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erucsbo's page
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Old_Man_Robot wrote: ...
The Wizard is not a complex class. There is nothing inherently more difficult to playing a Wizard than any other prepared caster.
The "higher difficulty curve" often cited to the Wizard comes from the Wizard have fewer and weaker options outside of spell preparation. The Wizard's function and role lives and dies on largely on spell preparation alone.
True. That has been my experience. But if you skimp on the actual preparation of spells (i.e. optimize a generic spell list) then imho you're playing to weakness rather than strength.
Quote: ...
The 4 slot prepared caster with access to the largest spell list. Versatility is meant to be their jam.
The problem is, it's not really. Not anymore. And it's why the change to the school system is so fundamentally wrongheaded.
...
"Having less" is also something that ripples across the whole Wizard design.
The nerfing of schools for spells for the specialist slot showcased that.
Give the wizard access to more spells (expand their repertoire) - though items, opportunities to learn, ways to cast without expending default slots, and leverage their intelligence - and I won't really care about the other tricks that others can do.
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SuperBidi wrote: ...
Once people will stop considering that a Wizard has to adapt to the unforseeable future and start concentrating on optimizing spell lists for the average adventuring day, the Wizard will be both less complex and more efficient.
...
I'm calling bullshit on this.
You're entitled to your opinion but I will never subscribe to this PoV.
I've been gaming since 1980 and the wizard has always been about doing whatever they can to make an unforeseeable future foreseeable.
Anyone who wants to just optimize their spell list for the average adventuring day should play a sorcerer.
I'm currently playing my first 2e wizard and resonate with most of the comments made in this thread, but to be a better wizard I need to play intelligently. That means expanding my options (spells known or available) as much as possible, finding out as much as possible about what is likely the next day before preparing spells, know as much as possible about my fellow party members to synergize rather than compete, and as much as possible force encounters into my terms rather than reacting to strings being pulled by someone else.
It might be more complex, but I don't want my wizard to be "simple".
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Not neglecting all the other interesting things about the class that have been mentioned I just want to focus on arcane school - the problem (if my summation is correct) is the nerfing of the school slot from a large swathe of spells related by how the spells are made, to a very narrow slice of spells related by their resultant effects. And the reason why this has been done is to remove an artificial construct of magical theory (and distance PF2e from the OGL) and replace it with more exhibited flavour (and allow for new spells that don't fit one of the legacy traditions).
But the upshot is that by showcasing flavour over spell construction, the options for the curriculum (school spell list) have devolved to something niche.
I admit to being surprised when seeing the school curriculum lists being so small. For a student of the arcane to only study a core of so few spells seems negligent on the part of the school. It's more like a vocational certificate course or summer extension program rather than a school curriculum.
I have no problem with exhibited flavour being the driving factor, but the spell curriculum should be vastly expanded, and if a wizard should be favouring spells from their school, then have some other benefit beyond just a limited slot to cast them (eg. increase DC or to hit AC by 1, or add a metamagic effect (provided they also have the feat) as a free action instead of a single action, or create scrolls/wands of those spells at half cost, etc.)
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Hork, the Raving Hitchhiker wrote: The only sticking point I've encountered so far is that the spell can only be cast on a target that already happens to be flying. XD Leaving aside that you aren't really "throwing yourself at the ground" (and yes I get and love the reference) it does give another tick to using air walk over fly as air walk doesn't qualify as flying.
Earthbind does give a quicker way of getting to the ground safely than Gentle Landing (Feather Fall) if you have a slow fly speed and are within 120'.
It's also unclear whether Unfettered Movement (Freedom of Movement) would neutralize Earthbind, as it calls out specific conditions. I'd probably rule that it does neutralize it in the spirit of the game and being a higher level spell if I was making the call.
Earthbind uses the "weight of the earth" against a flying creature, so if it was up to me I'd probably have it pull a creature 5' underwater, but then stop as the creature is no longer flying but swimming/sinking instead. Could still be damaging if it was a pool of acid. If it was lava then I'd have them on the surface of the lava as it is technically "earth" (just very very hot and molten earth).
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I really appreciate the discussion and that I'm not missing anything in the rules already.
I do like finding inventive ways to use spells and cool interactions. I find they are more likely to create the memories that get recalled and reminisced over years later.
