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I'm really trying to find some way to build a character utilizing a Tower shield and Shield Brace, however with the fact that tower shield starts with a -2 to attacks, and shield brace adds the shield's ACP as a penalty to attack. That's already a -12 out the gate and I'm having to Nat 20 to do anything. Does anyone have any suggestions on what could be combined to reduce those penalties to a point that they are not crippling?
Or perhaps to do any kind of attack/combat maneuver where I'd be able to bypass those penalties?
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Not sure but a mithril tower Sheild seems like the place to start.
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Not sure but a mithril tower Sheild seems like the place to start.
You'd think that... but by Raw (this is for PFS), there is no Metal Tower Shield (at least not without encountering AS a mithril tower shield it on some random PFS Chronicle)
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see Combat). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield's encumbrance.
If you use a Darkwood (not mithral, shields are primarily wood) Tower Shield and take the first two feats in the Mobile Bulwark style feat chain you can get that down to a -9. I'm sure there are more things to do but thats where i'd start.
EDIT: Improved Shield Focus will shave another 1 ACP off that, so -8
I recccomend the tower shield specialist archetype for fighter, that reduces the penalty due to encumberance by 2. Then you get a darkwood tower shield for 2 less ACP. That brings the penalty down to -8. Also, I don't know if it is pfs legal or suits what you are looking for, but there is the mobile bulwark style that uses tower shields.
Edit: tower shield specialist brings ACP down by 3 bringing it to -5 to attack rolls.
Here's some ways to reduce your ACP.
-Tower Shield Specialist Fighter Archetype gives you improved Armor Training bonuses while using a Tower Shield. It also gives you proficiency with Tower Shields for free, otherwise you're stuck spending a feat with another class.
-Sash of the War Champion treats you as 4 levels higher for the purposes of Armor Training benefits. Since Tower Shield Specialist Archetype specifies it functions as the original feature, it applies. Does nothing by the late game, but a nice valued boost early on before you get Stat Belts. (Don't expect it to give you access to Advanced Armor Training feats.)
-Mithril Equipment cuts your ACP significantly (for both your Tower Shield and Full Plate), as well as their weight. It's expensive (~10,000 gold for both Full Plate and Tower Shield, though Full Plate takes the brunt of it), but if you're hating the Armor Check penalty, that's the way to reduce it.
-Tower Shield Specialist Feat reduces your ACP by another significant amount, and combines your Shield and Armor ACP into a single pool for the purposes of reducing ACP.
-Mobile Bulwark Feat Chain (eventually) removes the inherent Tower Shield penalty.
But, this is something that takes both time, levels, and gear to start out, and can only be done with specific characters.
In my opinion, the Tower Shield benefits aren't particularly worth it in the early game, especially lacking the ACP reductions, but later on, when you get some money and some abilities, can be worthwhile to do.
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If you use a Darkwood (not mithral, shields are primarily wood)
Force Tower in Ultimate Equipment would disagree with that assessment.
If you cannot make Mithril Tower Shields, then Force Tower would not exist as an item.
So, clearly you can.
Darkwood reduces ACP by 2, the Improved Shield Focus feat reduces it by 1. Not that -9 is much better than -12.
The mobile bulwark style line could reduce it another 2, but really I think the answer is don't use shield brace with a tower shield.
This might be what you're looking for? (its not something i've ever looked at before though, so not sure if this does what i think it does at first glance)
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You'd think that... but by Raw
Force Tower is a 46,030 gp +1 arrow deflection ghost touch mithral tower shield.
No one knows what it's ACP are but the thing weights 22 lbs.
As for this item proving you can make a generic mithral tower shield, that isn't how things work really. Lots of items are unique and can't be made outside those items.
If you use a Darkwood (not mithral, shields are primarily wood)Force Tower in Ultimate Equipment would disagree with that assessment.
If you cannot make Mithril Tower Shields, then Force Tower would not exist as an item.
So, clearly you can.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.) Mithral weapons count as silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Huh, now i'm confused as to why you would ever not choose Mithral as the material since it gives you a -3 to the ACP instead of a -2.
