Build Advice: Flowing Monk / Monk of the Sacred Mountain vs. Unchained Monk

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Currently pondering a Monk character built with the Flowing Monk and Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetypes for near supreme defensive capabilities, and wondering how it compares to a defensively-built Unchained Monk, or even if those archetypes can be socketed INTO Unchained Monk. Good idea? Bad idea? I'm not sure, what do you more skilled players think?

[Chess Pwn]

the archetypes don't work for unchained officially.

[Saleem Halabi]

Flowing Monk is insanely defensive. I have one for PFS and his level 11 self buffed AC hovers in the low to high 40's (depending on how many adjacent foes he has) and his saves range from +12 at the lowest to +17 at the top end.

On top of that when you factor in evasion, the penalty for opponents being sickened, flat footed, and prone, he is almost impossible to harm with equal level opponents.

Offensively the interrupt action trip and reposition (along with greater trip, greater reposition, vicious stomp, Paired Opportunist (with a ring of tactical precision shared with a party member), and a merciful AoMF equals tons of AoO from myself and the entire party that are each doing 3d6+4 non lethal.

Also look into getting a Dueling Leveraging Kama that you keep in a Scabbard of Vigor. This lets you pretty much guarantee trip or reposition anything that can be tripped. (At lvl 11: +11 Bab +4 Str +4 Greater trip/reposition +8 [enhancement after leveraging], +17 Luck /w Fate's Favored +1 Bred for War =+45. Without the scabbard [which is only for 1 round] it comes out to a persistent +27)

Its also very complex to play. i would not recommend it for a system novice.

[BadBird]

Flowing Monk is a pretty cool concept, and there are a lot of ways to do it.

The first thing that comes to mind with a Flowing Monk would be to take one level of Cleric and grab Guided Hand and Crusader's Flurry with a trip weapon, which would then let you use your WIS for your weapon, and let you use your WIS weapon with all trip and reposition maneuvers. Some options would be Magdh for scythe flurry, Horus for khopesh flurry, or Olheon for halberd flurry. Then you can stack up your WIS sky-high to use for basically everything. You can even use your Cleric level to grab an Inquisition that bases social skills off of WIS, or a Domain Power with 3+WIS/day uses (if there are any useful 1-level ones with the relevant deities).

[Sammy T]

Saleem Halabi wrote:

Also look into getting a Dueling Leveraging Kama that you keep in a Scabbard of Vigor. This lets you pretty much guarantee trip or reposition anything that can be tripped. (At lvl 11: +11 Bab +4 Str +4 Greater trip/reposition +8 [enhancement after leveraging], +17 Luck /w Fate's Favored +1 Bred for War =+45. Without the scabbard [which is only for 1 round] it comes out to a persistent +27)

How are you getting +17 Luck bonus?

edit: ah, I was looking at the wrong Dueling enchantment.

[BadBird]

Actually for straight combat ability, Flowing Monk with a level of Bloodrager and Furious Leveraging weapons. You get a big boost to combat maneuvers and melee ability in general, and you can do things like using Urban Bloodrager to avoid any AC penalty or even taking Id Rager with Anger and Crane Style to end up bumping up both attack and AC. You can even utilize a Furious polearm weapon as well if you want, since it doesn't do anything to interfere with unarmed strikes.

Ki Throw lets you trip way bigger creatures for a point or two of Ki; with a Ring of Ki Mastery throwing large or huge creatures costs only 1 Ki.

[Grom Kranock]

Ok so I have found the correct Dueling enchant but how on earth do you get it to +17? 1 from Fates Favored and you have a +8 enhancement bonus?????

[Rhaleroad]

Mister +45 at lvl 11 is way off base. There is no +17 luck bonus, dueling doesn't even give a trip bonus. Also the 1 round scabbard bonus does not add +18...+4 max, you are stacking/multiplying bonuses wrong. Leverage only bumps the Weapons Enhancement bonus, not the bonus from the scabbard. Granted in the game you play in, the GM might be letting you get away with this new math,, but that won't work in most games.

That being said, his combo is nice. Multiple adds too a magic weapon is pricey at lower levels though. Even Saleem's AC and saves seem high for lvl 11, I am betting he game is very generous with the gear and interpretation of the rules.

[Imbicatus]

Ok, the issue is that leveraging and dueling are being combined illegally. A +4 leveraging Kama would have a +8 enchancement bonus for the purpose of trip maneuvers. A +4 dueling Kama would grant a +8 luck bonus to trip, which becomes +9 with fares favored. If you add those together you get +8 enhancement and +9 luck, because dueling uses the +4 base enchancement bonus, not the double bonus from leveraging.

It's still a huge boost, but not like having an always on true strike.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

While I don't think I'll be able to achieve EVERYTHING that's been described here, at least it's confirmed that this setup's solid. Thank you all! I'll get started building him this afternoon, when I'm home from work and not posting from a phone...

[Saleem Halabi]

Rhaleroad wrote:

Mister +45 at lvl 11 is way off base. There is no +17 luck bonus, dueling doesn't even give a trip bonus. Also the 1 round scabbard bonus does not add +18...+4 max, you are stacking/multiplying bonuses wrong. Leverage only bumps the Weapons Enhancement bonus, not the bonus from the scabbard. Granted in the game you play in, the GM might be letting you get away with this new math,, but that won't work in most games.

That being said, his combo is nice. Multiple adds too a magic weapon is pricey at lower levels though. Even Saleem's AC and saves seem high for lvl 11, I am betting he game is very generous with the gear and interpretation of the rules.

I don't actually use the scabbard, I just saw it and thought it seemed neat. The day to day use is just the +1 dueling leveraging. (and yes dueling does give a luck bonus.)

Pathfinder Society Field Guide pg 50
"A dueling weapon bears magical enhancements that makes it particularly effective at performing certain combat maneuvers. When a dueling weapon is used to perform a combat maneuver that utilizes the weapon only (see below), it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus on the CMB check made to carry out the maneuver. The dueling weapon also grants this same luck bonus to the wielder’s CMD score against these types of combat maneuvers. These combat maneuvers include disarm and trip maneuvers, but not bull rush, grapple, or overrun maneuvers. If you’re using the additional combat maneuvers in the Advanced Player’s Guide, this also includes any dirty trick maneuvers that utilize the weapon, as well as reposition combat maneuvers, but not drag or steal combat maneuvers. Note that this luck bonus stacks with the weapon’s enhancement bonus, which in and of itself adds to CMB checks normally.
"

Leveraging
"This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. The wielder of a leveraging weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense against bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers. The leveraging weapon’s enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers."

As to Armor class, the calculation is as follows
10 - Base
Dex - 3
Wis - 5
Monk - 3 (with monk's robes)
Flowing Monk 1-5 depending on adjacent foes
Combat Expertise - 3
Ring of Prot - 2
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone - 1
Natural (Tiefling+ Barkskin quigong) - +5
Mage Armor - 4 (via wand, or Cloak of the Hedge Wizard)
Fighting Defensivly (optional) +3
Haste (optional from party members) +2
Ki bonus +4 (optional)
Total - 40-50

And its level appropriate PFS gold.