The purpose of this thread is to clarify questions arising in this adventure. This is a SPOILER-filled zone: do not venture further if you do not wish the adventure to be spoiled for you, and spoiler tags are not required when posting here.
This thread is a GM Reference thread for Part 6 of the Ironfang Invasion Adventure Path. Links for the individual threads for each part are as follows:
I don't think anyone will know for sure until the book is released. However, I think it unlikely that the PCs wouldn't level up at all over the course of the installment. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that the party will play at levels 16 and 17 but not make it to 18 by the end of the adventure, but that's just a guess.
I have a question concerning the BBEG. In Azaersi's stat block, she uses a dagger with the Returning property on it as her ranged attack. I looked it up and Returning causes a weapon, once thrown, to return whence it was thrown at the beginning of the next round. But Azaersi's stat block has her making a ranged full attack with it. Ummmmm, what?
I have a question concerning the BBEG. In Azaersi's stat block, she uses a dagger with the Returning property on it as her ranged attack. I looked it up and Returning causes a weapon, once thrown, to return whence it was thrown at the beginning of the next round. But Azaersi's stat block has her making a ranged full attack with it. Ummmmm, what?
Well, technically she can use the dagger for one attack in a full attack action. For example, cut someone down in melee, and then throw the dagger for her final attack. Or she can pivot to another ranged weapon after throwing it.
But if you want go have her actually full attack with it, give her Ricochet Toss or a Blink Back Belt plus Quickdraw.
A 50-foot-wide bridge of tourmaline stands over Argent Lake, connecting the lakeshore to the large island supporting the Onyx Citadel. An Ironfang camp on the island numbers thousands strong, but the overwhelming majority of these troops are typical hobgoblins, minotaurs, trolls, and low-level combatants reflected in earlier volumes of this Adventure Path. Because these gathered masses pose little challenge for the PCs even when gathered into troops, their exact numbers are left up to you. The PCs can assault or ignore the hobgoblin camp as they see fit—the ultimate battle lies within the fortress itself, and only by defeating both Azaersi and Zanathura can the PCs halt the Ironfang Legion’s threat once
and for all.
Is it possible to bring the player's Nirmathi/Fey/Molthuni allies into the vault so they can have a final battle scene with this camp?
Either an actual combat encounter using the Nirmathi and Molthune troop statblocks from Land of Conflict or just "We'll deal with the army while you go inside the citadel and put an end to this!"
A 50-foot-wide bridge of tourmaline stands over Argent Lake, connecting the lakeshore to the large island supporting the Onyx Citadel. An Ironfang camp on the island numbers thousands strong, but the overwhelming majority of these troops are typical hobgoblins, minotaurs, trolls, and low-level combatants reflected in earlier volumes of this Adventure Path. Because these gathered masses pose little challenge for the PCs even when gathered into troops, their exact numbers are left up to you. The PCs can assault or ignore the hobgoblin camp as they see fit—the ultimate battle lies within the fortress itself, and only by defeating both Azaersi and Zanathura can the PCs halt the Ironfang Legion’s threat once
and for all.Is it possible to bring the player's Nirmathi/Fey/Molthuni allies into the vault so they can have a final battle scene with this camp?
Either an actual combat encounter using the Nirmathi and Molthune troop statblocks from Land of Conflict or just "We'll deal with the army while you go inside the citadel and put an end to this!"
That sounds like a good idea
Dex to hit and damage. She doesn't need STR for anything.Azaersi also has 8 STR... is that right?
she's supposed to be a melee powerhouse... that just seems off.
Yeah mechanically it means nothing, but I agree it does feel a bit 'off'.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Azaersi, I have changed her stats and levels to make her an Antipaladin (Tyrant) 2 // Warsighted Oracle of Battle 18. She's supposed to be this supremely amazing warrior, and somehow that translates to 20 levels in Swashbuckler? She does hit for less damage my way, but all of her battle magic changes the tide of engagements, which is the sort of thing I saw as more appropriate for a front-line General.