When discussing gaseous atmosphere, what about the interaction with solid fog? What about dropping the target into the middle of heightened (4th) earthworks?
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pH unbalanced wrote:
Oh no, it was 100% on theme and foreseeable.
Every character should always have a plan for what they do when their main shtick gets shut down. And occassionally, spellcasting will be impossible.
Not knowing what is being referenced I'll bow to superior knowledge.
If it was 100% foreseeable then I'll argue that the wizard should still not be required to rely on martial tools. Their best weapon should be their mind/intelligence and ability to prepare appropriately.
To me a wizard is the magical equivalent to the fighter. A fighter will tend to specialise and favour some weapons but should also have enough tools in their bag to deal with things that are weapon resistant or immune. Same with a wizard. If an encounter nerfs spellcasting there should still be other options for "winning" or surviving that do not depend on a character relying on someone else's schtick. Allowing other classes to shine - sure - but for some wizards asking them to take up arms would be akin to asking some fighters to cast a spell or rely on diplomacy alone.
For whether an archetype can fix the wizard? No - if one exists then it becomes the only valid option imho further restricting what one can do with the class.
I'm glad Paizo has fixed the math to allow for more balance across classes across low to high levels.
I'm not glad that wizards (which should be the arcane spellcasting master) have to eye enviously what other classes can do with arcane magic without being able to match or do better themselves (except in narrow areas).
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If earthbind is cast on a creature flying over water, does the falling stop when it hits the water (assuming it is within 120')? Or does it continue to sink towards the "earth" / "ground"?
Same if netting is rigged above the ground? Effectively grappling the earthbind target as it sinks through layers of nets?
Earthbind over Grease to force a Reflex Save / Acrobatic check or fall prone, making getting away even more difficult?
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pH unbalanced wrote: So, I'm going to be vague to avoid spoilers, but even as a full caster, you should *always* have a weapon you can use. Just got through a section in an AP that was utterly designed to shut down spellcasting -- the thing that got us through it was that my Wizard had a Returning Spear she could throw. Sounds like bad AP encounter design. It happens. Yes, a spellcaster should have a weapon or two (ranged and melee) they can use, but IMHO it is last resort (leaving aside archetypes and other myriad options to vary the character). In a 1e AP I was running the wizard PC used his dagger once in 20 levels, and that was only because he was out of relevant spells (none of the cantrips learned that day were suitable for this specific instance - ambush attack - hard to prepare for).
Given that 2e is more about teamwork and relying on a diverse party mix (or so I've constantly been told), I'd be worried if a vanilla wizard needed to use a mundane weapon more than a handful of times.
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Some of the benefits from the Remaster are things that I doubt I would ever use. Do I care that Wizards can now use all simple weapons? Not really. Why would I use a weapon when I have cantrips that do more damage, especially now that Needle Darts is available?
The change to some of the feats is nice (Conceal Spell), but as already has been mentioned this just brings the wizard up to some of the abilities of others without letting it shine in its own space.
Likewise with some of the spells - though this makes them more useful to arcane sorcerers than wizards.
I don't play "bang" mages. I prefer to use magic to do things that others can't do - change the rules of engagement and throw opponents off their guard. Makes for a more memorable game (imho), lets the martials shine in dealing damage (they are the blunt instrument in "my" toolbox"), and helps me showcase intelligent play over brute strength or magical blasting might.
The wizard (imho) should be the one who always has another (magical) trick up the sleeve. They should never try and beat someone else at the other person's game, but force/trick the other into playing by the wizard's rules instead.
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Arcane Bond is nice as a pull a rabbit out of the hat - but you have to have worn the right hat earlier in the day (to horribly mangle the metaphor).
Arcane Thesis allows for some shifting of resources but is essentially a zero-sum game - so a bit of flexibility but no net advantage.
Arcane School has been fully nerfed and makes the new schools more like "sorcerer-love" than focus on an aspect of magic.
What would I do?
I haven't thought it through too much but for Arcane Bond I would give more benefits - like using it to increase the DC of a spell by 1, or extend the duration of a spell by a round, or other things to show a mastery of magic - at the expense of using it to recast an already cast spell.
Arcane Thesis should allow the wizard to get more out of items - use a wand twice per day (limit number or wands or level of wands), or add extra spells to a staff (beyond what Staff Nexus initially allows), or flat check to reuse a scroll, or things like that.
