures. I just cannot picture how a single eagle might be able to cause that ammount of damage.
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To me the idea of each eagle dealing 10D6 damage seems kinda illogical fron a mechanic point of view. I mean, 10D6 are above the damage dice from most huge and larger creatures. I just cannot picture how a single eagle might be able to cause that ammount of damage.
It is based off of falling damage, which seems to have been misread.
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I have no problem with the theory debate, but I have no issue with the suicide bomber order being followed in this scenario.
Any other mechanics you think I should be looking at to tweak?
You're basically blending the Falling Object rules with combat rules to form a new set of rules for kamikaze attacks. Maybe something like this:
...
- Treat the dive bomb as a charge, so +2 attack/-2 AC.
- Creatures with reach still get an AoO if they are aware of the birds (not necessarily a given, but a Perception check is reasonable). Maybe +2 to the bird's AC due to speed? (thus canceling the AC penalty from the charge).
- To make the attack the bird has to enter your square, so I think even creatures without reach get an AoO as soon as it leaves your threatened zone to enter your square.
- They can dive/fly faster than they would fall (flying birds are more aerodynamic then falling corpses), so maybe treat it like a Power Attack. So -1 attack/+2 damage (this makes intuitive sense, too: the faster you are going, the harder it is to hit a target precisely).
- I also agree with the suggestion to add the Death from Above feat rules, so another +5 to hit. But the attack direction must be mostly vertical/downwards.
- I would not give them Flyby Attack, and if they had it for some reason, it would not apply. For this attack to work, movement has to end in the square of the target.
- This is bludgeoning damage and it's subject to DR.
- If the attack misses, and the target is on the ground, then they hit the ground and take impact damage. Because they are going faster than a fall, it's going to be more than 20d6, but that's irrelevant for a small eagle since min damage will destroy them.
- If the attack misses and the target is >= 5' above the ground, it's a fly check to avoid hitting the ground. Consider it collision avoidance (DC25) with a -8 penalty (due to speed, mimicing windstorm speed winds). For every additional 5' above the ground, subtract 10 from the
Very interesting points. I can definitely see working with some of this.
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To me the idea of each eagle dealing 10D6 damage seems kinda illogical fron a mechanic point of view. I mean, 10D6 are above the damage dice from most huge and larger creatures. I just cannot picture how a single eagle might be able to cause that ammount of damage.It is based off of falling damage, which seems to have been misread.
But the falling damage is caused to the falling creature, not to the creature that is hit by a falling object, isn't it?
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Ummn...eagles falling/dive bombing would not cause that much damage
Falling Objects
Table: Damage from Falling Objects
Object Size
Damage
Small
2d6
Medium
3d6
Large
4d6
Huge
6d6
Gargantuan
8d6
Colossal
10d6
Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.
Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.
Eagles are small and would do 4d6 damage if they were made of steel or rock. Feathers and flesh? Probably 2d6. And requires attack roll. Edit and a reflex save
They would take 20d6 damage.
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Maybe they are not eagles but rocs... made of steel.
Rocs fall. Everyone dies.
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You're basically blending the Falling Object rules with combat rules to form a new set of rules for kamikaze attacks. Maybe something like this:
...
- Treat the dive bomb as a charge, so +2 attack/-2 AC.
- Creatures with reach still get an AoO if they are aware of the birds (not necessarily a given, but a Perception check is reasonable). Maybe +2 to the bird's AC due to speed? (thus canceling the AC penalty from the charge).
- To make the attack the bird has to enter your square, so I think even creatures without reach get an AoO as soon as it leaves your threatened zone to enter your square.
- They can dive/fly faster than they would fall (flying birds are more aerodynamic then falling corpses), so maybe treat it like a Power Attack. So -1 attack/+2 damage (this makes intuitive sense, too: the faster you are going, the harder it is to hit a target precisely).
- I also agree with the suggestion to add the Death from Above feat rules, so another +5 to hit. But the attack direction must be mostly vertical/downwards.
- I would not give them Flyby Attack, and if they had it for some reason, it would not apply. For this attack to work, movement has to end in the square of the target.
