Calling Kineticist experts: Help me choose


Advice

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Scarab Sages

So I've been itching to play a Kineticist ever since the class came out — now I'm finally getting round to building one. Yay! :) I still find it a bit difficult to imagine how different Kineticists will behave in a real game.

We seem to be aiming at Iron Gods so far. I like the idea of playing an electric Kineticist, perhaps even an android herself, who shorts out enemy robots with lightning strikes. I'd want a physical blast as well in case I meet lightning-immune or infinite-SR creatures, or simply creatures with low AC where the damage bonus from the physical blast would pull ahead. This would normally lock me into Thunderstorm or Charged Water, but my DM is willing to allow an Electric/Earth composite blast (Superconductor, maybe?) so as not to artifically limit my choices. I believe Mark Seifter Himself said the limitation on published composite blasts was due to space reasons and not for game balance reasons, so that should be fine.

Now, assuming an Electric/Earth combo, would you recommend starting out Electric or Earth? I figure Electric touch attacks might help counter the many cover and concealment penalties I'll have in the beginning (or even just the lack of Precise Shot in case I don't go human). Then again, touch and regular AC aren't usually all that much different in early levels, I have Kinetic Blade for cramped situations, and hitting with iteratives will only become relevant once I have both attacks anyway.

Starting with Electric would get me flight and Chain earlier (6th and 11th), but flight might not be as awesome as it sounds in what's supposed to be a dungeon-heavy campaign. Then again, Earth Glide also presumably doesn't work in metallic dungeons... I suppose I could go Thunderstorm after all to get Torrent at 7th, but then I'd miss out on the nice defenses of Earth. Argh!

I suppose Charged Water would also be a possibility. Starting with Water blast and Slick, getting Electric at 7th and Torrent as my first AoO at 9th... It's hard to beat Earth in terms of defense, but if Earth Glide isn't applicable most of the time, Water doesn't fall behind all that much, and is perhaps more flexible.

Speaking of AoOs, I must say I'm also tempted to go Fire/Earth or even Fire/Fire just to be able to use AoOs from the beginning. Then again, I'm scared of ending up useless against many enemies, and it would be a pity to give up the thematic advantage of electric vs robots...

What are your experiences with these things? Is Fire or Electric a dangerous gamble in the early levels?

On a side note, I noticed the Elemental Whispers utility talent (and its Greater variant) that seems to have come out recently and that is not yet covered in the Kineticist guides. Personally, I like the idea of being able to summon a familiar for scouting purposes and getting a familiar bonus on top. If you pick Greater, you can even get a +1/+1 on to-hit and damage from the resonance power of the Wysp. Worth it? (I might just get it simply for the RP value...)

BTW: NO IRON GODS SPOILERS please.


I'm running an Iron Gods game and we have an android Earth kineticist. Having the ability to bypass certain physical damage reductions (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) has been very handy to him. There are quite a few monsters with vulnerability to electricity (robots typically are). He just got access to earth glide around level 10 and it's been usual in many places, though completely useless in metal dungeons.

It's really a toss up between electricity and earth, really. Though, your touch AC will come into play much, much more than in usual games. If I had to suggest, start with electricity and use regular ranged weapons when your blasts are useless. When you get your second element, get a physical blast. Sadly, earth and air don't mix for a composite blast. Water might be your best bet for the physical blast. I don't recommend fire blast.

If you have other specific questions, I'd be happy to help, spoiler free.

Scarab Sages

Energy blasts are only dangerous if the campaign is heavy on SR or imminities, that's something you should talk to your GM about. I'd consider it less of a spoiler and more of a "you're not gonna have a lot of fun if nothing you do works" I don't know the campaign so I can't say.

Air and Earth are both great elements, I love my Geokineticist because he's impossible to kill. My GF loves her Aerokineticist because flight is fun. At early levels you are right, touch and regular AC are about the same - so you have to look at the other aspects to decide. Which defense do you like more? and do you want to fly all the time at level 6? or do you want to move blocks of earth all day at level 8?