Again - these are just top of mind but I feel play more to distinguishing a wizard from the other spellcasters than drawing them closer.
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The new schools seriously limit the value of the extra school spell slot. While I haven't played much 2e yet, I have an illusionist at the moment and except for a few spells improving in the remaster, overall it feels like I'm going backwards.
For me the value of wizards was all about the ability to plan and have a spell for everything. The premier magic-user in the game. It certainly seems like the other spell-casting classes have been shown far more love to bring them up to wizard levels (and have their other tricks and benefits as well) while wizards have to suffer the limits of the tools that were traditionally theirs (wands, staves, scrolls, etc.)
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Cavall wrote: Would the Dryads Song (even corrupted version) work on the mind slaver mold?
I can't see why it wouldn't that stuff HAS to be blighted.
The mindslaver mold is blighted. It is mentioned on pages 43, 44, and 45.
So yes it would work on the mindslaver mold as it is a plant and therefore a creature.
The rings can give immunity to Darkblight, but not the mindslaver mold's normal attacks/effects.
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I haven't done many APs but I would suggest that for a new GM that Ironfang Invasion is pretty good. The Ironfang Invasion channel here contains lots of recaps from a few of us. There is also a podcast (This Golarion Life) I used to listen to that went through II (and had other stuff which I ignored) which was good for GM prep.
You can handwave away the subsystems and keep things fairly simple, or you can allow the players to go admin-heavy if they want. Plenty of opportunities to role-play NPC interactions if you want, or can work for murder-hobo groups too.
There isn't much city-based stuff (until the end of book 3).
Also very easy to scale things up or down if required.
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Anyone change the map for Talmandor's Bounty to account for more buildings and infrastructure over the course of the AP?
And are willing to share what you came up with?
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got the remaster Player and GM Core hardcovers before Christmas. Yay!
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Belryan wrote: ...
I have pretty much all of book 3 prepped, except for the last battle, because I don't know what they will negate before hand, and also because it confuses the heck out of me.
The one combat round per turn thing seems really brutal, because they could potentially get bogged down in a combat slog due to some poor rolls and then have a bunch of the events go down without them interfering. Did everyone basically run this exactly as written?
...
yeah - pretty much.
I created a battle tracker spreadsheet.
Send me a PM and I'll give you the OneDrive link to it if you want.
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late, but for the Shellcracker caves I handwaved it as the bottom of the passage being rock filled rather than just sand. Wasn't 100% believable but reckon I succeeded my bluff check. Fortunately, I got to the quicksand rescue map and managed to edit that before it had to be used.
My group is already used to map mistakes from the last AP.
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Belryan wrote: Brother Fen wrote: Page 18 descirbes Area J3. Prisoner Cages as being "along an abrupt cliff which drops 80 feet below".
The map alone is very confusing, but I used this bit of description to help layout the area by placing the cages up high on a cliff meaning the area leading to it is an incline with the rest of the camp being in the valley below it.
If anyone else is having difficulties, here's a version I did that might make it slightly clearer, though perhaps not entirely accurate - I essentially had the entire map sloping from left to right, with the left part of the map being too steep / inaccessible, and the right side sloping down to ground level:
Ridgeline Camp 52 x 62
However, it's probably supposed to be sloping down on both sides - which I might fix before running it. Can't access your maps, but yes it is supposed to be sloping down on both sides rather than the left side being higher than the camp.
"This camp, which sits atop a rocky ridge that runs along the eastern edge of the Hollow Hills"
"The camp is visible from afar" and the sentry towers are keeping an eye out on both sides.
I had the slope on the left side a lot less steep than the right side (which is basically a cliff where the cages are, and a bit to the north). PCs can either follow the ridgeline to come at the camp from north or south, have a gentle climb up the left side, or a very steep climb up the right side.
If the party can get to the base of the cliff on the right hand side unseen and can get up the cliff, then they have a good chance of being able to attack before the sentries see them.
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finally got the shipping notice and access to the PDFs.
Now to see if the physical copies arrive before Christmas.
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Cyder wrote: N9ne of mine has shipped, no pdfs, no response from CS. No updates here. same - emailed 4 days ago and <crickets chirping>.
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Glad to hear that others (especially in Straya) have received books. Still waiting on PDFs here after emailing last week. :-(
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Sethvir wrote: ...