As far as hobgoblin distrust of magic is concerned, I was considering fluffing it as Azaersi believing her powers are the manifestation of her role as the chosen one of goblinoids across Golarion. And with 9th level spells, who are the PCs to argue?
As far as hobgoblin distrust of magic is concerned, I was considering fluffing it as Azaersi believing her powers are the manifestation of her role as the chosen one of goblinoids across Golarion. And with 9th level spells, who are the PCs to argue?
Sorry to necro this a bit but Hobgoblins don't generally have a problem with divine magic, only arcane usually
Started this mod. The Influence system in war of the crown seemed to run very well, here it just feels tacked on a bit and doesn't really add much, except to not have 55 pages of hack and slash.
|
Started this mod. The Influence system in war of the crown seemed to run very well, here it just feels tacked on a bit and doesn't really add much, except to not have 55 pages of hack and slash.
Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing. There’s a pretty solid chance I’m going to skip that part if I can, the PCs haven’t had any build up for this social scenario, these NPCs don’t mean anything to them and they’ve likely never even heard their names. To be honest I was confused when I read the into to this part, I thought the Chernesardo Rangers *were* the military, so to find out that they aren’t the military and that this whole time there’s been a battle raging though the country side unnoticed was a little surprising.
I'm a bit puzzled about the party's expected final active adventuring level.
The advancement track on page four indicates that the party "should reach 17th level before entering the Onyx Citadel". Right below that it states that the party "should be 18th level by the adventure’s end".
"By the adventure's end" - does that refer to pre- or post-final battle?
I'm a little confused by how the discovery rules work for the summit. Page 6 says a PC can attempt a DC 20 check to identify an influence skill IN ADDITION to their influence check. Page 7 says they can make a discovery check INSTEAD of an influence check each day to notice and interest.
Now the difference between those two checks seems to be that the former is used to identify skills beyond bluff or diplomacy while the other is used to grant people a +4 bonus against that NPC. But the interplay between the two leaves me a little confused, and it isn't helped by the fact that this doesn't seem to use the normal Influence rules.
As a specific example, how do the players discover which skills they use for the discovery checks? Is that one of the things they can learn with their free Sense Motive checks?
My players will welcome a social challenge to break up the combat, but I want to make sure I'm running it right.
How is earthquake concerns dealt with in this book? I know it may be a vault seed so would the environment be immune?
How is earthquake concerns dealt with in this book? I know it may be a vault seed so would the environment be immune?
What earthquake concerns?
When the PCs open the Stone Roads and enter the Vault, how long does the way stay open behind them? Can they go back? Can they re-open it from this side using the shard, and if so, where do they need to be? Can they use plane shift to get back to Golarion? Can they make a tuning fork to use plane shift to get to the Vault, once they've been there?
How does the force at the Onyx Citadel 20 miles away send two groups in response to the PCs' arrival that seem to show up within a couple minutes? Neither group teleports.
What does the Stone Road opening up look like? It must be somewhat showy as the pech immediately notice and send a scout force.
This part didn't run well for me at all: too much key information is missing. I think most PC parties will be reluctant to go up two levels with no resupply (the treasure in the module being therefore almost entirely useless except for potions).
When the PCs open the Stone Roads and enter the Vault, how long does the way stay open behind them? Can they go back? Can they re-open it from this side using the shard, and if so, where do they need to be? Can they use plane shift to get back to Golarion? Can they make a tuning fork to use plane shift to get to the Vault, once they've been there?
How does the force at the Onyx Citadel 20 miles away send two groups in response to the PCs' arrival that seem to show up within a couple minutes? Neither group teleports.
What does the Stone Road opening up look like? It must be somewhat showy as the pech immediately notice and send a scout force.
This part didn't run well for me at all: too much key information is missing. I think most PC parties will be reluctant to go up two levels with no resupply (the treasure in the module being therefore almost entirely useless except for potions).
