| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was playing last night with some friends. Two of the characters are a married couple. She is a druid. Well, from time to time, the characters like to go off when she's in wild shape and have some fun. Nasty, but there it is. The other characters, including mine, like to ignore the fact that this happens, as it's better for our sanity that way.
But from this came a interesting OOC discussion. If a druid were wild shaped, got it on with someone, and happened to become pregnant, what would happen?
Would the baby grow like normal?
Would it be human like the parents, or half-breed if one of the parents is an elf or orc? Would the baby be part animal, whichever one she was transformed into at the time of conception?
Would the baby miscarry just because of the circumstances?
Would the mother be forced to remain in wild shape until delivery?
I thought that might make for an interesting discussion. So, what does the great people of the internet think about this?
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
When you are under a polymorph effect, your creature type doesn't change. If you're a human in the shape of a donkey, you're still a human, not an animal . I'd rule that if it mattered, fertility would be based on your natural form. So no animal hybrids, and if you were recreating scenes from bachelor party or clerks 2, you might have normal offspring from your partner.
But if this makes the rest of the group uncomfortable, then you are best to have an out of character conversation with the player and ask them to stop.
| 19 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do you want skinchangers? Because this is how you get skinchangers
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The race wouldn't change even when polymorphed and I'd probably rule that there's no chance on miscarriage as long as the new shape could host the baby, but that would completely depend on the GM.
If he wanted to add some flavor to it, he might add high probabilities of the baby becoming a sorcerer when he grows old with a related bloodline.
I had a Wizard NPC that refused to use all kind of transmutation effects on herself and also refused to use powerful magic because she was afraid of the consequences on the baby (as she was a lvl 20 Eldritch Knight it was also a good way to have her away from action for a time so we could focus on the PCs).
Some PCs and NPCs in our stories have to Alter Self as a somewhat ludic spell, but I don't think any of them has gone as far as trying the wildshape thing.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
RAW, I'd say nothing special happens. It also helps with everybody's sanity.
That said, mythology usually goes with the weird stuff happening. Loki transformed into a mare and gave birth to Odin's horse. Pretty sure the Minotaur was the result of Poseidon turning into a bull and raping/murdering a whole wedding reception. Stuff like that.
It really goes down to the kind of story you want to tell and you and your players are comfortable telling. Maybe your Druid is cool with being the mother to a couple of Bear cubs and decides to spend most of her time in Bear form to raise them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would allow it to work however the mother-to-be wants it to work. She (or he? Sometimes couples genderflip in RPGs) has more of a dog in this hunt than I do, as it were.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just to clarify, the players who have these married characters don't go into any kind of detail or anything like that, it doesn't go too far (in wild shape or normal). So, as a player it doesn't bother me (or anyone else at the table). If it did become a problem I would say something to them. So, I'm not asking for advice in that area, but thank you anyway! :-D
I was just opening the "what if scenario" of pregnancy in wild shape because we started talking about it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do you want skinchangers? Because this is how you get skinchangers
This is also a good point...would this produce some kind of skinchanger?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was just opening the "what if scenario" of pregnancy in wild shape because we started talking about it.
I think in general in a collaborative storytelling game, any and all questions about pregancy: odds, mechanics, whatever should be left up to the player whose character is going to end up that way. You don't want to tell players when they get with child, and you don't want to start giving them penalties or w/e because of how you imagine how you want it to be. If a player wants to RP like they're Xena during that season (5 I think?) when Lucy Lawless was visibly pregnant: let them. If a player wants to just pause the campaign for them to have a kid and there's a way to do that (i.e. the end of the world isn't imminent) then do that.
That is, let the player indulge their own fantasy (within the comfort levels of everybody else) here. A GM should keep their hands off this one. If pushed to make a ruling, I would say that anybody with sufficient control over their body to turn into an otter, a sparrow, or a tiger on a whim can make this work however they want it to work.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do you want skinchangers? Because this is how you get skinchangersThis is also a good point...would this produce some kind of skinchanger?
