Under the Rules for magic item creation is specifically calls to question that ability to make things without having the needed requirements by increasing the DC to make the item by 5 per missing requirement.
An example provided, by paizo, is the ability to make an item without the ability to cast the needed spell. Therefore the requirement the creator lacks is "The ability to cast 3rd level spells"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
Now the item I have a series of questions about is: Gloves of Elvenkind
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove s-of-elvenkind/
A) Say I am a human, Could I craft this item by increasing the DC by 5?
B )Could I Craft it without having combat casting by increasing the DC by 5?
C) a gold cost is listed, for 3500 gp, is it possible to create this item without expending that gold, again by increasing the DC by 5?
is it possible to create this item without expending that gold, again by increasing the DC by 5?
Normally I'd try to come up with a rules citation to respond to a question like that, but in this case...
The answer is no. Nope. No way.
No, at best there are feats and other ways to lower the cost.
is it possible to create this item without expending that gold, again by increasing the DC by 5?Normally I'd try to come up with a rules citation to respond to a question like that, but in this case...
The answer is no. Nope. No way.
Now as a GM i would say no way to this as well. But I cant find anything ruling against it by RAW since it has been officially deemed possible to make items that require spells higher than the wizard has capabilities to cast by adding +5 to the DC due to "inability to cast nth level spells".
I'm just curious how far these "perquisites" needed to create can be stretched.
For example, the other 2 requirements i mention, i see no reason these wouldnt fall under the "increase DC by 5" area.
Crafting Cost isn't listed under "Requirements", therefore you cannot ignore it.
The gold is for the materials, its not actually a pre-requisite for the process. For instance, if someone were to give you 3500 gp's worth of materials you would have gotten around paying the money (as happens all the time between pc's).
Much like the crafting feat required for the target item you cannot get around actually having the materials to create the target item, but you don't necessarily have to pay for them yourself. Having another PC pay the material cost of the crafting does not increase the DC by 5.
Echo what has been said above. Magic items are super expensive in PF, but making them free is NOT the answer.
The gold is for the materials, its not actually a pre-requisite for the process. For instance, if someone were to give you 3500 gp's worth of materials you would have gotten around paying the money (as happens all the time between pc's).
Much like the crafting feat required for the target item you cannot get around actually having the materials to create the target item, but you don't necessarily have to pay for them yourself. Having another PC pay the material cost of the crafting does not increase the DC by 5.
I can see this ruling based of RAW.
However im still curious about the other two requirements. They undoubtedly match the criteria the clause "Increase the DC by 5" is talking about, yes?
I can see this ruling based of RAW.However im still curious about the other two requirements. They undoubtedly match the criteria the clause "Increase the DC by 5" is talking about, yes?
Pretty much, yes.
The craft wondrous item feat is the only prereq of the three listed that cannot be substituted with a +5 adjustment to the construction DC. Combat casting and being an elf look to be fair game to replace.
Yeah, nope!
Cost is not a requirement. It has a different heading and everything...
You can see this more obviously in the PRD than in the SRD.
Also your example is wrong the lack is "the ability to cast the specific spell required".
A) yes
B) yes
C) he11 no!
Under the Rules for magic item creation is specifically calls to question that ability to make things without having the needed requirements by increasing the DC to make the item by 5 per missing requirement.
An example provided, by paizo, is the ability to make an item without the ability to cast the needed spell. Therefore the requirement the creator lacks is "The ability to cast 3rd level spells"
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/#TOC-Magic-Item-CreationNow the item I have a series of questions about is: Gloves of Elvenkind
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove s-of-elvenkind/A) Say I am a human, Could I craft this item by increasing the DC by 5?
B )Could I Craft it without having combat casting by increasing the DC by 5?
C) a gold cost is listed, for 3500 gp, is it possible to create this item without expending that gold, again by increasing the DC by 5?
1. The answer is no, no, and hell no.
2. Would you rather go back to the days when you had to spend experience points AND gold instead?
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pls, pls no
Yeah, nope!
Cost is not a requirement. It has a different heading and everything...You can see this more obviously in the PRD than in the SRD.
I can see that plane as day with that citation. I agree entirely. gloves-of-elvenkind was a little misleading
Being able to ignore the gold cost of the item with a sufficiently high Spellcraft check would make crafting even more abuseable than it is. Why not just take the next step and allow the crafting time to be ignored for an additional +5 DC while you're at it? Instant magic items for free!
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If you use the downtime rules, you can pay for crafting using Magic capital, though that isn't free either.
But you get to pay 1/2 of the production cost with the money spent to make the magical capital (for a total gold cost of 1/4 of the purchase price), and the other half with time.
If you put up a magic shop with assistants gathering/producing the magical capital you can greatly reduce the production cost of magic items.
Yup, though apparently that sort of setup gives several people the 'willies' here. It's violating some cardinal rule that 'thou shall not make money except by adventuring', or something.
Well, to be fair, it can easily break the "wealth is a second XP track" paradigm beyond all hope of repair.