Most of this is answered on page 24 or 25. I think some other bits are answered later but I don't have a page number yet. But in order:
The stone road collapses as soon as they exit it, leaving the players without an obvious route home. No, they can't repopen it from this side; I think they need to be in the onyx citdel for it. I'd say they can plane shift back to Golarion but need to come back using the stone road and shard again; otherwise it raises questions like "couldn't we have figured out this frequency from stuff brought there or something?" It cheapens the trouble the players went to in book 5 and 6.
Nothing suggests the Ironfang forces arrive within minute. Quite the opposite, the AP expects the players to have time to talk to pechs and stuff.
It is really just a tunnel opening up. The book doesn't say the pechs saw it open, just that the scouts find the party shortly afterwards. They were probably already nearby.
The players shouldn't know they will be doing two levels without resupplying. And they really shouldn't have the time to do so even if they can travel back and forth. There's a Doomsday clock running.
If you don't think the magic items the book includes will be appreciated by the party, replace with your own. Any gold they find can be used if you decide to dip into the "continuing the adventure" section.
Nothing suggests the Ironfang forces arrive within minute. Quite the opposite, the AP expects the players to have time to talk to pechs and stuff.
It's 20 miles. About 7 hours at the speed of the golem party; let's say half that for the yzobu party. Yet the golem party, the slower of the two, is described as showing up during the conversation with the pech. Mighty long conversation.
You seem to be under the assumption that the Shaitan and Golem were dispatched after the PCs arrive. We know this isn't the case because page 27 says the shaitan is only expecting a single vaultkeeper for resistance. So the order of events is most likely:
1) Pech scouting party heads out.
2) Shaitan leaves the Citadel to deliver ultimatum.
3) PCs arrive via stone road.
4) Pechs spot PCs; bring them back to village.
5) Azaersi notices PCs arrival through crystal ball; they were already keeping tabs on the place. She probably dispatches Kraelos around this time as the PCs speak the lead pech.
6) The Shaitan arrives and finds more resistance than expected.
7) Kraelos arrives later.
All that being packed into a 4 hour block seems pretty reasonable to me, especially given the PCs are likely trying to get a long rest in before they keep adventuring-- they just fought their way through Fort Phaender and are likely down spell slots and such. So it really doesn't matter how long it takes Kraelos to make the trip, as long as it is less than 8 hours.
I just found it intensely frustrating that here and elsewhere in the module, there was no attempt to ground anything that happened in real distances, times, enemy plans, etc.
With respect, a lot of your issues seem to be based off of not reading the book close enough. Which is fine; we are all human. I have missed important things in the books myself. But it does sort of undercut your criticism.
(1) Nothing felt real. In the fortress, everyone appears to just stand guard 24/7, without replacements, and with no response force to react to alerts.
This is a really strange assumption to make. Guard changes aren't described, but there are bunks and mess halls so we know they have to happen. The fact the bunks are described as empty when the PCs arrive means the off duty guards were presumably brought on duty when an alarm was raised.
Alarm responses not being well described is a bit of a pet peeve of mine in this AP and others, but that is because it leaves the onus of deciding those responses on the GM, not because I assume that means there is no response.
The NPCs are planning to destroy the vault in 24 hours when the PCs first arrive. Why aren't they doing anything to move the army into the citadel?
Presumably within the next 24 hours? It isn't like it would take that long to do using the stone road. Troops not stationed near towers would probably be sacrifices Azeaersi (or rather, Zanathura) is willing to make. Don't see why this needs to be spelled out.
Reaction forces from the Citadel arrive far before they logically could, and have no sensible plan when they do arrive.
The High Commander is supposed to be a tactical genius but she throws away her forces for nothing.
Again, this is just you missing text. The Shaitan didn't have a plan because he was already on his way and didn't know what he was walking into. Azaersi and Zanathura might have had a chance to warn him, but probably didn't so they would get a chance to scry the battle and observe tactics, which can be fed to the actual attack force led by Kraelos arriving several hours later.
(2) The Ironfangs were completely unable to deal with very basic Pathfinder strategies. Except for the priests in the temple, no one had any countermeasures for invisibility. They tended to be very weak at range, so flight was also a huge problem. The alchemists relied on elemental damage and did not do enough to go through Resist Energy.
