My sorcerer idea suddenly seems very disappointing


Advice


So I created a sorceress with the Abyssal bloodline with a focus on Conjuration spells, thinking she'd be able to do all this cool summoning stuff with demons and the like - just realised she can't even cast Lesser Planar Binding until level 10. So is she stuck with summoning eagles and maybe the occasional weak elemental until then? She's just getting close to level 6...

I'm sure I read somewhere you can start using Planar Binding at level 8, but it doesn't look like that's actually the case.


At 5th level can't you summon a dretch?

Dark Archive

You have the power of your bloodline arcana from level 1. That DR certainly doesn't hurt, and rarely will you fight Good foes. At least in most games.

Augment summoning is a solid feat to take as a bloodline feat.
Superior summoning is also fantastic to take as a regular feat.

The regular summon monster spell line is pretty strong; what are you disappointed about?


No, sorcerers can't cast 3rd level spells until 6th level, and that would require Summon Monster 3. Summon monster is mostly animals, which isn't really what I was going for
(lists here - http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/summonMonster.html)

Liberty's Edge

There's also some really strong, flexible spells on the conjuration list. There is Grease at level 1, Summon Pit, Web and Glitterdust at level 2, Stinking Cloud at level 3, Black Tentacles at level 4.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, most of the summon monster list consists of animals. They do get either the fiendish or celestial template, so you are basically summoning a demonic eagle or dolphin. You have to consider that even the weakest demon, the lowly dretch, is a tough encounter for a level 1 party, as it has DR and can cast stinking cloud 1/day.

Have you considered the Summoner? That might fit your concept better. You can get a customizable demon that grows in power along with you, which is pretty cool, plus they are still pretty good conjurers.


Outsiders appear on much later summon lists. You can take Summon Evil Monster and perhaps grab a couple of lower level demons. But wizards are better at this and it still takes time.


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Be aware that Planar Binding, while powerful, is significantly riskier than using Summon Monster. You need a Magic Circle against Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and gold to make an offer at minimum. Beside that, you can summon demons at level 1. The "Fiendish" template creates demonic creatures, and at SM3, you can summon true demons. So, when you hit 6, you can summon your true demons to your heart's content.


Yeah planar binding is some powerful stuff. It is worth the wait

In the mean time you have a few different options

1. Making a deal with a more powerful caster. Service for service is a perfectly fair deal and adds some fun RP
2. Summoning focus. Summon monster spell series is quite powerful. Read up on Proffessor Q's guide(he has a mini section for summon monster spells) and the whyworkwhenyoucangetotherstodoitforyou summoning guide. Sad but true that reading makes sorcerers more powerful too
3. Max out UMD and buy some scrolls. Note: expensive
4. Depending on your dm's rules interpretation and willingness to allow cheese, go into the Pathfinder Savant(seekers of secrets) prc and grab the planar binding spells early from the summoner spell list. Probably need a feat retrain to do this
5. Ask to retrain for a bloodline familiar then take improved familiar


Some classes - not sorcerers - can get lesser planar ally to do something like planar binding at 7th-8th level.

Things that you can do besides the simple summon monster spells before 10th include getting the summon guardian spirit feat for a more magical, 1 minute/level summons, or sacrificing your 1st level bloodline ability for a familiar then getting the improved familiar feat.


If you're planning on going the summoning route, try the Summon Evil Monsters feat, the Expanded Summon Monster feat, or the Evolved Summon Monster feat. Casters, especially conjurers, are exponential characters: their choices suck at early levels. These feats can help you expand your options and make do with what you have.


Spontaneously Summoning a demon before level 6, multiple times a day, sounds like an unrealistic expectation to me.

