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The vestigial arms granted by the alchemist discovery are a copy of the alchemist's arms or they are completely different?
Im not asking about extra attacks, but if a race with natural claws, like a tengu or a succubus alchemist 2, take the discovery, will they have 3 claws now? Or the new vestigial arm is always "human-like"?
Vestigial arms, if we pay attention to the meaning of the word, even though they are not descripted, should be like small and creepy underdeveloped arms. I guess they aren't described to allow each player to describe them as they like.
The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
I'd say the bolded part is a pretty good argument towards letting it have claws or whatever. It doesn't specifically mention natural attacks though, FAQ'd.
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
So yeah. No. They really don't want you getting extra attacks. The vestigial arms are there so you can do stuff even when your other hands are full.
Although I am sure someone is going to make an apples to oranges argument involving unarmed strikes. I find such arguments hard to accept, since this is a case where RAI was been written, quite clearly, to the point that it is RAW (as much as a FAQ is a part of that).
...It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or
you didn't actually read the post did you? that FAQ does not cover the thing it is asking about
And you didn't read the part I highlighted, did you? The part exactly right before the quotation cut off in your post.
That FAQ does, in fact, cover the issue of claws.
"The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists."
The point here is that they didn't want to give you extra attacks for a single discovery at level 2. They expressly mention 'using a race with existing claws' since this exact topic was brought up before.
Getting room for extra natural attacks is often an entire capstone of some things (like the evangelist prestige class, one of the few good prestige classes). Because it is very, very high value.
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What I think is being asked is do you have actual claws on the limbs while knowing they don't give you extra attacks.
Example:
2 claws attacks at level one when you full attack.
Level 2: Three arms each with a claw. Full attack 2 claw attacks.
Why this is relevant is if you are carrying something in your arms you don't want to drop but it's not in your vestigial arm. If the vestigial arm has a claw then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't then you will have to drop items in the clawed limb(s) to use that limb for those attacks.
I think the text is not 100% clear. Personally as a DM I might give it to the player.
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^ this, the FAQ only talks about getting extra attacks. The post is asking about whether the vestigial arms have claws. Two separate things
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Why this is relevant is if you are carrying something in your arms you don't want to drop but it's not in your vestigial arm. If the vestigial arm has a claw then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't then you will have to drop items in the clawed limb(s) to use that limb for those attacks.
It's also relevant to manicure costs.
Not clear.
I would probably let you arm have the claws if your race naturally had claws, or if you had a power that added claws to your hands. However, even in the event that it you had a power that gave you claws, you would still be restricted to only making 2 claw attacks per round.
I can't see this being super important. Only if you are holding objects and need to decide whether to drop something or not.
Of course it's a free action to pass objects between hands...so I still don't really see why it's necessary.
If the vestigial arm has a claw then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't then you will have to drop items in the clawed limb(s) to use that limb for those attacks.
Or pass the item from the clawed limb to the vestigial limb as a free action before you attack.
What I think is being asked is do you have actual claws on the limbs while knowing they don't give you extra attacks.
Example:
2 claws attacks at level one when you full attack.
Level 2: Three arms each with a claw. Full attack 2 claw attacks.
Why this is relevant is if you are carrying something in your arms you don't want to drop but it's not in your vestigial arm. If the vestigial arm has a claw then there is nothing to worry about. If it doesn't then you will have to drop items in the clawed limb(s) to use that limb for those attacks.
I think the text is not 100% clear. Personally as a DM I might give it to the player.
I think the FAQ quoted in the thread makes it suitably clear. The arm is fully functional (not really vestigial at all) and if you have claws you'd be able to use it in a normal manner. You'd just have to attack with left and right, or left and vestigial, or right and vestigial, but never left, right, and vestigial all at once.
And that also means that if you are carrying something in 2 arms, the third can make an attack no matter which 2 arms are busy with the carry task.
It's also relevant to manicure costs.
And deodorant bills...
Is it actually a free action to pass something from one limb to another? Didn't know that.
I suppose it would still matter if you were making an AO against someone.
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Ok, Vestigial arm says nothing about NOT having claws. Combined with the line from the FAQ "The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons." I would say they are definitely indicating that natural weapons on the vestigial arms are possible. just you do not get extra attacks from them.
So I would say as long as you naturally have claws, then yes, your vestigial arms also have claws. If you somehow got claws by a mechanic that specifies a specific number (2 for example) of clawed hands, then gaining any additional hands would NOT gain claws. Not that I know of anything that works that way, but just throwing it out there to cover the basics.
Even if someone were to say the arm does not have claws, remember that transitioning items between hands is a free action. If you were holding something in the clawed hand (assuming it's not a shield/attached item) just transition it to the vestigial arm before attacking.
If you are climbing or holding onto a ledge for dear life with both hands it seems like having a third arm that you can defend yourself with would be useful.
I'd say that FAQ pretty clearly answers this question.
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs
So, the restriction applies if your race has claws, and this would only be an issue if your vestigial arms had the claws from your race.
Is it actually a free action to pass something from one limb to another? Didn't know that.
I always believed it was but I don't think I ever checked before.
What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
So I guess it's two free actions? To transfer the item to your vestigal hand, you switch to two-handed grip (free action number one) then you release it with the other hand (free action number two).
Thanks. Seems reasonable.
I'm struggling to understand why it matters?
It matters actually.
If your primary attack is using natural attacks (claws for instance), and you happen to have one of your arms busy, be it grappled or holding something, that would still allow you to make your two claw attacks normally.
If the rule is that it does not "copy" your natural arms, then that would change how the arm can be used in case the others are busy with something else. Again, if you are grappled by your left arm, for instance, you could still use your vestigial arm for that second claw attack (or not).
As long as you dont make extra attacks, the vestigial arm can be used for combat, which means that if something else happens to your other limbs, the fact that you have an extra claw or not could change your combat options.
Say you have claw/claw/horn attack, but the target has DR 10/piercing (your horns), so you could instead make claw/claw/claw instead.
I'd say that FAQ pretty clearly answers this question.
No, and i bolded why not on the first post. Its not about extra attacks, but about having or not an extra natural weapon.
I'd say that FAQ pretty clearly answers this question.No, and i bolded why not on the first post. Its not about extra attacks, but about having or not an extra natural weapon.
And I explained why it actually did. That sentence is meaningless if you don't get the claws from your race on your vestigial arms.
^ this, the FAQ only talks about getting extra attacks. The post is asking about whether the vestigial arms have claws. Two separate things
Still seems unclear to me. From the scant info from the original post, it can be hard to tell if he was wondering 'whether I can have 3 claws as a physical feature' or 'whether I can have 3 claw attacks'
Usually, people first want to know if they can get more claw attacks.
But yes, I agree with the general consensus here that you can have the 'option' of a claw on the vestigial arm, but you can't do anything with it unless you sacrifice an attack from one of your regular arms.
Heck, even if you don't have claws from your race, I would say you could put the feral mutagen claws on the vestigial arms (which seems more visually interesting; kind of Doc Ock -ish really, with a pair of long limbs sprouting from behind your back and looming over you). The only thing that I want to make sure we are clear about is that you only have two total arms of effort, no matter the combo of weapons and claws you have.
I can't see this being super important.
Rend Body from PSYCHIC ANTHOLOGY. You lose one of your main arms and it's pretty important to figure out what the spare one has included...