Anyway, my question is, how were you managing the river crossing by the PC's getting to the munitions camp? Using the ferry or were they relying on other magics, Walk on Water and such?
Thanks.
Mine took the ferry. Keeps the locals involved. Wizard could cast mount so easy to travel fast overland (faster than a boat can go upriver).
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Erpa wrote: erucsbo wrote: we have completed the Ironfang Invasion Adventure Path
Congrats! Sounded like a pretty great last battle, where it wasn't an automatic win for the PCs! That's about all you can hope for!
Did you do any kind of thing like an epilogue to what happened to the region, the PCs, et cetera? Anyone stay and make their home or kingdom there? What happened to ownership of the Onyx Citadel and it's magics? Not really. I gave the players the opportunity to do so and there were some general comments by some on what their character was planning on doing but I think they were more keen to get started on Ruins of Azlant with new characters.
Timewise we finished near the end of the session, and one of the players was heading OS for a month so it provided a good break.
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Avoiding any spoilers:
You are better off reacting to the AP rather than trying to metagame it.
The Player's Guide gives you enough information to avoid nerfing yourself later.
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norsethunder wrote: Couple map questions:
The western wall of H18 looks like it's made of bars. Is it actually or is that just a mistake due to the jail cells in H17?
H34 has two stairways leading into/out of it, L and R. L clearly corresponds to the L on H35, but I can't find another R. I'm assuming it's a mistype and it corresponds to K just north of H27, but swapping R for K seems like an odd typo (not anywhere near each other on the keyboard).
Quality control on this book is a step down from the last 2 which were a step down from the first 3. They even issued an update for the map pack and still left in errors (door colours, staircase D, etc.).
I think the R is supposed to be a K, it is just that whoever did the typesetting for the final version of the map misread the K as R (smudge or lined up with top wall of room perhaps).
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we have completed the Ironfang Invasion Adventure Path
I used Opportune Parry and Riposte and Dodging Dance and at the end Azaersi got another go with Cheat Death.
Killed the Trickster and Fighter and sent the eidolon away as well as a last gasp attack.
Party managed to trap one of the obsidian golems in Create Pit.
I gave Azaersi displacement and a ring of spell turning and bumped up her equipment as well. Also had Azaersi and Zanathura with True Seeing.
They had watched the party and had prepared, casting the longer duration spells as soon as the mana battery was discharged.
Also had energy resistance to fire and cold.
Rolled really well for Azaersi and with auto crit x4 on 17-20 she did significant damage and taking out the Trickster (party healer) early certainly slowed the fighter being able to keep getting filled up after taking damage. Resorted to begging the Enthroned King for temp hit points before going down after another couple of critical hits from Azaersi.
Ended up being the eidolon using blind sight that landed enough hits on Azaersi to force her to use Cheat Death.
A bit of extra summoning went on with 3 ice elementals, 3 angels, 3 centipede swarms all joining the fight.
Spell turning never got used - was hoping the Summoner would try a Dismissal but only spells used were area of effect or ray (disintegrate).
Could have been more casualties if Zanathura had lasted another round but the Fighter was extra keen to make sure she was paste before engaging Azaersi.
On to Ruins of Azlant next but will lurk here to see how others go, so please post your campaign updates.
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Mathmuse wrote: ... However, my player characters decided to fly in invisibly to H28, Upper Terrace, so they never had a battle on the bridge ... And mine teleported invisibly on to the balcony below that.
IMHO it is very poorly designed for any party with at least a smidgeon of intelligence.
The Ironfang are lawful and unlikely to just send waves of mooks. They would more likely pepper the party with arrows and javelins and rely on those already stationed in the citadel and other citadel defenses to deal with anyone trying to get in.
If the party are stupid enough to try a frontal assault then have them deal with a hail of troop missile fire until they get under cover.
Alarm is raised and expect any defenses inside the citadel to be alert and prepared.
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almost but not quite finished.
Party headed up to the mana battery where the trickster (with permanent detect magic) peeked around the corner. I gave her a will save to pull back from the blinding display but she failed, so developed colourblindness. I said the room was blazing with octarine. Most of the players got the reference.