Seems a bit complicated (too many considerations for the players and GM). I think it would work OK with a bit more abstraction. For example, a "kamikaze attack" could be:
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It seems to me that Gobo Horde is clearly correct about the damage. His result is also logical, insofar as the damage equates to getting hacked with a greatsword, as opposed to being rendered into ash by the most powerful magics in the land (with damage in the original post exceeding what massive monsters can achieve with their natural attacks).
Given you are content on the issue of suicidal summons, the last issue is the attach or save mechanic. To me, the simplest (and best) approach is the charge + high ground bonuses to a regular attack.
Nice and simple and consistent with the rule set.
I think it's great to encourage player creativity (and kudos for how you do that) , but athe end of the day your job is also to implement a level of balance. I think someone else said it first, but a good question to ask is how your players would react if you used this tactic against them first. I can't imagine they'd be thrilled to get TPK'd by divebombong eagles (as they very well might be via the original iteration of the idea).
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Seems a bit complicated (too many considerations for the players and GM). I think it would work OK with a bit more abstraction. For example, a "kamikaze attack" could be: (a bunch of good ideas)
Yeah, what you propose is a decent abstraction. The 1d6 figure is too low for damage though. Remember that falling object damage is doubled for falls from above 150', so it's at least 2d6 (2d6 / 2 for light * 2 for height/speed).
I still feel like an AoO should be possible. This is basically baseball (or cricket if the bird is British) if the target is aware of the bird. Easier than baseball, even, since the bird is larger and slower.
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It seems to me that Gobo Horde is clearly correct about the damage. His result is also logical, insofar as the damage equates to getting hacked with a greatsword, as opposed to being rendered into ash by the most powerful magics in the land (with damage in the original post exceeding what massive monsters can achieve with their natural attacks).
Given you are content on the issue of suicidal summons, the last issue is the attach or save mechanic. To me, the simplest (and best) approach is the charge + high ground bonuses to a regular attack.
Nice and simple and consistent with the rule set.
I think it's great to encourage player creativity (and kudos for how you do that) , but athe end of the day your job is also to implement a level of balance. I think someone else said it first, but a good question to ask is how your players would react if you used this tactic against them first. I can't imagine they'd be thrilled to get TPK'd by divebombong eagles (as they very well might be via the original iteration of the idea).
Yes. I had seen his post yesterday. Was well stated.
I agree that I would not hamper it with both an attack roll AND a save roll.
As I said to the other poster that sending this vs the players. If I just sprung it on them, yeah I bet they would be upset. If they knew well beforehand AND they also had access to the same tactic, I don't think they would be as upset, at least no more upset than someone gets when they have their PC get killed.
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Level 4 spell.
Full Round casting time
2-5 Targets
After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).
On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.
Over the years, I've reverse-engineered most spells in order to produce a system for re-constructing existing ones and building new ones. In the nomenclature of those house rules, your spell is as follows:
Bolt of force (2nd level) + Mass Effect Spell (1/3 levels; +3 levels) + Inexorable Evocation (+3 levels) + Irresistible Spell (+2 levels) + Ritual Spell (full round; -1 level) + Location-Specific Spell (outdoors under open sky only; -2 levels) = 7th level spell; 1d6 force damage/caster level, max. 20d6 (no save, no SR) to one target per 3 levels (must all be within Close range of you).
If you wanted it to deal Bludgeoning damage like a falling object (subject to damage reduction), you'd substitute energy mace (0 level) for bolt of force as the "seed" and stick all the same string of metamagic feats on it, ending up with a 5th level spell (max. damage 15d6).
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So what are folks thinking, now? That the eagles have to be summoned on the ground/clifftop/etc. and spend any necessary time getting to 200 ft up before they can dive-bomb?
And why a CMB? Which maneuver? Why not a simple ranged-touch attack? (At that -12.) After all, if the eagle simply touches the target, their weight gets dropped on said target. Either way, the ground gets dropped on the eagle, poor thing, but it may have urgent personal business to get back to.
{PS: I'm voting for good or evil eagles. Well, celestial or infernal eagles, or any others you can dredge up from other planes. Doing this with truly commanded-to-suicide eagles is a heinous act in my eyes, although let me hasten to add that I'm not necessarily talking about mandatory alignment shifts.}
Forgive me for sounding so curmudgeonly, but I'm sitting here on the sidelines figuring out GM-craft on a bad day (personal stuff).