A skinchanger is a very reasonable result, but as others have said if this actually ends up coming up in-game then it should be up to the player.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's right, but what could do the exposure to the magic from shapechanging to the embryo? That's where interesting things could happen.
A baby that was conceived in the elemental plane of water could be an Undine even if her fathers are human, as I read not long ago. So this could be the same.
I'm not saying to take this as a rule, but as an idea to make the story more interesant, of course in aggreement with the players involved.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think leaving it to a discussion between you and the parents would be a good idea... however, if you're wanting ideas, then I got some.
If the mother is Wildshaped only occasionally during the pregnancy and not at conception, then the baby might be mostly just the parent race(s), but with the potential to develop a proper Bloodline if the baby is charismatic enough (I'm thinking Sylvan).
If there's Wildshaping fairly frequently and maybe during conception, then I'd guess some form of stronger, less benign effect. Perhaps an Oracle Curse and Mystery, the divine source being Nature itself. Wolfscarred Curse with the Nature Mystery would work.
If the Wildshape class feature is being used for all it's worth through the nine months(ish) and at conception, I'm gonna say full-on Skinwalker. Not just for the bestial aspects, but also for the ability to modify one's own form, something that the Wolfscarred kid above doesn't have access to. Exposure to that much transmutation is going to give the little one some control (and could make for hilarious roleplaying of the Terrible Twos if you waive the usual puberty-activation assumption).
My advice? The mother should be going all-or-nothing with that transmutation, lest the baby be stuck halfway.
(In addition, the little Druidling may end up as a Suli or Undine if Mum's a fan of elemental forms. I would highly doubt that she was a Fire, Earth or Air elemental during conception, but Water could conceivably [hah] work if they REALLY tried.)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lot of great ideas, here.
So good, in fact, that repeating them won't do any good.
So basically assume that if there is an idea listed above, it's probably a good one.
That said, a few options not yet mentioned...
This could, well be the origin of dopplegangers, phasms, or similar shape-shifting creatures, such as:
- aranea (magical beast sorcerous spider with a single alternate humanoid form),
- faceless stalker (evil fey that steals others' faces and forms),
- jackalwere (like a therianthrope, but in reverse and with jackals),
- natural therianthropes,
- bloduewedd (flower plant with an alt humanoid shape or prairie owl shape)
- bog nixie (though that's a bit weirder, considering that's just a kind of nixie; then again, that's fey for you),
- oni
- (especially the animal-headed/"common") rakshasa,
- kitsune,
- popabola (shape-shifting one-eyed monster... ),
- or something like the Animal Lord template (if the mother/father... favors... a particular... kind),
- something weird like a royal naga,
- or even something terrible like the byrkolakas (if this is a mortal "sin" of some sort in your setting, or Urgathoa takes a shine) or tripurasura (as a mightier asura takes the opportunity to meddle with creation).
Even something weird like raijus are not necessarily off the table ().
Heck, this could even explain the origin of the naturally shape-shifting dragons in your setting - possibly sorcerous kobolds came first, took the Dragon Disciple prestige class, and eventually went so far with it that they just became dragons all the time, but with mild abilities to revert to what they were.
You could say that a demon lord of bestiality (or just straight up Lameshtu) takes a particular interest and, ah... "blesses" the child with any of this stuff. Or maybe outright turns it into a demon, like a succubus (lust-based shape-shifter; makes sense; also 'half'-succubus/alu fiend) or incubus (similar but weaker and more violent) or one of the more animalistic demons. Or something like a tiefling with animalistic features (see variant tieflings at the bottom).
Speaking of templates, there are a ton of them that could apply, even some that don't seem like they should at first glance, like the seelie or quickling (because of a possible fey connection or something), or a saurian or plantblood, but also more obvious stuff like the manimal or amalgam. Also any of the various mutant templates.
Oh, and, of course, there's always the idea of a druid creature...!
Blarg! So many links!
Anyway, hope some of all these ideas help!
EDIT: dang it! I missed two! And forgot one two three four five six all the daggum things I intended to add!