As far as I can find there is nothing about the effects of colourblindness, so I've ruled at our table that it washed out the colours making perception harder for things that required seeing variations in colour, and that while detect magic could still pick up auras, it was impossible to distinguish between schools of magic - kinda like having darkvision for magic.
Rogue had a couple of potions of remove blindness so casually tossed one to the trickster to set her right.
There was discussion about how to discharge the battery and ended up just letting the rogue do it. With her evasion and high reflex, plus a feat that allowed rerolling a 1 on saving throw, there was really no chance for her to fail. The rest of the party hid on the staircase.
Afterwards I changed the room description to say that small arcs of magical lightning were slowly travelling down from the ceiling to the metallic diagrams.
Party searched some more in the level below and found Zanathura's journal scrap and the switch in the armoire.
By then the alarm had been raised and the faerie dragon (still back where the party entered and maintaining the illusion of hobgoblins) informed the party that troops were starting to mobilize from below the citadel and make their way through the gatehouse into the citadel proper.
The rogue offered to create a mess and distraction and rescue her familiar (who couldn't get through the doors back into the citadel) while the party headed through the secret door. (Rogue is an NPC - so this was a way of getting her sneak attack damage and insta-kills away from future encounters and letting the PCs have more spotlight)
Wizard cast wall of stone to block off the dueling academy from the rest of the citadel after the rogue left (but not before making sure she was attuned to the bracelet of friends held by the wizard).
Party headed down and triggered the golem in the false ritual room. Some major damage dealt both to and by the fighter. Wizard also cast shapechange on her familiar (bat) and both of them changed into brass dragons and breathed on the golem. Fighter hit the golem with a critical hit (auto-confirmed and multiplier one better due to fighter capstone) doing more than 200 points of damage (when the golem had about 50 left).
I described the hammer blow as acting like Newton's cradle where parts of the golem on the other side flew off before other bits popped apart and it eventually crumbed in a heap.
Felt that the indestructible nature of the golem was a bit much and didn't add to the story at this point. Fighter wanted to scoop all of the bits of the shattered golem into his bags of holding (due to the value of the metal) but when informed that the bags wouldn't hold that much (4000 pounds!) the summoner opened a gate back to Longshadow and it was shovelled through.
Down again and to the transposition engine - Zanathura got off an acid fog but failed to trap the fighter in a force cage. The wizard managed to trap Azaersi in a maze for a round. Obsidian golems came out and were spraying damage.
Zanathura tried polymorph any object on the wizard, but as she still had shapechange going it was ineffective.
So far Zanathura has been knocked down, and one of the golems has been destroyed, but Azaersi is still up as well as 3 other golems.
I have a bit of time to brush up on swashbuckler tactics before we conclude the AP in the next session.
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If you decide to advance things so that the PCs get to have 20th level characters before the end of the AP - just know that the rogue capstone is wicked. Of the 4 Ironfang Shadows, Azlowe and 3 Witcheater Cultists, and Henra with 4 Ironfang Honor Guards encountered so far in the assault on the Citadel, only 1 Shadow, 1 Cultist, and 1 Honor Guard have survived being one-shotted by the rogue.
Actually one of the Honor Guards was baleful polymorphed before the rogue had her action (full round of sneak attack with bow).
Greater Invisibility (on the rogue) plus sniper goggles = sneak attack at any distance. And with skill unlock on Sense Motive to give bonus to initiative she clears most of the field before they get a chance to act.
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Mathmuse wrote: ...
It used the magic sandbox to create a 3d model of the Onyx Citadel and explained its floorplan to the party. ...
Thankfully my players didn't think to ask that, as I might have come up with bogus maps if they did as the citadel (and towers) can be rearranged.
p34 "It can display a detailed model of the Onyx Citadel, reflecting the castle as it was long before the Ironfang Legion overran it."
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GM prep really ramps up in this one with some totally ineffective enemy tactics.
Azlowe uses Dispel Magic? If the PCs haven't multiclassed then caster level is likely to be 17. Mine are 20. DC for Dispel Magic is 11+Caster level, so likely at least 28, and for mine 31. Azlowe is CL10. That means he'd need to roll an 18 to affect by the book PC spells and has no chance working on mine. I think Debilitating Portent, with Firewalker's Meditation from the day before might be on the cards instead.
Witcheater cultists cast Blasphemy? "Creatures whose Hit Dice exceed your caster level are unaffected by blasphemy." Totally ineffective unless the cultists are bumped up 3 levels (or 6 in my case).