@ bold...exactly,even eagles have business to attend to,it ain't just all flying.
I am uninterested in taking a side on whether this would be an Evil act or not. The summoned creature does not actually die so suicide is not actually real.
I like what I'm seeing about the damage done being just 2d6. It makes me a lot less itchy to figure out the rest.
But I am curious, nonetheless: Do the birds have to be summoned "at rest" and take to the air, or can they be summoned up high? And if birds can be, why not an oliphant?
Secondly, why would ordinary eagles not die the true death in this maneuver? Am I remember 3.5 stuff that material creatures that die while summoned just die? (That's why I voted for celestial/infernal versions, you see.) Did PF change this?
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But I am curious, nonetheless: Do the birds have to be summoned "at rest" and take to the air, or can they be summoned up high? And if birds can be, why not an oliphant?
Secondly, why would ordinary eagles not die the true death in this maneuver?
From the PRD on Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
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Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
So, no mid-air arrivals, and summoned creatures don't really die.
Also, another part that's relevant to the OP is the "Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands." I still maintain that a summoned creature will not blindly commit suicide as the basis for the attack. There's a fine line between attacking a superior foe and what is described in this thread. But the OP feels differently, so now we're just discussing mechanics.
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John Mechalas, thank you very much.
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Level 4 spell.
Full Round casting time
2-5 Targets
After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).
On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.Over the years, I've reverse-engineered most spells in order to produce a system for re-constructing existing ones and building new ones. In the nomenclature of those house rules, your spell is as follows:
Bolt of force (2nd level) + Mass Effect Spell (1/3 levels; +3 levels) + Inexorable Evocation (+3 levels) + Irresistible Spell (+2 levels) + Ritual Spell (full round; -1 level) + Location-Specific Spell (outdoors under open sky only; -2 levels) = 7th level spell; 1d6 force damage/caster level, max. 20d6 (no save, no SR) to one target per 3 levels (must all be within Close range of you).
If you wanted it to deal Bludgeoning damage like a falling object (subject to damage reduction), you'd substitute energy mace (0 level) for bolt of force as the "seed" and stick all the same string of metamagic feats on it, ending up with a 5th level spell (max. damage 15d6).
That is an interesting go at it.
I've sent an email to the player and am saying that the effect they are looking at is the equivalent to basically a 6th level spell.
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But I am curious, nonetheless: Do the birds have to be summoned "at rest" and take to the air, or can they be summoned up high? And if birds can be, why not an oliphant?
Secondly, why would ordinary eagles not die the true death in this maneuver?
From the PRD on Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
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Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
So, no mid-air arrivals, and summoned creatures don't really die.
Also, another part that's relevant to the OP is the "Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands." I still maintain that a summoned creature will not blindly commit suicide...
Yes, Called creatures are actually there and would actually die, summoned ones are not.
I certainly like the theory discussion on if they would actually do a suicidal mission like this. I didn't want to digress from the scope of this thread.
Personally, I don't see enough of a difference between a direct suicidal act like this and sending a wave of summoned monsters against a creature and watching them die. As soon as they get hit once, if they survive, then they should see their imminent death and flee. 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another.
Level 4 spell.
Full Round casting time
2-5 Targets
After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).
On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.Over the years, I've reverse-engineered most spells in order to produce a system for re-constructing existing ones and building new ones. In the nomenclature of those house rules, your spell is as follows:
Bolt of force (2nd level) + Mass Effect Spell (1/3 levels; +3 levels) + Inexorable Evocation (+3 levels) + Irresistible Spell (+2 levels) + Ritual Spell (full round; -1 level) + Location-Specific Spell (outdoors under open sky only; -2 levels) = 7th level spell; 1d6 force damage/caster level, max. 20d6 (no save, no SR) to one target per 3 levels (must all be within Close range of you).
If you wanted it to deal Bludgeoning damage like a falling object (subject to damage reduction), you'd substitute energy mace (0 level) for bolt of force as the "seed" and stick all the same string of metamagic feats on it, ending up with a 5th level spell (max. damage 15d6).
That is an interesting go at it.
I've sent an email to the player and am saying that the effect they are looking at is the equivalent to basically a 6th level spell.
Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?