Looking at everything by level 5 you can get it down to -2(5from archetype, 3 from mithril, 1 from feat, 1 from sash of war champion)
Huh, now i'm confused as to why you would ever not choose Mithral as the material since it gives you a -3 to the ACP instead of a -2.
Well, darkwood's cheaper and definitely legal.
The Phalanx soldier fighter archetype can use a tower shield and a polearm without shield brace which I think is a better solution.
Best way to do it I'd say is to take three levels in Phalanx Soldier, a fighter archetype. The ability at 3rd level allows them to use a polearm in one hand while wielding a shield. But this version gives you the benefit of having no acp applied to the attack rolls. I would take the rest of the levels as Tower Shield Fighter or still continue in this archetype if desired.
You'd think that... but by RawForce Tower is a 46,030 gp +1 arrow deflection ghost touch mithral tower shield.
No one knows what it's ACP are but the thing weights 22 lbs.
As for this item proving you can make a generic mithral tower shield, that isn't how things work really. Lots of items are unique and can't be made outside those items.
Armor Check Penalty would be -7, as its Armor Check Penalty is reduced by 3 due to being made out of Mithril, same as any other Armor or Shield item. I don't see why that's an issue.
The weight is actually 22.5 pounds, half the weight of a regular Tower Shield but rounded down to 22 pounds, which is consistent with Mithril reducing the weight of items created by it by 50%.
Also, if you can't make a Mithril Tower Shield, then you cannot create a Force Tower. Well, I suppose you could, but then it wouldn't be a Mithril Tower Shield, as the description says it is, which means you're deviating from the item's listed properties, which makes it a custom item, which means it's illegal in a PFS situation. In other words, trying to make a Force Tower in PFS results in the uncertainty principle, where I can either know what is needed to make the item, or have what is needed to make the item, but not both to actually make the item.
Best way to do it I'd say is to take three levels in Phalanx Soldier, a fighter archetype. The ability at 3rd level allows them to use a polearm in one hand while wielding a shield. But this version gives you the benefit of having no acp applied to the attack rolls. I would take the rest of the levels as Tower Shield Fighter or still continue in this archetype if desired.
Too bad the two archetypes won't stack, because they replace/alter identical features.
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Huh, now i'm confused as to why you would ever not choose Mithral as the material since it gives you a -3 to the ACP instead of a -2.Well, darkwood's cheaper and definitely legal.
The Phalanx soldier fighter archetype can use a tower shield and a polearm without shield brace which I think is a better solution.
That is one of the alternative's I'm considering, but giving up both Armor and weapon training is just as painful...
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What is shield brace? I'm having trouble finding it on the SRD.
It's in Armor Master's Handbook, so it's not Open Source.
Shield Brace: You've mastered the art of balancing a polearm's weight against a shield's stability.
Pre req: Shield focus; BAB +3 or Fighter 1; proficiency with light, heavy, or tower shields.
Benefit: You can use a Two-Handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with which you are proficient. the shield's ACP (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon.
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I think I may be looking at a Tower Shield Specialist Archetype that runs a Heavy Darkwood shield until lvl 8, then the Tower Shield Specialist Feat can finally kick in and will be able to take that massive chunk out of the Tower Shield's ACP.
So that would mean at level 8 when I swap to Tower Shield it would have negated the -2 penalty from the tower shields encumbrance, and Armor Training + Tower Shield Specialist feat would reduce the ACP by 7 (Stat belt trumps the sash by now I think, just gaining the Strength bonus for attack/damage rather than losing the 1acp for attack.) and a darkwood towershield would be another -2. So I'd be taking a -1 to attack due to ACP.
This gives me a reasonable goal all without giving up too much in the way of feat/abilities until reaching that point. I think this can work out, just wish it could come together a little sooner.
As far as I can tell Mithril Tower Shields are not normally legal items. The Mobile Bulwark Chain mostly provides useful abilities, so I may pick up some, but it's not going to further reduce my ACP.