Comments have already been made on other named enemy builds.
Was this never playtested or did the development team just think it was a good idea to give freebies to the PCs?
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Wizard cast Polymorph Any Object on the fighter to turn him into a duplicate - sneaky way to get a permanent +2 strength, but we'll see if Dispel Magic ends up knocking it off.
Party wind walked across Argent Lake then spied out the Citadel (rogue with skill unlock on perception and a spyglass can essentially see forever), before deciding to teleport behind the hobgoblins in H23.
It was over before the hobgoblins got a chance to react and the fighter stuffed the bodies in a spare type IV bag of holding as the rogue's familiar (faerie dragon) cast silent image to make it look to the patrolling gargoyles like the hobgoblins were still there.
Bypassed the alarm in H24 and combat is about to start in H25.
If they are quick and go in the right direction they could get to the encounter with Azaersi while 3/4 of the citadel are unaware of the incursion.
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Aubrin gets hit by a ballista.
Your choice on what to do with your campaign, but IMHO a crippling blow rather than death is more representative of what the campaign is about.
Ironfang Invasion is actually more about finding your place in the world, and how do you do that when others think your place should belong to them.
The Ironfang are just doing to Nirmathas what Nirmathas did to Molthune and what Molthune did to Cheliax.
The canonical ending actually breaks that cycle.
It ain't going to happen in my campaign which turned very much to revenge, but at least the players have been having fun all the way through.
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Mathmuse wrote: ...
I am also trying to mentally untangle the 35 rooms in the Onyx Citadel in preparation for the party arriving there. It is quite a maze. ...
And there is no guarantee that the PCs will enter via the main entrance, especially given flight and dimensional travel are commonplace.
I'm having to add extra defenses to every opening - since the PCs have been watched in previous encounters (either by reports from those involved or by the crystal ball - which I changed to have True Sight instead of Telepathy).
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Phantom chariot to Molten Nexus and trickster rolled high on Diplomacy to get Irigibel to agree to the nexus realignment. Sense Motive from the rogue (skill unlock as well) sending messages telepathically via faerie dragon familiar to the trickster to keep up the praise of the dragon plus an offer to come back to regenerate her scales. Roleplayed well and dragon gave up some scales to assist in the party's planned attack on the Ironfang.
Chariot again to Shard Nexus and again good diplomacy (plus crystal statues from the archive) before fighter had a wrestle with Cragcrusher - just failing to push him out of the ring.
Chariot to Flow Nexus and zarxorin caught them by surprise with it's energy blast destroying the chariot, but a very lucky baleful polymorph by the wizard ended that fight fairly quickly.
3 nexus in one session and trickster remembered that they have air walk so resting and then onto the Onyx Citadel.
Also bumped the PCs to 20th level so they have a chance to play at that level.
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Up to your players. There is a certain amount of bookkeeping and you really want to delegate this to your players as much as possible.
Mine weren't that interested so I did most of it narratively. They found the overhead of the survival rules a bit too much like work so when the time came to delegate them to the now settled refugees they did so. We had some of the PCs spend time training NPCs while others were crafting, but nothing more than that.
There are other simplistic rules in later books if you don't implement the militia system.
If you do then book 2 ramps it up and book 3 expands on it more - so you can start now if you want and have it build up over time.
Book 4 and 5 are essentially not using the militia for any on-camera action, and book 6 only has it as an aside if you want for the first part.
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Mathmuse wrote: ...
The PCs would love safe and boring battles, but the players themselves want excitement. Thus, we end up with what my players did: the PCs trained the NPCs, the NPCs demonstrated their good training to make the players proud, and then the party left the NPCs behind (to protect the town or some other excuse) to avoid slowing down the game.
Similar here though I think my players just want to kill and loot so will take any opportunity to have their characters do it (though surprisingly they have managed a few encounters recently through diplomacy - not with the Ironfang though).
At the end of Trail and Fangs while some of the PCs were doing crafting, the fighter and rogue helped train up refugees (as warriors and scouts).
Aubrin and then Cirieo were pretty much left as the militia leaders for off-camera stuff while Cobb rebuilt the Rangers.