There isn't really a wrong choice, just one that you might personally find less fun. Kineticists have a high skill floor, it's really hard to be bad unless you're throwing fire at fire elementals.

Elemental Whispers is amazing, I love it to bits. Since they are familiars I like to make them Sages, covers the low skill ranks that Kineticists get.


If you're able to use 3rd party, N. Jolly, the guy who wrote basically all the 3p content for the class and the guide, actually wrote a machine element in the 3p suppliment magitech archetypes, which would actually jive really well with Iron Gods.

Dark Archive

DeathlessOne wrote:
Sadly, earth and air don't mix for a composite blast. Water might be your best bet for the physical blast.

Element(s) air and earth; Type composite blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 2

Prerequisite(s) air blast, earth blast
Blast Type: physical; Damage piercing and slashing

You use your air to churn up sand, firing a flensing gust at a foe.

Silver Crusade

TurquoiseMouse is referring to Sandstorm Blast.


I don't know about that AP so I'll just address the class itself.

If you're going for the theme then air/air or air[electric]/water would be good choices. Your air defense talent isn't the best but it'll keep those ranged attacks from hitting you. Also, if you are worried about being able to penetrate SR then there are feats like Spell Penetration and Expanded Metakinesis(Penetrating Spell) to help with that.

As an air kineticist you can get air's reach and become an uber range artillery blaster. Elemental Whispers + Greater are pretty good pick ups imo. Getting an Air Wysp would be a good addition to get and you could even apply the Sage familiar archetype if your party is lacking in knowledge checks.

Scarab Sages

Thanks for all the replies! :)

DeathlessOne: OK, thanks, that's reassuring.

Quote:
Sadly, earth and air don't mix for a composite blast.

As I mentioned, my DM is willing to allow for an electric/earth composite blast. I suppose something like this would be in order:

Conductor blast
Element(s) air and earth; Type composite blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 2
Prerequisite(s) electric blast, earth blast
Blast Type: physical; Damage half piercing, half electricity

You hurl a spike of conductive ore at your foe and channel an arc of lightning through it.

Compatible infusions: Like Earth blast, plus Magnetic Infusion.

Mark Seifter, if you're reading this, it would be really cool to get your stamp of approval in terms of game balance. :)

Elegant Egotist: Thanks, that sounds interesting! Although I'm trying to do without 3rd-party material.

Turquoise Mouse, PCScipio: I was trying to include the Electric Blast in particular, so Sandstorm Blast doesn't help.

Texas Snyper: I didn't know about Expanded Metakinesis... cool, that looks like a great option to have!


Taser blast, surely.

While elemental whispers looks good, allow nothing to delay your at-will flight; Wings of Air is your 6th level aerokineticist's wild talent or you lose the right to the name.

Scarab Sages

avr wrote:
Taser blast, surely.

A bit cheesy though, innit? ;o)

Quote:
While elemental whispers looks good, allow nothing to delay your at-will flight; Wings of Air is your 6th level aerokineticist's wild talent or you lose the right to the name.

I absolutely love at-will flight; I've had ample time to revel in it with my Beastmorph Vivisectionist a while back, and my current Agathion Eidolon is enjoying it just as much. I've just been wondering whether that wouldn't go to waste in a dungeon-heavy campaign. But I suppose not all of the action takes place in dungeons, and they might be cavernous for all I know.

Scarab Sages

Just looked at the Sage Familiar: Seems like a lot of fun! :)

From a crunch perspective, I figure a hedgehog (+2 Will) or compsognathus (+4 initiative) would be the most valuable, but from a RP perspective, I'd probably rather have a thrush that I could send on scouting flights and talk to afterwards. Though the hedgehog's +19 Stealth is pretty cool for scouting.

I'm not even sure if the Greater version of the talent is really greater. Sure, +1/+1 attack/damage is extremely valuable for a Kineticist, but making the familiar killable is a step backward. I just realized the wysp's Servitor ability is really useful out of combat, though. Nice!

