Can Swarms double move?

[ItsJustAce]

I wanna know.. .

[MichaelCullen]

They may, there is nothing in the swarm subtype rules preventing this.

swarm subtype rules from the Bestiary:

Swarm Subtype: A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has "swarm" in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below.

Swarm HD Swarm Base Damage
1–5 1d6
6–10 2d6
11–15 3d6
16–20 4d6
21 or more 5d6
A swarm's attacks are nonmagical, unless the swarm's description states otherwise. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack's damage to 0, being incorporeal, or other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm. Some swarms also have acid, blood drain, poison, or other special attacks in addition to normal damage.

Swarms do not threaten creatures, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack. However, they distract foes whose squares they occupy, as described below.

Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.

[MichaelCullen]

The real question is, because swarms "deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed."

Can they do their damage twice per round if they use their standard action as a second move action?

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

If a swarm moves onto creature A, inflicts enough damage to kill it, and still has a standard action left, it's going to try to move onto B and damage it too. At least, I can't see any rules reason to deny it the second move.

It's more problematic whether, if A survives the attack, the swarm can use its standard to "move" nowhere and re-attack. That seems like the kind of thing that the rules would mention, because many GMs are going to miss the tactic otherwise.

[dragonhunterq]

Yes they can, but I don't think they do any damage if they do. The swarm rules say they don't need to make an attack roll to deal damage - nothing there to make the attack a free action or removing the need for an attack action.

Maybe, I am not 100% sure.

[John Mechalas]

This is a good FAQ candidate. I agree with dragonhunterq here. As a GM, I would not allow the swarm to get any attacks from a double move. That feels like an abuse of the rules to me. Though it's ambiguously worded, a swarm's attack is still an attack action, just one with no die roll.

[ItsJustAce]

I agree. An official wording on the rules would be great.

[Quentin Coldwater]

I've always seen it ruled swarms deal damage at its end of turn. Not quite the same as "at the end of move," but it dodges a whole lot of rules, such as "if I use two move actions, I get two damage actions."

Personally, I think it's intended like most creatures: one attack action per round. The action is just built in into their move actions. It makes sense, as the swarm has to take time to eat its victim. Moving, having a quick bite, then moving and biting again doesn't seem like how it should work.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Locally, I don't think I've seen the PFS GMs give the swarm two move actions, ever. They just take one move action per turn, and no other actions. Given that the attack was part of the move, I always figured they just have a single action per turn.

[James Risner]

I don't see a rule against it.

[Knight who says Meh]

If you take two move actions your "move" isn't ended after your first move.

[James Risner]

There certainly is precedent to consider both moves as one move such as in the attack of opportunity rules.

[Cantriped]

I'm inclined to agree with James here. If a swarm moves twice its movement speed in a single round, then the first half of said movement shouldn't trigger the "at the end of their move" condition for their Swarm Attack.

However, technically speaking the swarm did take two separate "Move" Move Actions over the course of said round. Therefore it is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules to declare it gets to cause Swarm Damage at the end of each of those "Move" Move Actions. If the swarm performed the "Run" or "Withdraw" Full-Round Actions, it would only ever get 1 Swarm Attack though, because only one movement related action ended that round.

[supervillan]

If a swarm gets to do damage twice in one turn it's horrendously unbalanced for CR. I always read "do damage at the end of its move" as working as at the end of the turn, or when the swarms stops moving. In play I have normally found that a swarm can find a target within one move though, and thus stops moving and does swarm damage.

I would strongly discourage GMs from allowing a swarm to deal its swarm damage more than once per turn.

[Murdock Mudeater]

supervillan wrote:

If a swarm gets to do damage twice in one turn it's horrendously unbalanced for CR. I always read "do damage at the end of its move" as working as at the end of the turn, or when the swarms stops moving. In play I have normally found that a swarm can find a target within one move though, and thus stops moving and does swarm damage.

I would strongly discourage GMs from allowing a swarm to deal its swarm damage more than once per turn.

The other concern is that there is now a Druid archetype that can wildshape into a swarm. So, not just a GM concern.

[Ascalaphus]

I think this is one of the cases where "ends its movement" is used in the sense of "the place where it is when its turn ends".

It's already scary enough that this doesn't cost an action, so swarms can use Run actions to chase and damage PCs.

[Cantriped]

Swarms are bloody scary!