I'm people would appreciate a better spell than Disintegrate at 6th spell slot.
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Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?
Pray read the examples I provided. The 7th level version deals force damage (blocked by a simple shield spell) and is 1d6 per caster level (20d6 only at 20th level). The 5th level version deals bludgeoning damage (DR applies) and is 1d6/level with a max. of 15d6. The math is all shown; if you want to look at an earlier version, click here and peruse Chapter 7.
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I'd have a lot of questions for my player if they came to me saying they wanted to make a spell that "does a tonne of damage, has no resistances against it and is autohit with no save."
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Level 4 spell.
Full Round casting time
2-5 Targets
After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).
On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.Over the years, I've reverse-engineered most spells in order to produce a system for re-constructing existing ones and building new ones. In the nomenclature of those house rules, your spell is as follows:
Bolt of force (2nd level) + Mass Effect Spell (1/3 levels; +3 levels) + Inexorable Evocation (+3 levels) + Irresistible Spell (+2 levels) + Ritual Spell (full round; -1 level) + Location-Specific Spell (outdoors under open sky only; -2 levels) = 7th level spell; 1d6 force damage/caster level, max. 20d6 (no save, no SR) to one target per 3 levels (must all be within Close range of you).
If you wanted it to deal Bludgeoning damage like a falling object (subject to damage reduction), you'd substitute energy mace (0 level) for bolt of force as the "seed" and stick all the same string of metamagic feats on it, ending up with a 5th level spell (max. damage 15d6).
That is an interesting go at it.
I've sent an email to the player and am saying that the effect they are looking at is the equivalent to basically a 6th level spell.
Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?
I'm people would appreciate a better spell than Disintegrate at 6th spell slot.
Did you see Kirth's post, he hovered between 5-7.
I agree that it is powerful, I still take the extra 2 rounds for the energy to form and fire into effect.
but this is less about the spell effects I mentioned and more about the intended effects the players want by using the suicidal summoned eagles.
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I'd have a lot of questions for my player if they came to me saying they wanted to make a spell that "does a tonne of damage, has no resistances against it and is autohit with no save."
I was mistaken, the player mentioned an attack roll.
And we (myself and the players) are talking about it. So we are the same.
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Did you see Kirth's post, he hovered between 5-7.
Correction: I did not "hovering" -- I provided two examples, the calculations for which ended up resulting two different spell levels. Note also, again, the various means of resistance and the damage scaling with caster level, a la pretty much all existing direct-damage spells.
Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?Pray read the examples I provided. The 7th level version deals force damage (blocked by a simple shield spell) and is 1d6 per caster level (20d6 only at 20th level). The 5th level version deals bludgeoning damage (DR applies) and is 1d6/level with a max. of 15d6. The math is all shown; if you want to look at an earlier version, click here and peruse Chapter 7.
I'm sorry what I meant is. Can you link to a non-homebrew spell of 6th level that deals 20d6 damage in an unimigitated manner from say, PFSRD or a book I can look at.
Unless the line "It's basically same as 6th level spell" was meant towards a new rebalanced version of the spell effect that somehow is on par with Disintegrate for example without overshadowing so easily?
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I ask my players, when they want to do something like this, "do you want the npcs to do it to you?" 9 times out of 10 they rethink things.
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Did you see Kirth's post, he hovered between 5-7.Correction: I did not "hovering" -- I provided two examples, the calculations for which ended up resulting two different spell levels. Note also, again, the various means of resistance and the damage scaling with caster level, a la pretty much all existing direct-damage spells.
I was just being less wordy. No offense was meant.
OK, it is WAY overpowered as a spell, and would give that one player dominance in the game, forcing the other players into the meat shield support roles. Great for him I guess, but sucks to be anyone else.
Why don't you grant this silliness as a whole team ability if you want to let the ability in at all. Each party member must use a full round action to complete their part and then "pass the baton" to the next in line until they have all played their part.
That is of course assuming it is not your intention, as the GM, to support a " and his sidekicks" game.
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Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?Pray read the examples I provided. The 7th level version deals force damage (blocked by a simple shield spell) and is 1d6 per caster level (20d6 only at 20th level). The 5th level version deals bludgeoning damage (DR applies) and is 1d6/level with a max. of 15d6. The math is all shown; if you want to look at an earlier version, click here and peruse Chapter 7.I'm sorry what I meant is. Can you link to a non-homebrew spell of 6th level that deals 20d6 damage in an unimigitated manner from say, PFSRD or a book I can look at.