Scarab Sages

The other upside to the Greater version is that Outsiders come with more skill points and they still qualify for Sage, that's what I'm doing and it's pretty nice.

Scarab Sages

Btw, depending on the party, I could imagine biting the bullet and going Overwhelming Soul (gasp!) to double as the face. Has anyone tried that out?


The problem with the first talent is that it takes constant concentration on your part for it to manifest and interact with the surroundings, and can only go out 30 feet. The greater talent gives you the full proper familiar and you don't need to worry about it being "killable" because it takes half your HP which is usually more than the party fighter.

And don't go Overwhelming Soul, it is a trap. Kinetic Knight is the only archetype worth getting. It also gives you diplomacy and sense motive as class skills but then your changing from a ranged blaster into a melee tank. Although the melee person with at-will flight would probably be very nice.


Texas Snyper wrote:

The problem with the first talent is that it takes constant concentration on your part for it to manifest and interact with the surroundings, and can only go out 30 feet. The greater talent gives you the full proper familiar and you don't need to worry about it being "killable" because it takes half your HP which is usually more than the party fighter.

And don't go Overwhelming Soul, it is a trap. Kinetic Knight is the only archetype worth getting. It also gives you diplomacy and sense motive as class skills but then your changing from a ranged blaster into a melee tank. Although the melee person with at-will flight would probably be very nice.

The familiar is manifested within 30ft but after that it can go any distance away as long as you concentrate or it doesn't take damage.

Scarab Sages

Texas Snyper wrote:
and can only go out 30 feet.

That's just the initial summoning; after that, «it can move any distance away from you».

I guess I could do Diplomacy even without a sky-high Cha, especially as long as I have the thrush familiar with +3 Diplomacy, and later the Wysp with its +4 Aid Another (though it might just creep people out instead).

I wasn't aware of the Kinetic Knight... doesn't sound too appealing to me on first read, though. No ranged attacks, ever...? No metakinesis? No sensible way to use composite blasts? And some abilities actually requiring heavy armor and an attuned shield (which costs Burn) makes me as claustrophobic.


Quote:
As a standard action, you can give the voice of the element the body of such a creature, using elemental matter of the appropriate element within 30 feet. As long as you concentrate, the familiar can take actions as a normal animal of its type, and it can move any distance away from you, though if it takes any damage or you cease concentrating, it returns to your mind.

It takes a standard action to manifest it. It then requires concentration for it to take actions as normal, including moving any distance away from you.

@Catharsis: Yes it is a pure melee archetype but well built for anybody who wants that kind of set up. But it works pretty well for what it is. The loss of metakinesis isn't that big of a deal since they usually don't want to gather power and instead favor full attacks. If that isn't what you want then skip it. You can also get diplomacy as a class skill via a few traits.


"The kinetic knight can use her Constitution score in place of her Intelligence score when qualifying for combat feats. This ability counts as having Combat Expertise for the purpose of feat prerequisites."
Get Artful Dodge and that makes both dex and int prereqs come off con instead. There's got to be something interesting I can do with that. Redirect Attack for a start.

No, nothing to do with your aerokineticist. Never mind.


I always suggest small races with a dex bonus for kineticists... but if you're positivie your chosen element will work, human is good too. Precise Shot will take care of the penalty for shooting in melee, but you still have to worry about soft cover, so the blade, even at lvl 1 when you have to gather power to use it, is pretty useful.
Also... I love the idea of having a summonable familiar that can't really die, plus at worse it's two feats for an utility talent. (Trap bait, scouting, I see endless possibilities)
I agree with just about everyone that flight is more important than everything, even if the AP is dungeon heavy (I have no idea) not all dungeons are only 5-10 feet high


earth and earth for metal controling theres lots of metal in iron gods also would not sugest air(lightning) there may be a few things vulnerable to lightning but there are just as many things that get healed/hasted by it aswell(atleast in my playthrough of it) and if you use metal composite blasts if you carry arround adamantine you could shread through most creatures who have hardness or dr

Scarab Sages

Lady-J wrote:
earth and earth for metal controling theres lots of metal in iron gods

Not sure what you mean by that. Shift Earth, Earth Climb, Earth Glide etc. specifically don't work on metal.

