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Hello everyone,
I recently started playing Pathfinder and will probably be playing in the PFS adventures exclusively. It's been tons of fun so far and the community in the region is great. Thus (and because I'm a power gamer deep down), I'd like to bring the best possible character to help out the team. I've had some success up until level 3 now with a standard human paladin greatsword build.
For reference:
Archetype: Human Oath of Vengeance Paladin (level 3)
Stats: 18 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 7 wis, 16 cha (after human racial of +2 str).
Feats: weapon focus greatsword, power attack, feywild foundling.
Lay on hands feature: Mercy removes fatigue.
Gear: Amulet of natural armor +1, greatsword +1 (next will probably be a +1 fullplate and a +1 cloak of protection, then +2 str belt)
Traits: Dangerously curious (UMD skill), reactionary (+2 init).
Current wands: Longstride, protection from evil, honeyed words, cure light wounds.
Most builds I've seen of higher level paladins recommend spending all feats in the extra lay on hands per day after this, up to level 11 or so, when some take eldritch heritage feats. Some however go for a combination of lunge, vital strike, improved sunder and blindfighting. I've recently also seen a build using the weapon of the chosen featline with vital strike to roll twice on each vital strike.
The main Issue I'm currently facing is that even at low level, using power attack means it's sometimes very difficult to hit, with d20 rolls of 10 frequently missing (that would be 17 vs AC now without conditional bonusses like flanking, somewhat hard to get as a tankish character i've found). Also, I feel like my offensive power from level 1 is dropping very rapidly; enemies now take 2 to 3 average hits to die and sometimes there are also no smite evil targets in the entire adventure. I realise one shotting everything like level 1 is not a healthy goal but I do like the idea of being able to do a lot of damage.
What I was considering to counter this somewhat was taking 1 level of bloodrager either at level 4 or level 5 before continuing to level paladin. Rage seems to be a free action +4 morale str bonus while it lasts which adds both accuracy and more damage, and seems to stack with smite evil when it gets used. The extra rage feat grants this 6 more rounds per day which would be 11 rounds/day total at level 5. Taking the celestial bloodline from level 1 bloodrager also makes all my attacks good-aligned and adds 1d6 extra to evil outsiders. For some extra class synergy, lay on hands can remove the fatigued condition as a swift action when rage ends. Bloodrager also grants access to str, dex and perception skills to not suck as much in heavy armor out of combat.
Further down the line I could see taking a Furious weapon enchant along with another extra rage for 17 rounds/day of rage at level 7. Furious' attribute makes the weapon receive a +2 additional enhancement bonus while under the effects of rage for the cost of only a +1 enhancement.
Of course, this would put my paladin progression 1 level behind par and doing this would eat up at least 1 feat slot, probably 2.
To me, while this looks like a good idea on paper, I've been unable to find a similar build, making me somewhat nervous if I'm overlooking something. As a relatively unexperienced player, it's also hard for me to gauge how things will be at higher levels and how important more lay on hands, lunge, vital strike etc are at that point.
Can anyone offer any kind of advice or critique? Any would be greatly appreciated.
-Kind regards,
Trevor
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Good suggestions, thanks. I didn't really know Id rager existed, grabbing perception skill focus instead of the celestial bloodline seems like a decent tradeoff.
About the wand of blade lash, how would that help me, exactly? While it might knock a target prone, using the wand would take up my standard action for the round, making me unable to attack. In addition, the target can then stand up again before my new turn comes up. Effectively, I'd waste my turn to remove the monster's move action? Or am I missing something?
Honestly I don't see a huge return for bloodrager. You will habe a handful of rage rounds and Maybe some running shoes. At level 4 you can get divine favor (along with pearls of power) and at level 5 weapon bond. Take the extra trait feat to get fate favored and get divine favor at +2.
I did this build. Went id bloodrager anger to get power attack while raging, then I took the extra rage power feat. 11 rounds of rage is the same as if you were a lv4 barb. Id will give you an extra +4 to hit with rage and furious weapon over not having it.
Going urban and getting a bloodline familiar protector and the boon companion feat can be nice too. Get extra AC and extra .5 HP plus the boon a familiar gives. This will give you an extra +3 to hit with rage and furious weapon over not having it.