Also sibrae or boruta or moss lich or fey creature or even an actual nymph (check 'dat wild empathy(+)druid magic, yo), lampad (it's an underground crazy-sad nymph; literally only here 'cause I found it searching for 'nymph'), forlarren (for the almost-nymph-child, eh, "blessed" by demon lords or whatever), dryad ("My mother was a tree." "There's no reason for getting snippy about it-" "No, literally, she was a tree."), debased fey (I don't know, now I'm starting to just throw things out there), nereid (note: sexy, and also transforms), or (wildcard) fey animal, and daggumit why won't these things stooooop.
Oh!
Classical antiquity!
Arg! Too many possibilities!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You all do realize that the most likely effect of the mother's shapechanging would be spontaneous abortion when the changed mother's bodies cannot support the pregnancy, right? Most mutations of the offspring will be fatal, before or after birth. The NPC cited as refusing to subject herself to Magicks during her pregnancy was just being responsible.
Kind of like avoiding drugs, alcohol, toxic exposusures and the like during pregnancy.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
You all do realize that the most likely effect of the mother's shapechanging would be spontaneous abortion when the changed mother's bodies cannot support the pregnancy, right?
Considering how badly wildshape tosses out the laws of conservation of energy in the first place i don't think that "reality" enters into it, at all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I aggree with Daw, but again, that should be always be at GM discretion and counting with the player's opinion.
Magic, anyway, is weird and the ressults could be very varied. From losing the child to changing it to something different.
Also, life often finds its way, so it wouldn't be impossible, with magic involved, that the child survived even if that seemed difficult.
Thinking what different outcomes this could have is an interesting exercice of thought.
My changeling witch has been changing her sex quite often to have fun with her girlfriend in more varied ways and I also think sometimes what could result from that ;-D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Back in the 3.0/3.5 days we had someone who was the Shifter PrC (druid based one that allowed you to change shape multiple times per day) and he played her up as the crazy Mother of Millions who decided that she'd be the mother to Monsters and other critters. Was always pregnant in various forms. I just ran with it as it fit the story narrative.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In a Werewolf game, I decided as a GM to roll a D100 to decide if a character got pregnant. I didn't usually set a high chance of it happening unless it was a mating between two werewolves (which are said to be extremely fertile unions and are also forbidden by law).
There was this character who had a 100% effectivity, he was still a teenager and managed to make pregnant a lot of women.
Once, he had sex with a Mage that was actively using magic to avoid pregnancy. I set a 1% chance that the magic could fail (00 in 1d100). He rolled a 00, of course.
He has now a lot of children all around the World and he is a proud father. Even if he's really young and has to spend a lot of time traveling and fighting he's a really good father and his number one priority are their children. He's also in good terms with all those women.
As he likes children so much and has that 100% effectivity in getting women pregnant I ended adding it to the story and saying he's blessed by a spirit of fertility.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Didn't say the interesting and fun mutations can't happen, in such a magical reality they shouldn't even be all that rare. They just shouldn't be the most likely result. Now the hyperfertile Mother of Monsters is a fixture of myth and legend, so maybe there should be a way of embracing it by embracing chaos. Hail Eris, and Proteus too.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
You all do realize that the most likely effect of the mother's shapechanging would be spontaneous abortion when the changed mother's bodies cannot support the pregnancy, right? Most mutations of the offspring will be fatal, before or after birth. The NPC cited as refusing to subject herself to Magicks during her pregnancy was just being responsible.
Kind of like avoiding drugs, alcohol, toxic exposusures and the like during pregnancy.
Didn't say the interesting and fun mutations can't happen, in such a magical reality they shouldn't even be all that rare. They just shouldn't be the most likely result. Now the hyperfertile Mother of Monsters is a fixture of myth and legend, so maybe there should be a way of embracing it by embracing chaos. Hail Eris, and Proteus too.
I'm not entirely sure this is correct, even by fluff-lore, in Pathfinder and related franchises.
Again, going back to classical antiquity, the minotaur was the result of what amounts to a suggestion spell on a woman, while centaurs were (in one version) merely a dude who'd taken Equus a bit too seriously, so there's certainly ancient precedent.
(The sphinx was merely the child of monsters, from what I recall.)