In Assault on Longshadow I had a contingent of Rangers and militia leave Fangwood to come to Longshadow while the rest continued to look after the forts and Misthome. Those that came were put in charge of the Longshadow recruits that had been trained up by the fighter and rogue while the other PCs were doing other defense work. When it got to the actual battle my players weren't as interested in leading groups like Mathmuse's, but more acting as the strike force for the big events.
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pi4t wrote: ...
These aren't described in the text of the adventures as helpless refugees who need protecting.
...
Don't get me wrong, they aren't helpless nor need protecting. Nirmathi pride themselves on being self-sufficient and capable of defending themselves, but there is a difference between guerilla tactics that they are used to using against Molthuni - cutting supply lines and generally making things uncomfortable to invaders until they leave - versus acting as an organised force against superior defences set up by invaders who are intent on staying.
The shift from that to an organised fighting force starts in Fangs of War.
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Mathmuse wrote: erucsbo wrote: pi4t wrote: I'm confused about what the militia is supposed to be doing during this book. Whether or not you're using the subsystem, the PCs are still working with a group of warriors wanting to defend their homeland. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to bring their militia to attack the keeps, rather than doing everything themselves? They aren't warriors wanting to defend their homeland. They are displaced villagers trying to stay alive and make a living (which sometimes means taking up arms to defend / protect themselves or harry an enemy in the hope that they go away). Sigh, I was confused by three possible meanings of "militia," and erucsbo finds a fourth meaning, that pi4t might think that the refugees evacuated from Phaendar are a militia. ... <grin>
Having a look back through Fangs of War, particularly p54, IMHO the PCs have a choice. Spend time training up the Misthome refugees into a militia (and supplementing with the other recruits mentions (most of whom are not available until after the forts have been liberated)), or move quickly before the Ironfang further strengthens their position.
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pi4t wrote: I'm confused about what the militia is supposed to be doing during this book. Whether or not you're using the subsystem, the PCs are still working with a group of warriors wanting to defend their homeland. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to bring their militia to attack the keeps, rather than doing everything themselves? They aren't warriors wanting to defend their homeland. They are displaced villagers trying to stay alive and make a living (which sometimes means taking up arms to defend / protect themselves or harry an enemy in the hope that they go away).
Bringing the refugees along to fights that aren't directly involving them will likely get many of them killed - which wouldn't help the PCs' reputation.
If you want to keep them involved then use them as scouts and messengers.
But, it's your game, so if the players want to build their own army rather than be the strikeforce themselves then go ahead.
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Couple of sessions since last update
Encounter with Oktar went predictably with the eidolon rushing in and saying "surrender or die" then proceeding to attack without waiting for a reply. This was while half the party (including fighter and wizard) were still in the southern exhibition room. He only got a to down an extract of greater invisibility and say that they were fighting without honour and that they might be better to work against a common enemy first before he was cut down.
Trickster decided to disintegrate the front of the vat holding the invisible goblin and coup de grace it as the rest moved on.
Amazingly there was compliance with the clockwork angel's demands and the group successfully moved past it and the sandmen before meeting Ziguch.
Everyone saved vs the mind fog (in fact there wasn't a single failed save on either side in the first couple of rounds).
The party noticed the immortal ichor in round 2 and the wizard shapechanged into a gorgon and breathed on it - first failed save - petrified ichor.
The ichor failed its second save to get out of it, and while not breathed on again - enough damage was done by the fighter and spellcasters to shatter the petrified ichor and free Ziguch.
Sandbox was used and Ziguch dismissed the party saying that they could take what they wanted except for the rod (powering the lights) and not to interrupt the experiments.
On leaving the archive Kraelos was outside stonehome making demands (I added an extra troop as well).
Once again the party decided that as it was Ironfang hobgoblins the appropriate response was to enter into "extreme negotiations" - meaning kill them all quickly.
Buffing the rogue with greater invisibility and letting her fire off goblin-bane arrows at Kraelos (and her faerie dragon familiar dropping the largest bead from the newly acquired necklace) left Kraelos one small hit from death before he even got a chance to act.
The fighter charged in and missed with a 1, but the eidolon got in a swing and off flew the hobgoblin's head. The troops put up a bit more of a fight and did some damage with their volleys, but when the wizard shapechanged (it was still active) into a dragon and breathed a couple of times (coupled with the damage output from the fighter and rogue and another couple of beads from the necklace) it was game over.