As for the Force Tower, PFS does have stipulations in place for upgrading items to specific magic gear, for instances like the Celestial Armor, or in this case Force Tower. They are not actual items you would be able to create and upgrade into. So while the item is still legal the only way to get it is to save up and buy it at full cost, rather than slowly building up to it. That leaves 46k gold as a rather pricey item for Characters that often stop getting played at level 12.
Thanks a lot for everyone's help. I think the only thing left is to bounce around the RAW wording of Tower Shield Specialist Feat in conjunction with the Armor Expert Trait.
if you have the armor training class feature, you modify the armor check penalty and maximum dexterity bonus of tower shields as if they were armor.
You have worn armor as long as you can remember, either as part of your training to become a knight's squire or simply because you were seeking to emulate a hero. Your childhood armor wasn't the real thing as far as protection, but it did encumber you as much as real armor would have, and you've grown used to moving in such suits with relative grace. When you wear armor of any sort, reduce that suit's armor check penalty by 1, to a minimum check penalty of 0.
While I have doubts if it's RAI, RAW I think would be that the armor training class feature lets me modify ACP modifiers that apply to armor, to my tower shield as well. It does NOT specify that you only apply the modifier provided by the armor training class feature. So by RAW the modifier from Armor Expert would be added to the Tower shield ACP as well.
There is another way to get around shield brace, if you take 2 feats in Spear Dancing Style and then also take Quarterstaff Master you can wield your chosen spear dancing polearm in one hand.
Pros: you can do this with the base Fighter class, dont have to give up any armor or weapon training goodies. also uses dex as a to-hit stat
Cons: suuuuuper feat intensive, requires weapon focus, weapon finesse, and two weapon fighting in addition to the 3 feats you actually want. You also lose the reach property of the polearm unless you take the 3rd feat in the chain. It also wont come online till around level 4 or 5 depending on what else you want to do. uses dex as your to-hit stat.
EDIT: Side note: does this line from Spear Dancing Spiral mean you can get dex-to-damage with the chosen polearm?
While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category.
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There is another way to get around shield brace, if you take 2 feats in Spear Dancing Style and then also take Quarterstaff Master you can wield your chosen spear dancing polearm in one hand.
Pros: you can do this with the base Fighter class, dont have to give up any armor or weapon training goodies. also uses dex as a to-hit stat
Cons: suuuuuper feat intensive, requires weapon focus, weapon finesse, and two weapon fighting in addition to the 3 feats you actually want. You also lose the reach property of the polearm unless you take the 3rd feat in the chain. It also wont come online till around level 4 or 5 depending on what else you want to do. uses dex as your to-hit stat.
EDIT: Side note: does this line from Spear Dancing Spiral mean you can get dex-to-damage with the chosen polearm?
While using Spear Dancing Style, you gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse with the chosen weapon if it is appropriately sized for a creature of your size category.
Thanks, I'll look into that and consider it, but that would then require even more feat investments to be able to also use dex for CMB. Certainly an option to consider.
Without looking into spear dancing style more, I have to say no, because spear dancing spiral is only giving weapon finesse (use dex for attack) to a weapon that otherwise can not use weapon finesse. This would have no benefit of dex to damage, unless spear dancing style lets you get dex to dmg if you have weapon finesse... then yes it might.
Are Spear Dancing Style/Spiral in Weapon Master's Handbook?
Yes, the Spear Dancing Chain is in the Weapon Master's Handbook
Without looking into spear dancing style more, I have to say no, because spear dancing spiral is only giving weapon finesse (use dex for attack) to a weapon that otherwise can not use weapon finesse. This would have no benefit of dex to damage, unless spear dancing style lets you get dex to dmg if you have weapon finesse... then yes it might.
Oh i know the style chain itself doesn't give you dex to damage, im wondering if the line would allow you to get it in some other way (like dipping levels in URogue or maybe an Agile Enchantment?)