And even if those are dismissed as, "it was an act of a god" or something similar... there are a metric ton of god-like demon lords, and an actual demonic god who explicitly focus on exactly that kind of thing literally everywhere in Golarion's multiverse, and are constantly on the look out for doing exactly that; and there may well be some anarchy gods, or even (though I know of none) celestial denizens who are up to the same.
Beyond that, how the pregnancy progresses is extremely dependent upon magic's strong tendencies towards being remarkably "safe" (in terms of immediate consequences); looking at polymorph as a subschool (which wildshape references)
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)
Looking at this, this is tremendously informative.
First is this passage:
all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
and
If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
Within, we find:
- gear that should be destroyed instead gets melded in, if entirely unable to function as-normal, but returns, unharmed, at the end of the effect; otherwise, it keeps functioning, even if melded if it is a "constant" effect
- or it alters to fit your new form
This is super-substantial. This means that the spells take into account variations beyond the normal body of the one being changed; things other than your "normal body" are clearly accounted for as part of the transformation magic.
Second, there is this:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
This is a very fascinating thing - what happens to other, linked creatures when you lose class features or racial traits dependent on form?
Well, it doesn't say, directly, but there is a rather striking precedent within the rules: notably the very first ability it receives is "share spells" - allowing the wizard to target the familiar instead of itself, if so desired. But that's not part of its body, so it's only part of the story. Fortunately, that example is further developed. Note this: that tumor is both independent a creature and part of the alchemist's body.
Thus there are two "closest equivalent" rules that potentially cover it: the child still remains, even though it's not possible, ala, "You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function" -; or, even if that doesn't apply, the child is melded into your body (like equipment) but is still functioning, taken from the closest default is a piece of temporarily melded equipment, due to the other closest equivalent of a creature you can have on you when you polymorph (especially permanent things like tattoos or imbedded ioun stones).
Of course, the most important rule is simply this: "the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
Also, the fact that you literally change size, shape, internal organs, external organs, brains, chemistry, and literally everything else about yourself, and are then returned to normal, and suffer literally zero immediate consequences thereafter other than the temporary change itself, means that any such logic must be rendered impotent before such reality-ignoring power.
Seriously, shape-shifting is the least sensible ability magic users have. Ever. There is so much that makes no daggum sense about it... like, for starters, the everything. If we begin enforcing reasonable consequences, the first thing to happen is probably that you instantly lose your sentience and mind and most of your memories upon transformation ('dat animal brain, yo) and those that remain will drive your new creature essence insane, and probably have to either shed or gain mass from somewhere, and that won't end well for anything, and...
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Totally aggree with you, TL. It was a long post, but it was a very interested and well argumented read.
My take on it is shorter: reality is fine as long as it doesn't mess with enjoying the game. And if something doesn't make sense, remember: magic exists and any explanation for it is just an attempt to rationalize it. Magic is just magic.
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Tacticslion wins this thread. Any objections? :P
Seriously, shape-shifting is the least sensible ability magic users have. Ever. There is so much that makes no daggum sense about it... like, for starters, the everything. If we begin enforcing reasonable consequences, the first thing to happen is probably that you instantly lose your sentience and mind and most of your memories upon transformation ('dat animal brain, yo) and those that remain will drive your new creature essence insane, and probably have to either shed or gain mass from somewhere, and that won't end well for anything, and...
In complete defiance of Kileanna's last point (sorry Kileanna), I'd like to point out the wonders of Zero Space. It's a sci-fi concept from the Animorphs books, which is about a load of shapeshifting Teenagers With Attitude. Besides having an arbitrary two-hour limit (sorry Tobias), it's very well explained and SUPER cool. It's basically the point at the end of the cone made of a two-dimensional plane of four-dimensional spacetime, and energy can travel across it at high speeds anywhere in the universe.
Besides the Andalites (space scorpion-centaur-elves who invented Morphing technology) using it for cross-galaxy communication and travel, The Morphing technology stores your matter in Z-Space, including the bits of your brain that would be overcome by the transformation. As such, while your experiences are pushed through the filter of whatever you transform into, your mind is intact but just... elsewhere. You can also draw mass from it too, though I'm not sure if it just has matter floating about, or if you're drawing mass from some black hole somewhere.