And here we are starting to get into how tough it is to balance a PF1 game. Your party's "standard" tactics might not even be possible for another party. While they might have been able to include more stuff as written, Azaersi has explicitly watched them fight. If she sees them use tactics like this fighting the Shaitan and Kraelos, then why not have her try and prepare her troops for those tactics? It isn't like a few bags of flour or whatever would be hard to distribute.
Stuff outlining how easy it was.
This is part of why converting this to PF2 has been easier than preparing to run it in PF1. The optimization variance of PF1 makes calibrating an adventure's difficulty for all parties impossible. If your players have a good handle on how to build characters you pretty much have to buff encounters to match while being very careful you don't create a TPK. And even then, a clever spell caster can probably cheese most encounters anyway instead of actually fighting them.
By comparison, converting monsters to a system where level and challenge rating actually work for determining difficulty is much easier than accounting for a powerful party in PF1. (Treasure is much trickier, though, especially when you run an AP like this with atypical rewards.)
I will note that some battles, at least, SHOULD be easy, especially when they are part of a gauntlet to fight through an entire fortress. But I'd still add some of the tactics and precautions you mention, especially if the casters can cast permanent spells in that vein.
Yeah, I can dig most of that. I'm not especially bothered by the Ironfang Soldiers being out of the safe zone still, because the whole point of the Onyx key is it lets soldiers move around quickly, and IIRC it mentions Azaersi has dug in which means troops should be close to towers. Similarly, the pech thing is fine. Why not ask them for their valuable resources before you blow them up? You certainly can't get them afterwards.
I think moving Kraelos to a response to a node being tampered with makes a lot of sense. I also think it makes sense not to send more troops out beyond that. In the open field Kraelos and his cavalry would have been the best bet against what I assume are highly mobile PCs.
But I really haven't looked at the troop placement within the citadel closely enough to defend it. I'm glad to know you ran into those problems,though. When I start setting up this map on foundry I'll pay attention and see if there are things I can tweak. Book 5 is really the only book that gives specific responses to player tactics for the dungeon, and even that is mostly "do what you think is appropriate given Arlantia's resources."
As cool as a tactically brilliant villain is, it creates two problems. One is that the book's author needs to also be a good at tactics to make it show. The other is that the players then need to be able to handle those tactics. And the linear nature of APs means that villains can't be TOO competent or the game veers off course. How many APs basically hinge on a supposedly clever villain leaving behind a journal that dictates where the PCs need to go next to undermine their plot?
One nice thing about PF2 is that rocket tag is less of a thing and solo bosses are actually scary. So I rarely need to add more troops beyond adjusting for a 5 player party.
Ran Day zero of the summit. The party tried to research all the guests to find out their likes and dislikes, including a Sending to Karburtin. Which of course blew Obisk's cover. Shenanigans ensued. It was a lot of fun, but now all of Obisk's activity for the summit is thrown out the window. Not sure why that wasn't addressed, but I guess Obisk was kind of an idiot on a few other fronts.
Anyone understand how Vetrigan Sebine spent his final days? It seems like he traveled to the Onyx Citadel to assassinate Azaersi, but I am not sure how he got there, what his plan was, or why he left his family sword behind.
Hey Jon, when did your party hit 18th? I haven't bothered with XP in a while but I'm not clear on whether they should be 18th before or after the final battle. I'm debating tracking it when they enter Vault to decide.
... including a Sending to Karburtin. ...
been reading ahead and thought that was an obvious move (depending on how things end up going in Kraggodan or course), so thanks for the call out on something to prepare a bit more for (and maybe I can seed something during Siege of Stone while the party is in Kraggodan).
Have you finished the AP yet? Interested to hear how things turned out and your thoughts on highpoint of the AP and what, if anything, should be tweaked.
anyone know why Scabvistin's sneak attack damage is d8 instead of d6?
anyone know why Scabvistin's sneak attack damage is d8 instead of d6?