Before the Troop Rules were released, one of the custom monsters I threw at my party was a swarm of tiny, flying, four armed, mutant goblin larva that could perform grapples, and drew the target into their space as part of the successful grapple check. I don't think my players had ever been so terrified of "mere goblins" before.

[Starbuck_II]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

If a swarm moves onto creature A, inflicts enough damage to kill it, and still has a standard action left, it's going to try to move onto B and damage it too. At least, I can't see any rules reason to deny it the second move.

It's more problematic whether, if A survives the attack, the swarm can use its standard to "move" nowhere and re-attack. That seems like the kind of thing that the rules would mention, because many GMs are going to miss the tactic otherwise.

No, you have to move... however, they can skip back 5 feet than forward then back then forward so they end up in same place at end of a move action, but they can't truly not move (even if same result).

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

If a swarm moves onto creature A, inflicts enough damage to kill it, and still has a standard action left, it's going to try to move onto B and damage it too. At least, I can't see any rules reason to deny it the second move.

It's more problematic whether, if A survives the attack, the swarm can use its standard to "move" nowhere and re-attack. That seems like the kind of thing that the rules would mention, because many GMs are going to miss the tactic otherwise.

No, you have to move... however, they can skip back 5 feet than forward then back then forward so they end up in same place at end of a move action, but they can't truly not move (even if same result).

If a swarm begins its turn on top of somebody, does it have to move back and forth or can it just sit there unmoving and attack them? Common sense dictates the latter.

[Gisher]

James Risner wrote:

There certainly is precedent to consider both moves as one move such as in the attack of opportunity rules.

And the last part of this:

FAQ wrote:

Spring Attack: Can I use Spring Attack to make an attack from an ally's square?

Let's use a diagram of a 5-foot-wide hallway to help visualize this question. Periods are open squares. A is the acting character. Numbers are allies of A. X is the monster.

. . . . . A 1 2 3 X

Using the diagram as a model, the question is, "Can I use Spring Attack to move from A to 3, make an attack on the monster from 3's square, then move back to A and end my turn?"

The answer is "yes." The key to understanding this is the general rule, "you cannot end your movement in an occupied square." Spring Attack is a full-round action; it is not a move action, then an attack, and then another move action, it's one continuous movement with an attack happening in the middle. Thus, with Spring Attack you're not ending your movement until you end your movement for the turn.

To look at it another way, if the character just wanted to move from A to 3 and back to A, that would be a legal move because he's not ending his movement in 3, he's ending his movement back in A. With Spring Attack, the character still isn't ending his movement in 3; the feat gives him the ability to perform an attack as part of the continuous movement from A to 3 to A (regardless of whether that attack happens when he's in an occupied square).

(Even with speed 15, a character moving 15 feet from A to 3 and then 15 feet from 3 to A isn't ending his movement in 3... using a move action to move 15 feet and a standard action to move 15 feet doesn't mean he's actually pausing halfway through his movement to change actions.)

[Tacticslion]

Dot.

[William Werminster]

I'd say no. They can't double 'sting' you by double moving on your square.

[Jeff Morse]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

supervillan wrote:

If a swarm gets to do damage twice in one turn it's horrendously unbalanced for CR. I always read "do damage at the end of its move" as working as at the end of the turn, or when the swarms stops moving. In play I have normally found that a swarm can find a target within one move though, and thus stops moving and does swarm damage.

I would strongly discourage GMs from allowing a swarm to deal its swarm damage more than once per turn.

The other concern is that there is now a Druid archetype that can wildshape into a swarm. So, not just a GM concern.

Do tell, what be this archtype?

[Starbuck_II]

Jeff Morse wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

supervillan wrote:

If a swarm gets to do damage twice in one turn it's horrendously unbalanced for CR. I always read "do damage at the end of its move" as working as at the end of the turn, or when the swarms stops moving. In play I have normally found that a swarm can find a target within one move though, and thus stops moving and does swarm damage.

I would strongly discourage GMs from allowing a swarm to deal its swarm damage more than once per turn.

The other concern is that there is now a Druid archetype that can wildshape into a swarm. So, not just a GM concern.

Do tell, what be this archtype?

Swarm Monger: Swarm animal companion, turn into a swarm later.

[Jeff Morse]

Thanks

[Diego Rossi]

James Risner wrote:

There certainly is precedent to consider both moves as one move such as in the attack of opportunity rules.

Seconded, exactly what I was thinking to write.