It's possible that Pathfinder magic can run on the same principle, since a lot of it deals in planar shenanigans anyway. It would explain how you violate causality with Teleportation, Polymorph bigger and smaller, Evoke fireballs out of thin air (and guano), take Positive or Negative energy from their effective planes... the list goes on. It wouldn't allow you to really mess with peoples' minds like Enchantment, unless you brought them there (there are sorta no defined dimensions, so it's super trippy and you see everything around you from every angle), but other than that it accounts for most of it.
Maybe too much overthinking. That's just one of many possible explanations, but I'd encourage any Arcanist out there to look into the possibility.
(Science and Magic are not mutual anathema; it's just that Magic is so esoteric that it's hard to find a unified theory that covers it... mind you, we're having trouble with that IRL anyway. Just please, check your theme first, writers. We don't want sudden Midichlorians in our Space-Fantasy, even if it does look like Sci-Fi.)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hahah!
There are plenty of pseudo-plausible explanations of shapeshifting, but enforcing them gets... complex, really fast, especially in PF's environments.
EDIT: and I totally agree that magic and science need not be opposed... but they can be...!
(Another good take on shapeshifting is found in Ian Banks' Culture series that actually tries to science that nonsense, and does a moderately decent job of it, too, complete with psychological consequences, but, of course, he doesn't answer the explicit brain-alteration problem, beyond noting that becoming different people/species really messes with your head and thought processes.)
In any event, my point was that trying to put most fantasy theories into anything modelling anything we currently accept as reality results in... problems.
Not even mass/energy problems, you've also got information storage issues, such as ensuring you've got the correct new shape, and the correct return shape ("magic does it" is a hard pill to swallow), and the correct shifting process in between - the calculation power required to rearrange things at such an atomic/subatomic/cellular level to make it function are staggering (and usually result in, "Well, it's easier just to make the thing cease to exist, and build a new one spontaneously in the spot the old one used to be, with fake memories of being the other thing.")... but again, it's an awesome problem to have.
Seriously, though, if I'm getting super-powers, shapeshifting, ala D&D 3.5 is top of the list. Not just because it's super-OP (it is), but because that way I can just kind of tweak all of science in the nose, and probably solve faster-than-light problems just by existing. XD
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have the Culture novels! Haven't read them yet, but they're in the pile.
Not even mass/energy problems, you've also got information storage issues, such as ensuring you've got the correct new shape, and the correct return shape ("magic does it" is a hard pill to swallow), and the correct shifting process in between - the calculation power required to rearrange things at such an atomic/subatomic/cellular level to make it function are staggering (and usually result in, "Well, it's easier just to make the thing cease to exist, and build a new one spontaneously in the spot the old one used to be, with fake memories of being the other thing.")... but again, it's an awesome problem to have.
Animorphs explains that too! The data-pattern for growing the species is stored in your own DNA, which is the most information-dense substance we know of. We also know it can hold the biological pattern for morphing into things, because your embryo did it, and we also know that it has a lot of empty space. This, however, means that you need to, before being able to transform into anything, take its DNA into your own body through a melee touch-attack. This also has a convenient Daze effect on the animal so it doesn't kill you, which they get a Will save to resist. Since Druids are connected to all of nature at once, it makes sense that they can just choose what to shift into depending on how powerful they are. (Which also makes sense; you can't transform into super tiny or big stuff at first because that requires too much effort to push through Z-Space. Similarly, beings without DNA such as Elementals would require too much computational power.)
The computational power to actually transform you so rapidly seems to be inherent to the Escafil Device, the blue cube-like object that can confer the Morphing ability to any organism (including non-sentient ones, sorry Ant Cassie). Pathfinder's explanation for this could be that Magic is slightly sentient (which makes sense given intelligent weapons and animal companions) and handles it all for you. Either that or all of nature acts as a super-computer in the case of Druids.