Lady-J wrote:
would not sugest air(lightning) there may be a few things vulnerable to lightning but there are just as many things that get healed/hasted by it aswell(atleast in my playthrough of it)

Argh, that's even worse than immunity. :( If that happens with any kind of regularity before level 7, it might be worth starting out with Earth and taking Electric at 7th.

I'm also not opposed to an Earth/Metal build, I do like the flavor a lot. I'm just wondering whether I wouldn't miss the option of a touch attack. Then again, I suppose I could just pick up firearm proficiency and carry a raygun for those cases. ;o)

I could also imagine an Earth/Fire build, with AoOs starting at 7th and plenty of non-Fire capability against resistant enemies. After all, in a campaign with laser guns, fire can't be all that ineffective, can it? ;o)

Scarab Sages

Alderic wrote:
I always suggest small races with a dex bonus for kineticists... but if you're positivie your chosen element will work, human is good too.

I love the idea of a Halfling or Gnome Kineticist. The only drawbacks are (1) that I have to wait until 5th level to have both Precise Shot and Finesse and (2) I miss out on the RP opportunity of playing an android. (I imagine certain abilities might be unlocked by automated «firmware updates» that are being downloaded from an unknown source, or failures at doing stuff resulting in a message urging the user to upgrade to a premium subscription...)

Alderic wrote:
Precise Shot will take care of the penalty for shooting in melee, but you still have to worry about soft cover, so the blade, even at lvl 1 when you have to gather power to use it, is pretty useful.

I am definitely picking up Kinetic Blade and Finesse. I'm just wondering whether I should do it before or after PBS/Precise Shot. Blade has the benefit of being usable right at 1st level, whereas I can get Precise Shot at 3rd at the earliest if I'm not human.


TurquoiseMouse wrote:
DeathlessOne wrote:
Sadly, earth and air don't mix for a composite blast. Water might be your best bet for the physical blast.

Element(s) air and earth; Type composite blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 2

Prerequisite(s) air blast, earth blast
Blast Type: physical; Damage piercing and slashing

You use your air to churn up sand, firing a flensing gust at a foe.

Apologies, I should have clarified. I meant an earth blast and electric blast do not combine to form a composite blast. The OP was talking about fire and/or electricity being useful.

Lady-J wrote:
there may be a few things vulnerable to lightning but there are just as many things that get healed/hasted by it aswell(atleast in my playthrough of it) and if you use metal composite blasts if you carry arround adamantine you could shread through most creatures who have hardness or dr

I must be mis-remembering things then. The vast majority of robots that you encounter are vulnerable to electricity. There are a FEW creature that have immunity/healed by electricity but they tend to be few and far between.

I scanned the first two books briefly to make sure and there are hardly a handful of them. I'd suggest knowledge dungeoneering and religion so that you can spot them easily, because they tend to be some sort of undead (or mechanically enhanced undead), aberrations, or a type of golem. By the time you hit the 3rd book (and 7th level), you should have your second blast and don't have to worry much about being shut down by electricity resistant or immune creatures. The 3rd book is relatively empty of electricity resistant things compared to the first two books.


I also wouldn't worry too much about composite blasts 'till lvl 11. Before then you have to gather power for a full round or take burn to use one, might as well empower a simple blast.

Scarab Sages

Thanks for the pointers, though it's getting dangerously close to spoiler territory.

Quote:
I scanned the first two books briefly to make sure and there are hardly a handful of them. I'd suggest knowledge dungeoneering and religion so that you can spot them easily, because they tend to be some sort of undead (or mechanically enhanced undead), aberrations, or a type of golem. By the time you hit the 3rd book (and 7th level), you should have your second blast and don't have to worry much about being shut down by electricity resistant or immune creatures. The 3rd book is relatively empty of electricity resistant things compared to the first two books.