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Yes, the Spear Dancing Chain is in the Weapon Master's Handbook
Without looking into spear dancing style more, I have to say no, because spear dancing spiral is only giving weapon finesse (use dex for attack) to a weapon that otherwise can not use weapon finesse. This would have no benefit of dex to damage, unless spear dancing style lets you get dex to dmg if you have weapon finesse... then yes it might.Oh i know the style chain itself doesn't give you dex to damage, im wondering if the line would allow you to get it in some other way (like dipping levels in URogue or maybe an Agile Enchantment?)
To my knowledge those can apply to any weapon you can use weapon finesse with. So yes that would work, just you wouldn't want to to gain the 3rd level rogue until you already had the weapon finesse for the weapon, since you have to choose from the list of weapons that you can use weapon finesse with at that time.
I personally have no plans of taking 3 level dip in rogue just for dex to dmg, and since this is for PFS I'm guessing the agile enchantment is not an option since it seems that's from AP#100 (at least according to D20PFSRD) and that's only got 1 page of legal items, and no mention of enchantments.
Pathfinder Adventure Path #100 "A Song of Silver"
Magic Items: The magic items on page 21 are legal for play.
So that does work? well that's pretty neat. URogue/Brawler Dual Wielding Sneak Attacking Flurrying dex-to-hit/dmg reach greatswords is possible then, all hail Weapon Versatility.
Also, if you can't make a Mithril Tower Shield, then you cannot create a Force Tower.
Those links don't prove that Force Tower is a unique exception to the general rule that Tower Shields aren't (typically) made out of Mithril, which is what those links would be required to state in order to convey the argument.
Regardless, my point still stands. If a player wants to craft a Force Tower, they need the ability to create a Mithril Tower Shield, otherwise they can't craft it, period. That argument extends well beyond players being able to make it, what if they want to purchase it from an NPC (who acquired it or crafted it himself)? After all, the NPCs requirements to craft it don't change simply because they're an NPC.
Except, you're suggesting that's exactly the case, which is complete bulls#!^ from a rules standpoint, and only table-specific from a GM balancing standpoint. Because the rules don't care whether it's a Wizard or a Warrior NPC with the Master Craftsman feat: If they don't have the components, then crafting the item is impossible, because they lack the components required, regardless of whether the components themselves are impossible (Mithril Tower Shield) to acquire/create or not.
Actually it does work if you can get Dex to damage with your spear dancing weapon with URogue or Agile.
Weapon Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) allows you to use heavy blades with Spear Dancing Style.
EDIT: No clue if Weapon Versatility is legal in PFS, I'm just speaking from a RAW perspective
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Regardless, my point still stands.
How about this.
Oak is 59 lb/ft^3.
Iron is 490 lb/ft^3.
If you just make a 45 lb Tower Shield from Iron, it would weight 490/59*45 = 373.7288135565 lb
Some how this Mithral Force Shield only weights 22 lb. It's magic.
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Actually it does work if you can get Dex to damage with your spear dancing weapon with URogue or Agile.
Weapon Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) allows you to use heavy blades with Spear Dancing Style.
EDIT: No clue if Weapon Versatility is legal in PFS, I'm just speaking from a RAW perspective
Often misunderstood, Nodachi, while a brace weapon, is not a reach weapon. Also I still don't see how the brawler gets to flurry with it..
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One feat that appears to be being over-looked here is Tower-Shield Specialist (req Fighter 8), -3 ACP from tower shield and apply any acp reduction to your shield:
Tower Shield ACP 10
Towershield Specialist (Feat) -3
Darkwood (Special Matierial) -2 (my interpretation is mithral is a no-go)
Armor Master or Sargavan Guard (Trait) -1
Armor Training + Sash of the War Champion (fighter level 8) -3
Improved Shield Focus (Feat) -1
Total ACP = 0
Reducing normal -2 to hit
Mobile Fortress (feat, mobile bulwark style) reduce to -1
Mobile Stronghold (feat) remove penalty (not PFS legal)
My PFS Shield Brace fighter is using a darkwood heavyshield until I get to Fighter 8 (level 9 for me as I took a Spiritualist level primarily for RP), then switch to using a Towershield. I'll have all of the above listed other than Mobile Stronghold due to not being PFS legal. So I will have a net -1 to hit while wielding my Towershield+Nodachi or Towershield+Lucerne Hammer.