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norsethunder wrote: How exactly does the system for the war council work? I found the description to be pretty vague. My take was that there are a couple of paths to Influence.
Either of
A -> Diplomacy DC or Bluff DC -> Successful Influence
B -> Sense Motive DC20 -> Non-Diplomacy/Bluff DC -> Successful Influence
in addition they can attempt discovery
C -> Interests DC -> info to give +4 competence bonus on path A or B
Note that it is a competence bonus, so if the PC is wearing a circlet of persuasion or has something else providing a competence bonus to the skill being used to influence (Diplomacy, Bluff, other) then it doesn't stack.
You can let them know the Interests skills to use - if successful this reveals the text under Discovery which they have to work into roleplay for the Influence check in order to get the +4 bonus.
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Grumpus wrote: Here's a reminder. When you get to the Kraelos encounter (event-2) don't forget to include the key to H24 in his gear. Also if they encounter Azlowe, he should have a key also. They forgot to put it in their statblocks, but only tell you who has keys in the H24 description. excellent timing! might be encountering Kraelos next session! thanks for the tip
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norsethunder wrote: What gives Arlantia her fly speed? She doesn't have fly in her listed spells (not that it's on the cleric list anyway) and none of her magic items give her a fly speed. Harbinger of the Blight (Su) "she can command the fungus to carry her aloft, granting her a fly speed of 40 feet (perfect)"
norsethunder wrote: Also, my players dealt with the four moldy hobgoblins pretty easily by tagging the molds with magic missile. The molds have that ability where they can make a reflex save to dodge incoming attacks, but magic missile doesn't have an attack roll associated. It feels a little cheap to dispatch them so easily but I don't see any reason not to go with that ruling, especially since they're only CR 4. The only problem is now I have to figure out what to do with the four surviving hobgoblins. I have a feeling they'll free Taurgreth pretty quickly and he'll escape with his comrades into the forest before the PCs can pursue. My players are rabidly anti-Ironfang and cared less about the mold than just killing the hobgoblins and are therefore very unlikely to end up with the canonical ending. If your group does end up freeing the hobgoblins then it opens up a heap of role-play options in book 6.
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Reverse Gravity by the wizard on Shaakhib and the golem. I had the genie sink his foot into the earth to stay grounded and the golem punched the ground and held on before they both managed to move themselves out of the area of effect.
Attacks on Shaakhib revealed the Shield Other effect.
Wizard caught Shaakhib in an Icy Prison and the fighter pushed it back into the reverse gravity area but Shaakhib Plane Shifted away.
[There was a bit of table discussion about whether or not the icy prison would go as well. In the end we had it shift with the genie though I originally had it stay, and after doing a bit more research probably would have it stay behind.]
Golem got a breath of gas on the eidolon but didn't really stand a chance.
Archive next and the sandmen. Everyone passed the sleep effect (multiple times) so didn't take too long for them to get whacked as well.
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bump to L19.
Stone Road to the Vault has been taken and pech encountered. The fighter offered booze as a welcome.
Since we were playing on St Patrick's Day, pech now talk with an Irish accent.
Picnic in front of Stonehome was interrupted with the arrival of Shaakhib. Party managed to make themselves hidden before the shaitan gave his ultimatum. Scrying sensor was detected and pech refused the ultimatum.
We stopped at the initiative roll.
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Grumpus wrote: We played the final session a couple days ago.
The party was victorious and let's just say the country of Oprak isn't going to exist in this version of Golarion.
Things I changed:...
thanks for the tips.
Was thinking the same though worried that adding a heal or 2 for A is just going to extend the final slight into a slog (hit, hit, heal, rinse, repeat).
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Grumpus wrote: The interactive maps still have a glitch in that a lot of the doors are solid brown rectangles on top of the white doors.
(see doors from room b2-b3, b6-b7 and the majority of doors on the citadel itself.) Its as if the Onyx walls of the towers/citadel have begun to grow and absorb the doors.
very true, and indicative of the drop in quality especially on maps and for the last 3 books.
I'll keep the idea of the doors turning to onyx up my sleeve just in case the players notice and comment on it. :-)
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Just noticed that the digital download for Book 6 was updated last year (Feb 2022). The toggle tags on the maps weren't working on the older version but are fixed now. Not sure if there were other changes.
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