If anything, that speaks in favor of going Earth first and Electric second... but I guess I should just go with what I prefer from the RP perspective (which is Air, I guess) and just be creative about monsters where electric attacks are a bad idea. Maybe I can place timed Kinetic Covers to hinder the monster's retaliation against my teammates... oh wait, that's Earth again. ;o) Hmmm...


If you are starting out with lightning blast then you don't need PBS/PS right away. You are targetting touch AC for your first 6 levels which is pretty easy. Instead you can get weapon finesse at lvl 1 and then wait til as late as 5 for PBS and then 7 for PS when you get your physical blast, whichever you chose.

Scarab Sages

Texas Snyper wrote:
If you are starting out with lightning blast then you don't need PBS/PS right away. You are targetting touch AC for your first 6 levels which is pretty easy. Instead you can get weapon finesse at lvl 1 and then wait til as late as 5 for PBS and then 7 for PS when you get your physical blast, whichever you chose.

Meh, I'm not too comfortable with that. If I have, say, +7 to hit at 3rd level and have to hit a Touch AC of 13 at a –4, that's only a 50% chance. More often than not, I'll probably also have a teammate or door in the way for another –4, at which point PBS and PS would make an extreme difference. But yeah, being able to melee with lightning blast is a good option to have, even if the already low damage of the blast gets deprived of Overflow and PBS damage...

Scarab Sages

Alderic wrote:
I also wouldn't worry too much about composite blasts 'till lvl 11. Before then you have to gather power for a full round or take burn to use one, might as well empower a simple blast.

Still, when you reach 11th level and figure out you have no composite blast available, it's too late. :Þ


Catharsis wrote:
Thanks for the pointers, though it's getting dangerously close to spoiler territory.

Yeah, I tried to keep that about as vague as possible. If it makes you feel any better, I did not mention whether these were creatures in your direct path, wandering/random monsters, or part of optional sub-quests.

Quote:
If anything, that speaks in favor of going Earth first and Electric second... but I guess I should just go with what I prefer from the RP perspective (which is Air, I guess) and just be creative about monsters where electric attacks are a bad idea. Maybe I can place timed Kinetic Covers to hinder the monster's retaliation against my teammates... oh wait, that's Earth again. ;o) Hmmm...

You'll get a lot of use from either one of the elements in the beginning, as well as come across types of monsters that will challenge either element. I merely suggest taking Electric Blast early because you can carry around some backups weapons in case the electricity doesn't work well, versus having to scratch your head a bit if your normal attacks have trouble hitting and you don't have a method to target touch AC. Once your second element comes online, you'll have zero reason to keep around normal weapons, because you have both bases covered.

Scarab Sages

DeathlessOne wrote:
You'll get a lot of use from either one of the elements in the beginning, as well as come across types of monsters that will challenge either element. I merely suggest taking Electric Blast early because you can carry around some backups weapons in case the electricity doesn't work well, versus having to scratch your head a bit if your normal attacks have trouble hitting and you don't have a method to target touch AC. Once your second element comes online, you'll have zero reason to keep around normal weapons, because you have both bases covered.

That's a great point. I also guess my teammates will mostly do conventional damage, so having a touch attack on offer will be more valuable to the party than doubling down on conventional damage. And I suppose firing a crossbow is better than nothing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The only problem with flight I can imagine is that if you are playing inside doing a lot of dungeon crawl type scenarios than flight may not be as useful.

Earth does have some useful points that may not have yet been covered:

Defense - DR/Adamantine is awesome, scale up and give you a place to put burn to fuel overflow. Air never seems worth it.

Tremorsense - At 6th level you can get Air's Fly, which is about the best there is but Earth lets you grab Tremorsense, which can be really nice if you use it before every door, or room you go into, not perfect but very useful.

Impale - One of the best AoE Kineticist have, only Fire has better AoE, water can get this but only get it for Ice, Earth gets it for both regular and their metal/metal composite blast. It is a 30' line of destruction that can go through barriers. Also as Earth/Earth you can grab at 7th.

Magnetic Blast - Depending on party composition, this can be a huge asset and also applies to and works easier for Electric blasts. At level 11+ if you go earth/earth this is a great for metal blasts.