The return shape is similarly coded into your DNA, though it seemingly corrupts after two hours along with the rest of your morphing ability, so be sure to keep track of time (handily, their Andalite teammate has an inherent ability to keep track of time, presumably developed with the Morphing technology in mind). Pathfinder Polymorphing clearly just removes the option of being stuck as a Nothlit (post-two-hour morpher), and has a set time limit.
This, however, has almost nothing to do with Druid babies. Sorry, OP.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love the Mage:the Ascension take on it.
Consensual reality: it can happen if enough people think it can happen. Science is just another way to explain things, not a better or worse way.
By the way, don't apologize for disaggreeing. If we all aggreed all threads would be really short.
Or all threads will made of people saying «+1» and TL dotting.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love the Mage:the Ascension take on it.
Consensual reality: it can happen if enough people think it can happen. Science is just another way to explain things, not a better or worse way.
Discworld has a similar take on it, but fuses it a bit more with Quantum Physics and has fun with Anthroporphic Personifications like Death suddenly being unsure about people's impending doom because of the damned Uncertainty Principle.
Also I completely agree with the disagreements thing, ironically. Disagreement fosters creativity and learning, which are the two sources of real-life Magic. (Another source is warfare and the classic arms-race, but that's less efficient and more scary so let's stop thinking about it.)
True, but that sort of transhumanism is not really what I'm talking about.
he's also got the one novel, his first novel, in fact, named Consider Phlebas, with the actual, you know, Changer - someone capable of the feat in a fast enough manner that it actually permits him to replace others. It is all very well explained, but the days-long duration is still too rapid to account for the breadth of changes they are able to undergo, even with retrovirus utilization, under out current understanding.
It's like saying, "Ah, don't worry - they don't actually go faster than light, they just go light speed!"
It's seriously one of the best naturalistic takes on it, but it's still not really feasible in any way we understand it.
Mr. Banks and all his works are awesome, but he also has things like (in that same book) Dra'Azon, which, again, violate known laws of physics - it's even part of the lore that such creatures do so. This is not a bad thing, merely pointing out that it's not an infinitely recursive set of scientifically accurate phenomena - it's a really well made novel with an awesome eye toward making things sound plausible.
Similarly, relying on DNA to hold the secrets to successfully changing from one base form to another is... not ideal, in any way that we understand. Again, it's easier, in modern scientific understanding, to just say, "The magical machine processes how what the new body is, obliterates the current one, and makes a new one." There is never a point at which that kind of information exchange makes sense, physically, to accomplish the gist of what you're trying to do.
It's still super-awesome, and exactly the kind of ability I'd want, if I could get it.
I really want to be clear: in stating, "This doesn't really work like it looks like it works in the book." that is, by no means, stating, "This thing sucks."
Quite the opposite - I love the heavy thinking that was clearly done to develop the Animorphs concept, and they method by which it functions is actually pretty solid.
Incidentally, if you're tying to extraplanar elements, you'll want to consider the astral plane - PF's method of teleportation - as well as what happens when you're hit by a dimensional anchor spell-effect. Also, also, at-best, I'd suggest that magic is a non-sentient but extremely intelligent force - basically a computational-style program - that reacts to extremely specific stimuli in extremely specific circumstances, as programmed by "magic hackers" (aka wizards and other arcane casters; or gods; or whatever) when they "discover" and "prepare" their spells (or grant them to a follower). Lots of awesome potential in all of that.
(If magic is sentient, I'd suggest that it's quasi-sentient - it may well have a high intelligence, but possibly little to no effective wisdom or charisma; or maybe it's all wisdom or charisma and no intelligence; or maybe it's something else entirely, 'cause it doesn't quite map to a mind; or maybe it's Mystra [/Forgotten Realms reference].)
I love this stuff, but until a cogent argument for how to deal with the heat-energy build up, material sciences, and nanotechnology can actually be crafted in a way that's not just, "It does, and kind of sounds plausible, even though we know of nothing like that actually working." it doesn't quite pan out in real-reality.
... but it's still super-awesome, and I love it.