As and oath of vengeance paladin you've already lost your lv 11 power of shared smite, so not reaching the lv11 power isn't that big of a loss. And paladin spells, while nice to have, aren't super important to get as fast as you can.
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It has to be used correctly but a very useful spell. If you can't close the distance use it for a reach trip. They move to stand and move to you thus they lost a standard and you get to full attack next round. They have lost an attack action and you gain of iterative attacks.
If you suspect really high ac trip and move in and gain the attack back on the aoo against a lower ac. Attack against lower ac and they lose there iterative attacks by standing.
If there is an adjacent ally or two trip and move in you generate 3 aoo when they stand up.
That is 2 extra attacks (allies), 1 attack against lower ac (your aoo) and you remove there iteratives if they stand up.
Always remember that when you approach without pounce you get one attack and they get a full attack. This spell can balance that disparity. As well as swing the action economy of many other situations.
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I did this build. Went id bloodrager anger to get power attack while raging, then I took the extra rage power feat. 11 rounds of rage is the same as if you were a lv4 barb. Id will give you an extra +4 to hit with rage and furious weapon over not having it.
Going urban and getting a bloodline familiar protector and the boon companion feat can be nice too. Get extra AC and extra .5 HP plus the boon a familiar gives. This will give you an extra +3 to hit with rage and furious weapon over not having it.
As and oath of vengeance paladin you've already lost your lv 11 power of shared smite, so not reaching the lv11 power isn't that big of a loss. And paladin spells, while nice to have, aren't super important to get as fast as you can.
@ Chesspawn So basically, if I understand the Id Rager level 1 features correctly, the three 'best' emotional focusses grant the following (in addition to rage) at level 1:
-You get skill focus in 1 skill associated with the emotional focus.
-Anger (skill: intimidate/survival) gets an additional +2 str while raging, also has access to power attack as a bonus feat but it's active only during the rage.
-Dutiful (sense motive/diplomacy) gets iron will as a bonus feat and a +2 bonus on all attack rolls for the rage duration against any target that attacks you during it, also if this triggers you deal damage as if your weapon is one size larger.
-Hatred (perception/something else) gains weapon focus during rage and the ability to use a move action to designate a terget against which you get +2 to hit and +(half of total hit dice) of damage for the rage duration.
For a one level dip, possibly with one feat invested in extra rage, all of those options seem really, really strong. Interestingly, anger would give skill focus survival which would take away a qualification feat for the eldritch heritage bloodline (orc), though PFS would stop at 12 meaning it would still be a 2 feat investment to get only 2 strength. Hmm. I guess overall hatred might be best since it gives skill focus perception and the move action buff option but the rage ability of anger is easier to use.
@ Ekibus:
I do like the suggestion of the extra trait option for divine favor. The other half can go into adopted>half elven reflexes to get the equivalent of improved initiative from reactionary and reflexes, if I understand correctly. That would also fix the tendancy to be a bit slow in combat.
So let's see... if both suggestions are combined into one level 5 build:
-feats: extra traits, feywild foundling, weapon focus or power attack, extra rage. Bonus feats: skill focus (survival or perception, from anger or hatred Id rager), also power attack or weapon focus (though active during rage).
Traits: dangerously curious, reactionary, fate's favored, adopted>half elven reflexes.
The only thing that worries me about this is that 11 rounds of rage per day doesn't seem like that much, especially if either weapon focus or power attack depend on rage being active. It becomes even more so if a furious weapon enchant is added. Is 11 rounds really enough for this?
so anger also gives the dex penalty. But the nice thing about it and dutiful is that if you were already going to take that feat you can sub in extra rage instead.
As for your traits, I believe both init boosters are traits and thus don't stack.
EDIT:
ALSO the kindness focus from psychic anthology is also pretty good too.
as said I've done this, I have 12 rounds because of little more con. It's been fine for me and I'm at lv10 now. I rage every fight and have maybe ran out of rage once? I can't really think of a time but it may have happened. If a scenario spans 2 days you got your rage refreshed so you're good. So the issue is having many fights in a day, AND/OR the fights take many rounds. But with a raging smiting paladin fights last for 2-3 rounds so that gives you 4 fights worth of rage.