As for Weapon Finesse first. If you are playing a ranged class, then PBS/PS are your too first feats. If you are playing a switchhitter, a role that the kineticist can do very well at, then Finesse/Kinetic Blade are what you need. In general, if your people are in melee, so are you. If your people aren't, than PS doesn't matter. I have a build like this in PFS and his first turns were you usually, shoot target and move into position then future rounds gather and knife. If he needed to switch targets, he would just move into a flanking position (spiked gauntlet is your friend) or shoot and move. At third level you can either go for more flexibility and grab PBS then PS at 5th or focus on melee and grab feats like Dodge or Iron Will.

Scarab Sages

Hmmm... one of the things that would work in favor of starting with Water (apart from Slick) would be Shimmering Mirage. Unlike the Air defense, it should actually work against lasers! Though by then, I might have UMD high enough to have a wand of Mirror or the like...

Scarab Sages

Taenia, I agree that there's lots to love about Earth — even just the fact that I don't start out doing only 1d6+1 damage. ;o) I just realized something else that I've been neglecting so far: If I were to start with Earth, I wouldn't have to take Expanded Defense at 8th. Talent slot saved.

Also, assuming I'd start with Air, given the talent tax on Wings of Air, I can't pick both Air's Reach and Elemental Whispers before 7th level, when Extra Wild Talent becomes available. Argh! :( And unlike Earth, Air has a total lack of interesting low-level infusions. Maybe I could ask my DM to allow me to pick a utility in place of an infusion.


i highly highly sugest go earth 1st then air then earth again as that way you can have ateast something to do vs enemies that have resistance to electricity or imunity(if you take air 1st your gona feel sad in the 1st book)


I haven't played Iron Gods, but my 2 cents:

Its hard to go really wrong with any kineticist. So... not much news on the optimization front. I honestly think the best way to choose is to ignore 'optimization' and just write down what you want your character to be like. If an android who throws around electricity is what you want, go for it.

Fire is a good element as well, just without any defense. Between burning and fire's fury it does significantly more damage than lightning, and its AoE's are solid. Burning infusion gives you buffs on successive rounds to hit and to overcome saves. 4th level and up it rapidly deals with minor energy resistance (at no extra burn cost). Flash and Unraveling infusion give options for immune enemies at mid to high levels(and if they became immune via a spell, unraveling will smack it away before it stops the damage). Ignoring SR at upper levels is icing on the cake. Unless you are playing a campaign where you know you will be fighting a lot of immune enemies from low level, it should be fine.

In the 3rd level campaign I'm playing in right now we have an air kineticist who is solidly dealing the most damage in the party... if they were fire they would just be crushing entire encounters with the AoE's and higher damage (not to mention that the monsters we have been fighting use natural weapons, so the 'defensive' ability would have actually had some mileage).

Scarab Sages

I think the greatest testament to Mark Seifter's genius design is that you can make a compelling case about every single element. :) On the flip side, building a Kineticist is just torture, what with all the opportunity costs. I keep changing my mind like crazy.

Quote:
I honestly think the best way to choose is to ignore 'optimization' and just write down what you want your character to be like. If an android who throws around electricity is what you want, go for it.

I want my character to fly, throw AoOs of various shapes, do energy full attacks in melee, have Slick available at will, and be invulnerable... In other words, I'd like to take all elements at the same time. :Þ

I do find myself worrying about the lack of AoOs a lot when thinking of Air and Earth builds. If I mix elements, I get Torrent or Impale at 9th (!). Maybe I should just risk a Fire/Earth build and accept having to draw the crossbow once or twice in the early game. (Unless Lady-J's dire warning should also hold for fire damage...?)

Earth has the advantage of making the Elemental Whispers familiar into a literal pet rock. :D It would be especially cute if it would unroll into a hedgehog (+2 Will, great stealth, but low mobility...). But a thrush made of smoke or a pet cloud would also be cool...