(But, yeah - midichlorians was a step too far, for me, too, even if it does kind of make some of the EU stuff make sense...)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This, however, has almost nothing to do with Druid babies. Sorry, OP.
Oh, no, that's fine. I'm enjoying where this thread is going.
On the subject of shapeshifters, I've enjoyed the kandra from Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn novels. They "eat" people's bones and can morph their bodies to look and sound just like them, but they can also create they're own bones and look like anyone they desire, and there's no real outward way to tell who is and is not a kandra. Depending on the age of the kandra, they can do this over a matter of hours or mere minutes.
On the subject of intelligent magic vs. force magic, there's some interesting thoughts on that. Does the magic of Pathfinder have a mind, or at the very least an instinct that causes it to do what it does? When an item becomes intelligent, is that an aspect of the magic in the "universe" coming out to be able to communicate with the world? It's a fun thought process.
Going back to the original topic of can a druid get pregnant when in wild shape and what kind of baby/pregnancy would she have if any, there's a lot of good debate here about it. I can see that RAW makes it seem like it wouldn't work like that. However, GMs can rule that it does, with the permission of the characters involved, obviously (which I agree with).
I personally think magic is strange enough to allow some odd combinations to come about. It does bring up the question of where DID doppelgangers and half-man/half-animal species come from in this world? Evolution? Created by one of the gods? Mutation? Or freaky druid sex? They all seem like valid options.
I personally think magic is strange enough to allow some odd combinations to come about. It does bring up the question of where DID doppelgangers and half-man/half-animal species come from in this world? Evolution? Created by one of the gods? Mutation? Or freaky druid sex? They all seem like valid options.
The answer is, "Yes, probably." at least in PF as it currently stands.
That said, depending on how you've structured your campaign system, various of those could be the "correct" answer, or none of them.
Oh, and, though it's my own point I'm about to contrast, I wanted to add: though magic is relatively safe, in any sort of immediate sense, in Pathfinder, magic is not infinitely clean, and can have deleterious effects (see also wishcraft*); that said, even have positive or simply non-negative effects as well, and such major side effects come with only massive amounts of magical force and effort all repeatedly shoved into a singular area.
That, though, combined with bloodlines (to say nothing of templates and monsters and... okay, I'll stop there) indicates that magical forces can generally create lasting permanent changes, even while being "safe" for a user insomuch as there is no evident, immediate harm, and, by rules, a druid can be polymorphed for every hour of every day of their lives with absolutely zero consequences.
This is one of the reasons I kept using "immediate consequence" in that post about it that I made above - there is little to no immediate consequence of spellcasting other than the effect itself, at which point things go back to a relative status quo, as if the spell had not been cast (depending, of course, on the nature of the spell; instantaneous spells need not apply); long-term consequences, however, may be different.
On to the sentience of magic: if a sentient item is considered to be the evidence of the innate sentience of magic, you're going to quickly run into trouble when intelligent items quickly come into conflict with each other, and have opposing special purposes (complete with special purposes of "make sure to eradicate all spellcasters" and "make sure to defend, promote, and grow the numbers of all spellcasters" as valid options for two). In your own campaign, this can be neatly resolved, but in Golarion-related franchises (without house rules, and/or altering setting-fluff, which is cool), you're going to need a method of reconciling that apparent-problem. :)
Note: I'm not saying it's wrong (just like I wasn't saying Banks, or Animorphs, or kandra, or the Halfblood Chronicles (so awesome!) are wrong; rather, I'm saying you have to justify it in-universe, 'cause we don't have anything resembling that in ours (and PF is contradictory enough that it can be presumed to have no universal truth, or a "weird" and "non-standard" universal truth in that regard), and thus any direct attempts at mapping are... fraught with peril.
*
So... also, a thought: what about a Druid who gets pregnant in an alternate form: for example, a human Druid in dwarf form gets pregnant with a Dwarven child, and...?
I think such a question is also worth considering when determining outcomes, because while such a thing is mild, compared to, say, a therianthrope or or their weirdness, it's still within the same realm of questioning.