The summoning based feats (already mentioned above) add to your bloodline features, turning your 1d3 fiendish vipers into 1d3+1 fiendish augmented evolved abyssal vipers [+4STR & +4CON from augmented, +2nat AC from armored evolution, SR and energy resistance from fiendish template, plus the DR from your bloodline]

You look up vipers and see they're pretty weak.
But add all the modifiers and these values...

viper:
AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 size)
hp 3 (1d8–1)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
Str 4, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 2
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 8 (can't be tripped)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 9; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con; cure 1 save.

become these values

fiendish augmented evolved abyssal vipers:
AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, +2 size)
hp 5 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +1
Str 8, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 2
Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 10 (can't be tripped)
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 11; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con; cure 1 save.
DR 2/good, fire resist 5, cold resist 5, Spell Resistance 5, Smite good 1/day (+1 damage)

When you look at it that way it's not so bad for a level 2 spell.

To add flavor I like to name my summons. Summoning "fiendish vipers" instead is stated as summoning "Abyssal pit vipers of Nossatu" or some equally gimmicky term. Especially if they become my favorites. I sometimes name them individually if they're actual demons, and if I ever get to use planar binding I call them up and form partnerships with them, offering wealth, and power, and captured prisoners, and territory, in exchange for services.

I advise you reconsider selecting Planar Binding for spells known... sorcerer spells known are precious and few, and best reserved for regular use spells, and for taking advantage of your CHA and caster level. Those spells which you use rarely (like planar binding), or which don't depend much on caster level or charisma (like Crafter's Fortune, or Enlarge Person) are best reserved for scrolls and/or wands. Remember that you're a sorcerer, and so using wizard scrolls and arcane wands is trivial for you (no UMD required; just use your caster level).

EDIT: A note about the Abyssal bloodline...
Not only do you get some nice summoning features, but you also get some degree of personal combat strength, and sorcerers get proficiency in all simple weapons (like longspears and javelins and slings and heavy maces). You might want to consider spells which make use of it (like Polymorph subschool) which doesn't hamper your sorcery (like Monstrous Physique, or Undead Anatomy). Your class abilities (such as the Claws and Strength of the Abyss bloodline features) are still available, so you can become an unusually strong Gargoyle, flying around, armed with a longspear, summoning demonic beings... as an example. Just something to consider.


Thanks for all the advice. I will look into the feats mentioned. The 'fiendish augmented evolved abyssal vipers' are certainly a lot more impressive :)

Unfortunately, she has a low strength score (8), so she can't usually take advantage of the Claws. In retrospect, it might have been better to have picked one of the higher scores for strength, but it has been a good source of amusement.


LucyG92 wrote:

Thanks for all the advice. I will look into the feats mentioned. The 'fiendish augmented evolved abyssal vipers' are certainly a lot more impressive :)

Unfortunately, she has a low strength score (8), so she can't usually take advantage of the Claws. In retrospect, it might have been better to have picked one of the higher scores for strength, but it has been a good source of amusement.

Yeah, mono-sorcerers get little, if any, use out of the melee abilities. Most people end up taking Abyssal solely for the level 15 ability. You can even "cheat" that with a Robe of Arcance Heritage to get it early (unless they nerfed that item while I wasn't looking).


retrain to a master summoner way way better at summoning


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lady-J wrote:
retrain to a master summoner way way better at summoning

Yeah, we had a level 3 human master summoner in our evil game who could summon 4 fiendish eagles, each with 2 talons, 2 wing buffets, and a bite, for 20 smite good attacks every round by themselves.

Then, if needed, he would conjure a second flock on round 2...


Not to worry! If the character is evil and you can spare the feat, you can improve on this problem with Summon Evil Monster. At first level, it just gives you creepier animals. (Also a pony, for some reason.) At fourth, though, you can now call up a soul condemned to the Abyss! You also get a nasty little CE gremlin. As an added bonus, a lot of your summons improve to standard actions.


Ravingdork wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
retrain to a master summoner way way better at summoning

Yeah, we had a level 3 human master summoner in our evil game who could summon 4 fiendish eagles, each with 2 talons, 2 wing buffets, and a bite, for 20 smite good attacks every round by themselves.

Then, if needed, he would conjure a second flock on round 2...

FYI, you can't use evolved summoned monster to give extra attacks to small creatures.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah. I realized that shortly after posting and have already informed our group.

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