In other words, #&$#y design causes $#^%y problems that can't be fixed without invoking more &$%#. Also just in, water is wet.
Aww, I hoped this thread would be about crafting items with specific reagents, not trying to skip ingredients altogether. Oh well. =/
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Yup, though apparently that sort of setup gives several people the 'willies' here. It's violating some cardinal rule that 'thou shall not make money except by adventuring', or something.Well, to be fair, it can easily break the "wealth is a second XP track" paradigm beyond all hope of repair.
In other words, #&$#y design causes $#^%y problems that can't be fixed without invoking more &$%#. Also just in, water is wet.
Beside Kingmaker, you really have that much time to do that in an Adventure path?
In a free form campaign, or one that was devised by you that can happen, but if you are developing a campaign, why you assume that there is an unlimited market for powerful magic items?My group has evaluated that the purchasing capability of a gold piece is between 20 to 50 € (or , with that kind of approximation it make little difference). How big is the market for items that sell at 20,000+ dollars in a city with 30K inhabitants?
The rules loot loot selling are there for ease of play, but if you play with the kind of detail needed to use that part of the downtime rules you will have to keep the world economics in mind.
The problem is with the ability of the magic items crafters to bypass their limits with easy to achieve spellcraft rolls.
When a 5th level character can make with ease items that require a caster level of 12 (like a +4 weapon), a lot of wealth is a problem.
But if you limit that (even simply with a restrictive reading of the rules, like "every missing level is a missing prerequisite, so you need to add 5 to the DC for every level you lack"), the situation become manageable.
Item crafting is all about DM fiat.
Aww, I hoped this thread would be about crafting items with specific reagents, not trying to skip ingredients altogether. Oh well. =/
I came here with the same hope. :P
My GM pitched the idea of breaking down existing magic items into components (at a lesser value) that would then be used to craft new items.
No one has taken him up on this yet, tho...
Technically, there is a way:
A NE character that uses Improved Familiar to gain a cacodaemon, with the cacodaemon using their Soul Lock ability to create soul gems of creatures killed.
Based on The Soul Trade valuations/guidelines, accumulating enough soul gems to cover the cost of creating a magic item is a fairly straightforward, if time consuming, process. Of course, the character will become a target of good people wishing to stop them and certain evil forces (night hags, other daemons) that wish to "acquire" the character's collection.
Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
Any GM who would allow that to work is a fool, or so far off the beaten path of "normal" that it wont matter.
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Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
The items created by blood money last 1 round. Then they revert to blood. Fabricate convert the items, but they are still the same item, it hasn't been used up as a material component. so you end with a few bars of blood, and then a puddle of blood.
Not very valuable.
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Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.The items created by blood money last 1 round. Then they revert to blood. Fabricate convert the items, but they are still the same item, it hasn't been used up as a material component. so you end with a few bars of blood, and then a puddle of blood.
Not very valuable.? Why would you say that. Material components are, by definition, used up by the spell.
So fabricate is a traceless disintegrate?
Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.The items created by blood money last 1 round. Then they revert to blood. Fabricate convert the items, but they are still the same item, it hasn't been used up as a material component. so you end with a few bars of blood, and then a puddle of blood.
Not very valuable.? Why would you say that. Material components are, by definition, used up by the spell.
Generally, yes, but specific overrides general.
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Two spells. Blood money + Fabricate == N number gold bars/coins depending on how much strength you can afford to lose. Use money to craft item. Bypass other requirements via +5 DC.
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.The items created by blood money last 1 round. Then they revert to blood. Fabricate convert the items, but they are still the same item, it hasn't been used up as a material component. so you end with a few bars of blood, and then a puddle of blood.
Not very valuable.? Why would you say that. Material components are, by definition, used up by the spell.
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.
As written in the spell description, and cited above, the spell transmute the targeted material component.
So you either use blood money to create the materials that are transmuted, and so at the end of the round the material is still the same, only in a new form, and return to be blood, or you choose not to read that line of the spell and say that the targeted material is not produced by blood money, but then you need to provide the targeted material.So, the spell destroys the material and leaves you with an crafted object comprised of the same material.
Let's say you start with logs, and end up with a chair. Is the bark and sawdust that would be left by the crafting process also left by the Fabricate spell?
So you choose to disregard the spell text?
I allow bypassing some of the gold cost if the Player is ingenious with suitably talismanic or exceptionally creative materials to craft with.
But unless it is part of my campaign hook, you ain't gonna get away with paying nothing.
I'm with _Ozy_ on this one.
#1 basic rule: "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process."
#2 "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.": nothing here invalidated #1, so no "specific overrides general".
For fabricate to work the other way it would have to be written like masterwork transformation.
Masterwork Transformation
Components V, S, M (see below)
Target one weapon, suit of armor, shield, tool, or skill kit touched
So you could make Fabricate:
Components V, S
Target material that costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.
Now, you'd have a reason to not let blood money work...