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so anger also gives the dex penalty. But the nice thing about it and dutiful is that if you were already going to take that feat you can sub in extra rage instead.
As for your traits, I believe both init boosters are traits and thus don't stack.
EDIT:
ALSO the kindness focus from psychic anthology is also pretty good too.as said I've done this, I have 12 rounds because of little more con. It's been fine for me and I'm at lv10 now. I rage every fight and have maybe ran out of rage once? I can't really think of a time but it may have happened. If a scenario spans 2 days you got your rage refreshed so you're good. So the issue is having many fights in a day, AND/OR the fights take many rounds. But with a raging smiting paladin fights last for 2-3 rounds so that gives you 4 fights worth of rage.
Fair enough, thanks. I'm unable to find the kindness focus in the anothology document, by the way, are you sure it's in there somewhere?
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It has to be used correctly but a very useful spell. If you can't close the distance use it for a reach trip. They move to stand and move to you thus they lost a standard and you get to full attack next round. They have lost an attack action and you gain of iterative attacks.
If you suspect really high ac trip and move in and gain the attack back on the aoo against a lower ac. Attack against lower ac and they lose there iterative attacks by standing.
If there is an adjacent ally or two trip and move in you generate 3 aoo when they stand up.
That is 2 extra attacks (allies), 1 attack against lower ac (your aoo) and you remove there iteratives if they stand up.Always remember that when you approach without pounce you get one attack and they get a full attack. This spell can balance that disparity. As well as swing the action economy of many other situations.
Good tactical advice, thanks. Coming from d&d fourth edition the concept of tactical maneuvering around avoiding full attacks from the enemy is still foreign to me.
Fair enough, thanks. I'm unable to find the kindness focus in the anothology document, by the way, are you sure it's in there somewhere?so anger also gives the dex penalty. But the nice thing about it and dutiful is that if you were already going to take that feat you can sub in extra rage instead.
As for your traits, I believe both init boosters are traits and thus don't stack.
EDIT:
ALSO the kindness focus from psychic anthology is also pretty good too.as said I've done this, I have 12 rounds because of little more con. It's been fine for me and I'm at lv10 now. I rage every fight and have maybe ran out of rage once? I can't really think of a time but it may have happened. If a scenario spans 2 days you got your rage refreshed so you're good. So the issue is having many fights in a day, AND/OR the fights take many rounds. But with a raging smiting paladin fights last for 2-3 rounds so that gives you 4 fights worth of rage.
It's on page 4.
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It's on page 4.Fair enough, thanks. I'm unable to find the kindness focus in the anothology document, by the way, are you sure it's in there somewhere?so anger also gives the dex penalty. But the nice thing about it and dutiful is that if you were already going to take that feat you can sub in extra rage instead.
As for your traits, I believe both init boosters are traits and thus don't stack.
EDIT:
ALSO the kindness focus from psychic anthology is also pretty good too.as said I've done this, I have 12 rounds because of little more con. It's been fine for me and I'm at lv10 now. I rage every fight and have maybe ran out of rage once? I can't really think of a time but it may have happened. If a scenario spans 2 days you got your rage refreshed so you're good. So the issue is having many fights in a day, AND/OR the fights take many rounds. But with a raging smiting paladin fights last for 2-3 rounds so that gives you 4 fights worth of rage.
After having read it now, I'll definitely take kindness! It fits the paladin archetype a lot better and it feels fun to smite people with the raging power of friendship :) If I read the feature correctly, after doing a single attack, you can make an ally attack the target as well. This reminds me a bit of the fourth edition d&d warlord, which i sorely miss.
If you do this get a wand of blade lash, prone targets are much easier to hit. Consider Id rager (powerful choice) or enlightened (a more thematic choice) that has a great selection of wands to chose from.
Just remember you can't cast while raging.
. . . Unless you have Mad Magic.
I'm really glad we made sure that kindness was compatible with id rager. ^_^
It bears mentioning that the kindness emotional focus is not yet confirmed to be PFS-legal, however, so I recommend having a backup plan.
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Hmm so you took a oath of vengeance but filed with the power of kindness?