Unless the line "It's basically same as 6th level spell" was meant towards a new rebalanced version of the spell effect that somehow is on par with Disintegrate for example without overshadowing so easily?
I cannot but then again I have never said this would be anything but homebrew...and look where the thread got moved.
Even agreed with "Myself" when he mentioned this is completely in houserule territory.
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Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?Pray read the examples I provided. The 7th level version deals force damage (blocked by a simple shield spell) and is 1d6 per caster level (20d6 only at 20th level). The 5th level version deals bludgeoning damage (DR applies) and is 1d6/level with a max. of 15d6. The math is all shown; if you want to look at an earlier version, click here and peruse Chapter 7.I'm sorry what I meant is. Can you link to a non-homebrew spell of 6th level that deals 20d6 damage in an unimigitated manner from say, PFSRD or a book I can look at.
Unless the line "It's basically same as 6th level spell" was meant towards a new rebalanced version of the spell effect that somehow is on par with Disintegrate for example without overshadowing so easily?
I cannot but then again I have never said this would be anything but homebrew...and look where the thread got moved.
Even agreed with "Myself" when he mentioned this is completely in houserule territory.
I still think the player should probably just resort to a bag of holding or a portable hole filled with rocks and boulders and the occasional innocent cow.
"It's the same as a 6th level spell" line was rather iffy when there's no such spell to show in comparison. With the example given above by Kirth, one could probably say "It's same as disintegrate only better."
Dunno bout you but I know I'd send my evil wizards casting 12d6 no sr, no save spell against 4 targets rather than one Disintegrate that calls for touch attack, save and sr vs a single target.
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OK, it is WAY overpowered as a spell, and would give that one player dominance in the game, forcing the other players into the meat shield support roles. Great for him I guess, but sucks to be anyone else.
Why don't you grant this silliness as a whole team ability if you want to let the ability in at all. Each party member must use a full round action to complete their part and then "pass the baton" to the next in line until they have all played their part.
That is of course assuming it is not your intention, as the GM, to support a " and his sidekicks" game.
Actually allowing this as is will boost his power level. Said player plays support/healer roles almost exclusively.
2 other players are playing Mythic Vital Strike/ Mythic Power Attack melee PCs (we are playing in WotR, one is a paladin the other is a barbarian). These guys are putting out 150+ easy.
1 is an Archer who can easily hit 200 in a round. This is the player who is doing most of the rules crunching on this scenario.
1 is a TWF crit fishing slayer who is also about 150+ a round.
The shaman player deals almost zero damage, and doesn't need to. This was a series of thinking out of the box thoughts.
Now admittedly there has been some misreading the rules but nothing deliberate to get a leg up on the other players.
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George Lass was taken out by a toilet seat falling from low orbit....
A meteorite the size of a toaster will dig a very big hole.
..... the size of a washing machine digs a serious crater.
The planet being struck by a terminal velocity Tarrasque is potentially an extinction level event. (Maybe even for the Tarrasque)
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I was mistaken, the player mentioned an attack roll.
In that case, in the core rules, scorching ray is a pretty good starting point. Assume +3 levels for making SR: no, and +1 level to deal bludgeoning or force damage instead of fire, and you end up with a 6th level spell. (This is without using any homebrew content at all, just making some reasonable assumptions.)
Scorching rays do 4d6 each x 3 max = 12d6 max. At 6th level, 7d6 or 8d6 each isn't unreasonable.
So, by merely starting with an existing spell in the core rules and making some limited assumptions, you figure that a 6th level spell dealing 7d6 to up to 3 targets (ranged touch attacks needed, no save, no SR) is quite reasonable. 3 rays dealing a flat 20d6 of untyped damage is not.
Alternatively, start with chain lightning and go from there (for saves, but no attack rolls). No matter how you look at it, though, there are a few constants in the rules:
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I was mistaken, the player mentioned an attack roll.In that case, in the core rules, scorching ray is a pretty good starting point. Assume +3 levels for making SR: no, and +1 level to deal bludgeoning or force damage instead of fire, and you end up with a 6th level spell. (This is without using any homebrew content at all, just making some reasonable assumptions.)