Scarab Sages

Duh, sorry, I meant AoE, not AoO. ;o)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

We got it Catharsis, figured you were so used to typing AoO over AoE that it was what you meant.

I agree about the decisions. What is worse, just to make your job harder, is considering high level abilities. Air for example gets Wind/Weather master which can be ok but generally may not help inside dungeons. Earth gets Earthquake which, well, can get really good or really bad depending. Fire gets some awesome high level abilities, even versus Fire immune foes, blinds, dispels, ignore SR and a heal when dying ability.

Also don't forget Aether, though not as good for damage the utility is awesome.

I am playing a 16th level Air/Water/Earth kineticist in Serpent's Skull and have been picking up lower level abilities just because some of the higher ones of Air just don't function as well in that particular AP. I am however loving Empowered Sandstorm Blast Whip Hurricane AoEs plus combat reflexes with 13 AoOs for 16d6+24 empowered.


fire might be ok havent really seen many uses of it besides burning hands in the campaign still sugest taking the earth physical bolt 1st over any elemental bolt otherwise your gona have a bad time as energy resists are alot more common, altho you might struggle with hardness from the robots so its a tough call

Scarab Sages

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I don't care about the super-high levels; I don't think I've ever completed a campaign later than 15th.

On the other hand, I'm getting way too few talent slots around mid level. All the good stuff is SL 3+, and not getting one of those until 9th level is a huge pain. I might go full Air just to avoid that horrendous gap. Extra Wild Talent is also way too late to pick up the slack.

If there's one big flaw to Mark Seifter's magnum opus, it's this: Effective talent levels stagnate for way too long, flipping only at 5th level (for the scarce few 2nd-level talents) and then again at 9th. Most of us are stuck with single-target shots until 9th, way later than literally any other class.

As for DR vs resistance, I'd expect my party to be mostly physical damage dealers in the early levels, so if I alone suck against an energy-resistant foe, it's probably preferable over everybody sucking against a DR monster...


Catharsis wrote:

...

As for DR vs resistance, I'd expect my party to be mostly physical damage dealers in the early levels, so if I alone suck against an energy-resistant foe, it's probably preferable over everybody sucking against a DR monster...

This is probably the strongest argument yet for going with an energy - yay for working with the party!

I think the real sticking point I see is the AoE's. If you really want them, Fire is hands down the best element. Not only do they get more of them, but energy AoE's do full damage rather than half. All the other elements I see as "switch-hitters" that have a couple bonus AoE's that might be good under specific circumstances (impale is an exception as it does full damage with a physical, but its area of effect is hard). If its swarms you are worried about rather than multi-target, the default blast does full damage.

My interpretation of what you want is either Double Air or Double Fire (blue flame whip is level 11+ only, but its very deadly).


Catharsis wrote:
As for DR vs resistance, I'd expect my party to be mostly physical damage dealers in the early levels, so if I alone suck against an energy-resistant foe, it's probably preferable over everybody sucking against a DR monster...

Your logical conclusion pleases me.

Scarab Sages

Thaago wrote:
I think the real sticking point I see is the AoE's. If you really want them, Fire is hands down the best element.

Yep, having one from level 1st rather than 7th or 9th is a huge difference, and I do feel the form infusions are one of the main selling points of the Kineticist's blasting style. I feel it's one of the duties of a blaster to be able to handle crowds effectively.

On the other hand, maybe I'm overestimating the usefulness of Fan of Flames. I'm sure it's awesome to use at 1st level (albeit at low damage), but as soon as the enemies grow Large, it might be hard to get more than one into the blast, let alone while also staying out of their threatened area. And like the other elements, I have to wait until level 7th or 9th to get the first superior AoE...

Quote:
Not only do they get more of them, but energy AoE's do full damage rather than half.

Well, that's also true of Electric. I realize it's no longer true for most composites, but I figure empowered electric will be almost as good as a composite until pretty much the end of my adventuring career.