His Knife master Archetype has this ability:
Sneak Stab (Ex): A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger (Advanced Player’s Guide 178), she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s. This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
anyone know why Scabvistin's sneak attack damage is d8 instead of d6?His Knife master Archetype has this ability:
ahh - thankyou! totally missed that right at the top of the statblock (and bottom of p22). Was scouring p23.
Appreciated.
|
So it took me a while, but I found out that Noxil detailed on page 45 of the AP is a Male bugbear antipaladin (fearmonger) 12.
I assume Noxil is its name of course?
My players are enjoying this AP.
I ran the encounter with the Xorn as a WWE style matchup between Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson, the crowd clapped their 3 arms and stomped their 3 legs to "We Will Rock You" by Queen and the match was introduced with a Xorn shouting "Lets get REAAADY TO CRUMMMBBBBLLLLLLLE!!!"
I make no apologies
...
I assume Noxil is its name of course?
...
yes. Though if you want to deviate from the Monster Codex statblock to make things more interesting then go for it.
Looks like the reference lists on p1 of the books are incomplete. Both Monster Codex and NPC Codex missing from book 6 reference list, NPC Codex missing from books 3, 4, and 5, and I didn't bother checking the rest.
Makes a lie out of "yet these additional supplements are not required to make use of this book." (and the suggested paizo.com/prd link redirects to the 2ed Archives of Nethys site).
I think they should have supplied encounter location maps for the 3 Nexus and given a better explanation what the Nexus look like and how to tap into their power.
That was some extra work; true that.
I had pilfered some pretty awesome maps from a google search, and had some really decent encounters, nonetheless.
But then they did Diplomacy that worked against the dragon, so that map wasn't necessary.
But he Xarxorin fight and locale was epic, so I'm proud of the work that went into that one!
My players are killing the influence checks.
With +30 Diplomacy for one and another with +30 Bluff (and others with knowledge skills at that level too), they can knock off all 3 required influence successes with a single check. Admittedly high dice rolls, but with assists and the "earns an additional success for every 5 by which the result of her influence check exceeds the listed DC" it becomes a flood of home-runs with 3 NPCs being convinced on day 1 of the council.
tip for anyone following after me who uses the maps for players.
I print out the maps at scale (hiding secret doors etc.) and put them on the gaming map so I'm not spending time drawing.
Normally works quite well.
Map for the Onyx Tower, Level 1, room B3 shows a large space with blurred walls for the stone road. This should NOT be there before the stone road is opened.
I forgot to digitally alter this before printing out so the players were thinking of gunning straight for the stone road after popping the Sardonyx Shard in the gap.
A bit of time was spent after making wisdom checks on why this would be a bad idea, but it should have been unnecessary as the room description has it as a blank wall.
Fortunately no harm at the moment, but I'm going to have to do some retroactive narrative at the start of my next session.
What does anyone think about giving Azaersi 2 swift actions a round? As I prepped her for my final game next week, I noticed that she has so many abilities that rely on both swift and immediate actions.
And also considering giving Zanathura a bonus quickened Spell metamagic feat. And adding in a bonus fly spell for her and Azaersi.
Just noticed that the digital download for Book 6 was updated last year (Feb 2022). The toggle tags on the maps weren't working on the older version but are fixed now. Not sure if there were other changes.
Just noticed that the digital download for Book 6 was updated last year (Feb 2022). The toggle tags on the maps weren't working on the older version but are fixed now. Not sure if there were other changes.
The interactive maps still have a glitch in that a lot of the doors are solid brown rectangles on top of the white doors.
(see doors from room b2-b3, b6-b7 and the majority of doors on the citadel itself.) Its as if the Onyx walls of the towers/citadel have begun to grow and absorb the doors.
The interactive maps still have a glitch in that a lot of the doors are solid brown rectangles on top of the white doors.
(see doors from room b2-b3, b6-b7 and the majority of doors on the citadel itself.) Its as if the Onyx walls of the towers/citadel have begun to grow and absorb the doors.
very true, and indicative of the drop in quality especially on maps and for the last 3 books.
I'll keep the idea of the doors turning to onyx up my sleeve just in case the players notice and comment on it. :-)