Scorching rays do 4d6 each x 3 max = 12d6 max. At 4 levels higher, a spell's damage cap (per the 3.0DMG) is 10d6 higher, divided by 3 rays = 3d6+/-.
So, by merely starting with an existing spell in the core rules and making some limited assumptions, you figure that a 6th level spell dealing 7d6 to up to 3 targets (ranged touch attacks needed, no save, no SR) is quite reasonable. 3 rays dealing a flat 20d6 of untyped damage is not.
Alternatively, start with chain lightning and go from there (for saves, but no attack rolls). No matter how you look at it, though, there are a few constants in the rules:
Untyped damage is off the table.
Damage scales with caster level, either directly or by number of rays (or missiles, in the case of magic missile).
Direct damage caps out at some maximum, generally determined by the spell level.
Direct-damage spells generally either require an attack roll or allow a save.
Ok.
Your quote of mine is out of context to what I was saying, which was to correct another poster when they were talking about the opening post where I mentioned there was no attack roll. I was mistaken, there was an attack roll included by the player.
I have never said what they were asking for was not excessive. So for what you just posted with the scorching ray as a standard action dealing 7d6 for each ray. The proposed effects from the opening post was 20d6/ray for an average of 3 rays total over 3 rounds. They are fairly comparable.
21d6/ray level 6 scorching ray
20d6/ray for op ray.
I think a really good comparable is Polar Ray. This is an 8th level spell. It allows SR but also deals Dex Drain and has a higher max damage potential.
There is no doubt that the effect that I put out there, as I saw what they wanted to do and I boxed it up into a spell form, is very strong. Much too strong as a 4th level effect. 6th is where I think it does start to come into play, sure even then it is a wanted offensive spell and there is likely no way I would think I would allow it in a regular game.
21d6/ray level 6 scorching ray
Sorry, I have no idea where this is coming from. It would be 21d6 divided among 3 rays, not "per ray."
However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.
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Pray tell can you show a 6th level spell that does unmitigated 20d6 with no chance of saves or escapes?Pray read the examples I provided. The 7th level version deals force damage (blocked by a simple shield spell) and is 1d6 per caster level (20d6 only at 20th level). The 5th level version deals bludgeoning damage (DR applies) and is 1d6/level with a max. of 15d6. The math is all shown; if you want to look at an earlier version, click here and peruse Chapter 7.I'm sorry what I meant is. Can you link to a non-homebrew spell of 6th level that deals 20d6 damage in an unimigitated manner from say, PFSRD or a book I can look at.
Unless the line "It's basically same as 6th level spell" was meant towards a new rebalanced version of the spell effect that somehow is on par with Disintegrate for example without overshadowing so easily?
I cannot but then again I have never said this would be anything but homebrew...and look where the thread got moved.
Even agreed with "Myself" when he mentioned this is completely in houserule territory.
I still think the player should probably just resort to a bag of holding or a portable hole filled with rocks and boulders and the occasional innocent cow.
"It's the same as a 6th level spell" line was rather iffy when there's no such spell to show in comparison. With the example given above by Kirth, one could probably say "It's same as disintegrate only better."
Dunno bout you but I know I'd send my evil wizards casting 12d6 no sr, no save spell against 4 targets rather than one Disintegrate that calls for touch attack, save and sr vs a single target.
Shrug.
Don't down play the massive effect that Disintegrate has in just "disintegrating" the target, even on a made Fort save.
Also don't down play the length of time it takes for the effect of the op "spell" to take place.
I do believe that 6th level is where this should be making sense. It is still strong, but it is arriving at its wheelhouse now.
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21d6/ray level 6 scorching raySorry, I have no idea where this is coming from. It would be 21d6 divided among 3 rays, not "per ray."
However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.
The spell effect I mentioned in the op takes 3 rounds to happen.
In that scenario the caster using the 6th level version of Scorching Ray you mentioned would be able to get off 3 of those spells. Each of those spells has 3 rays dealing 7d6. Over the 3 rounds it is like 3 rays dealing 21d6.
Did I do a bit better explaining my process? I know I can be a little muddled when explaining things.