What do you think of taking Electric/Negative? That's a full-energy composite blast... though I guess not having a physical blast is a huge risk, and I don't get the benefit of early AoE entry that Fire/Fire offers in exchange. Then again, one could conceivably combine Electric/Negative with Chain... ooh. :)

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All the other elements I see as "switch-hitters" that have a couple bonus AoE's that might be good under specific circumstances (impale is an exception as it does full damage with a physical,

Yes, Impale is one reason why I could very much imagine taking Earth/Metal. I'm thoroughly impressed with that element. Too bad I'd be missing out on touch attacks altogether, but I suppose I could just take EWP: Laser Pistol to amend that. :)

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but its area of effect is hard).

Note that Torrent has a 60' reach with Electric, Air, and the Air composites, which makes it more attractive. One more point in favor of Air/Air...

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My interpretation of what you want is either Double Air or Double Fire (blue flame whip is level 11+ only, but its very deadly).

Yeah, those are prime candidates for sure. I'd add Earth/Metal to that top tier. Strange how diversifying elements seems like a no-brainer at first read-through, but that talent gap at 7th makes a lot of difference...

Scarab Sages

Addendum: One of the main reasons I hesitate with Air/Air is the amazingly bad selection of infusions in the early levels. Aside from Kinetic Blade, I suppose I could also take Extended Range, though the amazing Air's Reach makes that almost entirely obsolete. I'd honestly be tempted to leave the 5th level slot vacant because the other options are so abysmally bad. I'm hoping in this case I could convince my DM to allow me to take Air's Reach in an infusion slot, since it modifies the blast after all.

Another option would be a homebrewed «Buffeting Blast» for Air, SL 1 or 2, which reduces enemy AC by –2 for 1 round, Fort negates, 1 Burn. Mark Seifter already judged that appropriately balanced in his Ask thread, so I suppose it would have good chances with my DM.


I don't know if any of the air-related options in the list appeal to you, but you could consider Kinetic Invocation - it was pretty much designed for not-enough-options situations like this.

Asking your GM to make androids an "associated race" for air, what with its electrical themes and their electronic origin, seems fairly reasonable. (And then you don't need to worry about finding a feat slot for Kinetic Invocation.)

Scarab Sages

Thanks for the pointer; I wasn't aware of this option. That d20pfsrd Kineticist page needs an update to map out all that new Kineticist content...

It looks like Kinetic Invocation only adds more utilities, of which there are already more than enough good ones for Air. Also, the spells they offer for Air seem very underwhelming indeed, except for Gaseous Form, which comes a bit late...


Whoops, yeah. I forgot you were starved for infusions, not utilities.

As for the levels they arrive at, I don't know what to tell you - they're mapped to the spell levels. It's not like kineticists are going to get access to spells before wizards and clerics do.

Scarab Sages

Isabelle Lee wrote:
As for the levels they arrive at, I don't know what to tell you - they're mapped to the spell levels. It's not like kineticists are going to get access to spells before wizards and clerics do.

Except that Kineticists gain infusions of a spell level one and two levels later than Sorcerers and Wizards, respectively, not counting the Gap of Doom between CL 5th and 9th or the pile-up effect of having several good options come online at the same time. :\

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

If your GM is ok with 3rd party N.jolly put out a feat called Kinetic Prodigy, i think. Give a tiny damage boost and lets you count as one level higher for your infusions. If taken at 5th this will let you get a 3rd level infusion then.

Scarab Sages

Taenia wrote:
If your GM is ok with 3rd party N.jolly put out a feat called Kinetic Prodigy, i think. Give a tiny damage boost and lets you count as one level higher for your infusions. If taken at 5th this will let you get a 3rd level infusion then.

That sounds fantastic! Maybe a bit too much so, if it makes abilities available earlier than normal...

My DM is fine with 3rd party as long as it doesn't elevate one character above the rest of the party. I think that's not the case here, but I'd understand if he were suspicious. Did Mark Seifter approve it at some point...? That would certainly help!

Where can I find that feat?

EDIT: Found it.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2su6f&page=16?Mastering-the-Elements-N-Joll ys-guide-to-the#766

Is that the only place, or has it been picked up in a book somewhere...?

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