You can see the current build here by clicking on the character.
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Often misunderstood, Nodachi, while a brace weapon, is not a reach weapon. Also I still don't see how the brawler gets to flurry with it..Actually it does work if you can get Dex to damage with your spear dancing weapon with URogue or Agile.
Weapon Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) allows you to use heavy blades with Spear Dancing Style.
EDIT: No clue if Weapon Versatility is legal in PFS, I'm just speaking from a RAW perspective
OH! I've been saying the wrong name, its not Weapon Versatility, its Martial Versatility
Nodachi belongs to both the polearms fighter weapon group and the heavy blades weapon group.
Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time it applies to a different feat.
Spear Dancing Style is just such a feat. Martial Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) you may now use Spear Dancing Style with any weapon in the polearm fighter weapon group or heavy blade fighter weapon group. (Greatswords are Heavy Blades)
From there its just the same things you can do with the style feat, only now you can use a lot more weapons with it.
Spear Dancing Style - choose a weapon and treat it as a double weapon, lose any reach or brace ability while using the style
Spear Dancing Spiral - apply weapon finesse to chosen weapon, treat chosen weapon as a quarterstaff for all feats and abilities
Spear Dancing Reach - Grant chosen weapon the reach special ability during full attacks as a swift action
Brawler's Flurry can be used with a quarterstaff, Spear Dancing Spiral allows you to treat the chosen weapon as a quarterstaff, therefore you can flurry with the chosen weapon.
The Quarterstaff Master Feat lets you use a quarterstaff in one hand, which means you can use your chosen spear dancing weapon in one hand, which means you can use two of them (not that you really need to thanks to the way brawler's flurry works).
Regardless, my point still stands.How about this.
Oak is 59 lb/ft^3.
Iron is 490 lb/ft^3.If you just make a 45 lb Tower Shield from Iron, it would weight 490/59*45 = 373.7288135565 lb
Some how this Mithral Force Shield only weights 22 lb. It's magic.
First off, that's a bunch of crap not founded anywhere in the rules. If it was, you'd note that steel and wooden shields in general, not just tower shields, should weigh more (or at the very least, different) than what they are listed in the book, and an errata of some sort would be required. The values are the way they are for ease of play in relation to mechanics; trying to circumvent that leads to madness, which is precisely what you're positing with those inane calculations.
Second off, Mithril reduces the weight of items you make it out of by 50%, or half. 22 is half (or 50%) of 45. Well, technically it's 22.5, but round down rules and all that fun stuff would apply, even for something as little as that.
Third off, based on the second point, if the Mithril property applies to the weight of the base item, then this means that if a Tower Shield is made of metal versus wood (which it would have to be if it were to be Mithril), its weight in comparison does not change.
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Often misunderstood, Nodachi, while a brace weapon, is not a reach weapon. Also I still don't see how the brawler gets to flurry with it..Actually it does work if you can get Dex to damage with your spear dancing weapon with URogue or Agile.
Weapon Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) allows you to use heavy blades with Spear Dancing Style.
EDIT: No clue if Weapon Versatility is legal in PFS, I'm just speaking from a RAW perspective
OH! I've been saying the wrong name, its not Weapon Versatility, its Martial Versatility
Nodachi belongs to both the polearms fighter weapon group and the heavy blades weapon group.
** spoiler omitted **
Spear Dancing Style is just such a feat. Martial Versatility(Spear Dancing Style(Nodachi)) you may now use Spear Dancing Style with any weapon in the polearm fighter weapon group or heavy blade fighter weapon group. (Greatswords are Heavy Blades)From there its just the same things you can do with the style feat, only now you can use a lot more weapons with it.