We can look at it like:
Level 6 Scorching Ray over 3 rounds: 63d6 total damage
OP Spell Effect: 60d6 total damage.
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However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.
Come to think of it, a spell like that would be a fun addition for an NPC BBEG. He casts it at the start of the big fight, and you decide whether to fly up in the air and dispel it, or else just pound him into the ground so that, 3 rounds later, he's not able to select targets.
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21d6/ray level 6 scorching raySorry, I have no idea where this is coming from. It would be 21d6 divided among 3 rays, not "per ray."
However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.
The spell effect I mentioned in the op takes 3 rounds to happen.
In that scenario the caster using the 6th level version of Scorching Ray you mentioned would be able to get off 3 of those spells. Each of those spells has 3 rays dealing 7d6. Over the 3 rounds it is like 3 rays dealing 21d6.
Did I do a bit better explaining my process? I know I can be a little muddled when explaining things.
We can look at it like:
Level 6 Scorching Ray over 3 rounds: 63d6 total damage
OP Spell Effect: 60d6 total damage.You should be comparing it as:
3x 6th level variant Scorching Ray (63d6) (3 rounds)
1x ?th level OP Spell Effect (60d6) (1 round + 2 rounds onset)Spell slots are a finite source, and casting time vs. onset time is important as well. Also, increased onset is almost infinitely preferable to an equal amount of increased casting time, if you are able to select the targets at the end of the onset. Considering that this effect can also probably be delayed by a small number of rounds (like the Delayed Blast Fireball), and targeting is "smart" (you select subsequent targets after you roll damage for each hit, instead of declaring all targets first, then rolling damage), that also adds some value. A 1st level spell should not do 600d6 damage, even if I spend an hour casting it. Similar logic applies here.
Fair reply.
Spells slots are a finite source but there are ways to increase the number of castable spells you have at your disposal, including wands, staves and scrolls. Add in pearls of power and their ilk.
Yes, of course it is preferable to have a longer onset time, but it is still time that the spell is not having an effect. It is just that it cannot be disrupted after the first round.
The targeting is an interesting topic, and I never really thought of it. Thinking of how the actual effect with the Thrush giving orders and the Eagles then divebombing,I would have to say that the targeting is done at the start of the 3rd round then damage is rolled vs each target. So I guess it is not "smart targeting".
I also never mentioned that the effect can be delayed after it is cast.
The comparison was really made to set apples to apples in terms of dice of damage. In 3 rounds the 2 spells are dealing the same dice of damage. There are many other factors in play but just based on damage dice these 2 spells are very alike.
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However, another thing that strikes me is that, in my experience, by the time you get 6th level spells, most fights are over after 3 rounds. In that context, 1,000,000d6 per ray isn't unreasonable, because there's no one left to use it on. A combat spell that takes more than a full round to get going isn't going to see much actual use in combat.Come to think of it, a spell like that would be a fun addition for an NPC BBEG. He casts it at the start of the big fight, and you decide whether to fly up in the air and dispel it, or else just pound him into the ground so that, 3 rounds later, he's not able to select targets.
LOL.
Your Welcome?
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Your Welcome?
No, you're welcome.
Bypassing DR is a MYTHIC ability. Adding it to a fourth level spell is ill advised. Before you let players start crafting their own spells, it's worth looking at what's already available outside of Core Paizo, such as 1001 Spells and Deep Magic. If a player can't find something from one of those sources, then they don't need it or are just asking to break the game as in this case.
Level 4 spell.
Full Round casting time
2-5 Targets
After casting the spell, the spell energy takes a round to coalesce high in the air, about 200' (this spell can only be used outside).
On the next round the built up energy bolts down and strikes the targets, no save, no attack roll, no spell resistance. Each target takes 20d6 damage, no energy resistance, no DR.
So the spell takes a full round and thus is easier to disrupt, then takes 2 more rounds to fully take effect, and can only be used in the outdoors with no tree cover.
but
does a tonne of damage, has no resistances against it and is autohit with no save.
Critiques?
Beyond how powerful it is in combat, which has been mentioned, also consider the outside effects.
The party needs to infiltrate a castle? Well, 18 seconds from now it will be less infiltration and more sifting through rubble.