As an aside: does anyone here watch Isaac Arthur on YouTube?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Typically, polymorph effects don't change your type and subtype. Normally, humans can't breed with dwarves to begin with - so even in dwarf 'form', I don't think the Druid would get pregnant.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Shapeshifting dragons can produce half-dragon offspring, so there's at least some precedent for shapeshifting resulting in unusual hybrids. Not necessarily the most common result, though.
We don't need common, so long as the precedent is there. That means it CAN happen. And since magic can sometimes be strange and unpredictable, there's a chance that a druid can get pregnant. I guess it's up to the GM and the player what happens from there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as changing while pregnant Easiest explanation is your baby goes to the same place your cloths go.
I would say dragons demons angels etc. are special cases that break natural laws for reproduction everyone else has the species barrier that should not be broken.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as changing while pregnant Easiest explanation is your baby goes to the same ysplace your cloths go.
I would say dragons demons angels etc. are special cases that break natural laws for reproduction everyone else has the species barrier that should not be broken.
You should add Humans to the list. So adaptable they can breed with most anything, even though the result is not always a half-breed
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I probably won't I don't think half-elfs/orc really make sense unless all 3 races have the same genetic ancestor, but of course fantasy setting works on different rules. Never the less I shall have no half-donkeys or whatever.
(See the manimal template listed above. Still, that's fair.)
You can also add half-Vulcans to that list!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As far as changing while pregnant Easiest explanation is your baby goes to the same place your cloths go.
I would say dragons demons angels etc. are special cases that break natural laws for reproduction everyone else has the species barrier that should not be broken.
But somewhere along the lines they were broken. In one of my posts above, I bring up the question of where they various race-like half-human/half-animal creatures come from if there was no interbreeding somewhere along the line? Was it an evolutionary process? Were they created by one of the gods? Was it a mutation that somehow defied the laws of nature and survived? Or was it just freaky druid sex that the baby(ies) survived?
Obviously, we may never know the real answer to this unless Paizo releases an origins book for that (which, come to think of it, that might be really cool).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are some races that can come from different sources. I.e. skinchangers seem to come from curses, breeding, a lycantropic ancestry...
Geniekin, IIRC can come from breeding with genies, but also to a huge influence of the elemental planes (such as being gestated on them) and I don't remember, but I think some other creatures different from genies but aligned with an element coul give birth to geniekin.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Forgotten Realms- Genasi or whatever their Paizo equivalent would be are examples of elementally affected planetouched.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't consider Magic to be fully sentient, at least not on a level humans can understand, but I do think that it's of an intelligence level far beyond anything else in the Pathfinder universe. The God of the stuff is insane for a reason, methinks.
As to why magic weapons fight, I'd argue that as far as Magic is concerned, those are merely aspects of its personality: have you never felt contradicting emotions? One weapon could want to destroy all Spellcasters because Magic was feeling particularly used that moment, while another could desire nothing more than peace and harmony because Magic was in a good mood that day.
I have to say, I'm loving this thread.
well if you get right down to it babies are parasitic growths. and as such part of their mothers. and if you change the mom, you change her body and that means the baby would change as well. a pregnant druid would become a pregnant wolf. she should not become a seahorse because they don't carry the child it would abort the child..... >.> druidic abortion change your shape into a seahorse and worry no more about that baby. that aside male seahorses carry the baby.
.......>.> yea baby is part of mommy it gets changed as well or it gets attacked as a foreigner by mommies immune system. though it would takes some time depending on how far along the child if it was a few cells it may not last long but beyond that it may survive. but the damage would probably be..... (whats the word for stacks). having the birth have a higher and higher percent chance of failing the longer mommy stays in beast form. the embryos might survive the first few times while the mother shapes shifts but she would risk reabsorbing them into her body (how ever long something like that takes).
personally, I am all for the first option. that of both parties (baby and mother) changing together. having the baby vanish with her cloths what would keep the baby alive while in limbo.
but just take what I say with a grain of sand. i could just be talking out my ass. but that's how i would call it.
I can see it going either way, really.
This is assuming that both the GM and the player is alright with this of course, but a GM could really have some fun with this concept.