Spear Dancing Style - choose a weapon and treat it as a double weapon, lose any reach or brace ability while using the style
Spear Dancing Spiral - apply weapon finesse to chosen weapon, treat chosen weapon as a quarterstaff for all feats and abilities
Spear Dancing Reach - Grant chosen weapon the reach special ability during full attacks as a swift action
Brawler's Flurry can be used with a quarterstaff, Spear Dancing Spiral allows you to treat the chosen weapon as a quarterstaff, therefore you can flurry with the chosen weapon.
The Quarterstaff Master Feat lets you use a quarterstaff in one...
Yes there is some mad insanity in all that, and it does actually appear to work. However it does mean you only have reach with the weapons when performing a full attack, so reach would not be in play when you are not attacking so you don't threaten those extra squares, so you don't get AoO's ;-(
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One feat that appears to be being over-looked here is Tower-Shield Specialist (req Fighter 8), -3 ACP from tower shield and apply any acp reduction to your shield:
Tower Shield ACP 10
Towershield Specialist (Feat) -3
Darkwood (Special Matierial) -2 (my interpretation is mithral is a no-go)
Armor Master or Sargavan Guard (Trait) -1
Armor Training + Sash of the War Champion (fighter level 8) -3
Improved Shield Focus (Feat) -1
Total ACP = 0Reducing normal -2 to hit
Mobile Fortress (feat, mobile bulwark style) reduce to -1
Mobile Stronghold (feat) remove penalty (not PFS legal)My PFS Shield Brace fighter is using a darkwood heavyshield until I get to Fighter 8 (level 9 for me as I took a Spiritualist level primarily for RP), then switch to using a Towershield. I'll have all of the above listed other than Mobile Stronghold due to not being PFS legal. So I will have a net -1 to hit while wielding my Towershield+Nodachi or Towershield+Lucerne Hammer.
You can see the current build here by clicking on the character.
That was brought up and is the leading candidate for bringing everything together, currently I'm looking to either run the same way you are, heavy shield until I can get that feat, or just go with a normal weapon and tower shield forgoing the reach option.
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That was brought up and is the leading candidate for bringing everything together, currently I'm looking to either run the same way you are, heavy shield until I can get that feat, or just go with a normal weapon and tower shield forgoing the reach option.
Going Tower shield and normal one-hander works too; you could swap to Shield Brace later on instead of Shield Brace and heavy shield early
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Going Tower shield and normal one-hander works too; you could swap to Shield Brace later on instead of Shield Brace and heavy shield earlyThat was brought up and is the leading candidate for bringing everything together, currently I'm looking to either run the same way you are, heavy shield until I can get that feat, or just go with a normal weapon and tower shield forgoing the reach option.
Yes that is another option I'm considering, but that does give up Reach, which is one of the primary reasons why you generally want to go polearm/spear with shield brace.
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Does anyone have a solution to allow Weapon Finesse to be used with a Spear/Polearm without Spear Dancing Style & Spiral?
Three levels of phalanx soldier fighter and then dip swashbuckler for swashbucklers finesse. You'd lose access to deeds, and no dex to damage, but swashbucklers finesse actually doesn't care about what is in your off hand.
However, I question the wisdom of going dex primary when you are lugging a 22 pound heavy shield around.
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Does anyone have a solution to allow Weapon Finesse to be used with a Spear/Polearm without Spear Dancing Style & Spiral?Three levels of phalanx soldier fighter and then dip swashbuckler for swashbucklers finesse. You'd lose access to deeds, and no dex to damage, but swashbucklers finesse actually doesn't care about what is in your off hand.
However, I question the wisdom of going dex primary when you are lugging a 22 pound heavy shield around.
Thanks, but I'm already like 99% committed to Tower Shield Specialist Arch. Which lets me get abnormally high max dex options on both the armor and tower shield.
Necroing this thread a second :)
While I agree that RAW, you can't create a tower shield from metal, couldn't do you this:
Buy a Mitral Heavy Shield, enhance it to a +1 shield, and then add the Folding property and just turn it into a tower shield as a move action all the time?
Effectively, you are saying "If you want a mithral tower shield, you have to pay a +1 modifier tax"