I've been pondering a backstory for a new character and I find myself puzzling over a part of the idea. Let's say I make a vanilla fighter, could that fighter also be an ordained priest of, say, Sarenrae?
Is there a distinction in Golarion between a priest and a cleric? In a world where gods are empirically real, is it realistic that a character could be an official priest and not be given divine magic or is the divine magic the sign that a character is a real priest?
I've been pondering a backstory for a new character and I find myself puzzling over a part of the idea. Let's say I make a vanilla fighter, could that fighter also be an ordained priest of, say, Sarenrae?
Is there a distinction in Golarion between a priest and a cleric? In a world where gods are empirically real, is it realistic that a character could be an official priest and not be given divine magic or is the divine magic the sign that a character is a real priest?
Do you have a parish that you conduct services for? Then you're a priest. If you're going to pass yourself off as an actual healing cleric, then you have complications.
Do you have a parish that you conduct services for? Then you're a priest. If you're going to pass yourself off as an actual healing cleric, then you have complications.
This character would honest about his lack of magic. He would just run a small church because no one else was up to it but he wouldn't pretend to be something he isn't.
Just take a single point of Knowledge(religion), and you're good to go.
I've been pondering a backstory for a new character and I find myself puzzling over a part of the idea. Let's say I make a vanilla fighter, could that fighter also be an ordained priest of, say, Sarenrae?
Is there a distinction in Golarion between a priest and a cleric? In a world where gods are empirically real, is it realistic that a character could be an official priest and not be given divine magic or is the divine magic the sign that a character is a real priest?
Have you being ordained as a priest? Then you're a priest. It really is that simple.
A more interesting question is why your superiors would have ordained you, knowing that you don't have spell casting ability. Perhaps they don't have enough people who can cast spells, perhaps it was a political favor, or perhaps there is something going on that you don't even understand yourself.
But if you've been ordained, you're a priest.
Just take a single point of Knowledge(religion), and you're good to go.
Even that isn't necessary.
Do you have a parish that you conduct services for? Then you're a priest. If you're going to pass yourself off as an actual healing cleric, then you have complications.I've been pondering a backstory for a new character and I find myself puzzling over a part of the idea. Let's say I make a vanilla fighter, could that fighter also be an ordained priest of, say, Sarenrae?
Is there a distinction in Golarion between a priest and a cleric? In a world where gods are empirically real, is it realistic that a character could be an official priest and not be given divine magic or is the divine magic the sign that a character is a real priest?
Priest is a role not a class. In the church of Nethys for instance, wizards are more commonly found in that role, and hold higher status than clerics.
Fun fact: the character of John Robinson from Lost in Space was a minister. This was touched on in the original pilot, and in the comic book graphic series written by Billy Mummy.
The original deity write-ups in the early APs used to specify what classes priests of the deities tended to be. For instance, according to A Memory of Darkness,
Most of her [Calistria's] priests are clerics or bards, though in some places more exotic spellcasters are the norm for her clergy, and there are a few non-spellcasters who have reached moderate status in the priesthood.
I'm not sure if any of that carried over to the hardcover deity book(s) or not, but you didn't use to have be a cleric to be part of the priesthood in Golarion. (I would imagine a lot of low-level NPC temple staff are adepts, for example.)
EDIT: Just staying in Second Darkness, Cayden Cailean's priesthood is said to include druids, bards, and adepts.
Just take a single point of Knowledge(religion), and you're good to go.Even that isn't necessary.
It helps if you actually want to be a priest instead of some ignoramus calling themselves one. You're a pretty poor excuse for a pries if you're ignorant of even the basic tenets and rituals of your faith.
The OP specified a character that was actually a functional priest, not a bunco artist pretending to be one.
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You're good. Anyone can share the glory of Razm--Saranrae.
If your game uses background skills, you could easily have your character max Profession (Priest) & Lore (Sarenrae) to provide mechanical backing for the idea.
A more interesting question is why your superiors would have ordained you, knowing that you don't have spell casting ability. Perhaps they don't have enough people who can cast spells, perhaps it was a political favor, or perhaps there is something going on that you don't even understand yourself.
I hadn't gotten that far into the character idea but that would be the next important question to flesh out the character.
Just take a single point of Knowledge(religion), and you're good to go.Even that isn't necessary.It helps if you actually want to be a priest instead of some ignoramus calling themselves one. You're a pretty poor excuse for a pries if you're ignorant of even the basic tenets and rituals of your faith.
The OP specified a character that was actually a functional priest, not a bunco artist pretending to be one.
Yeah, I'd definetly put points into knowledge and profession for this idea.
If your game uses background skills, you could easily have your character max Profession (Priest) & Lore (Sarenrae) to provide mechanical backing for the idea.
I just looked up the background skills system and that sounds cool. I'll bring that up with the GM.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I should be able to put together a more interesting character with this help.
For what it's worth, in the 3PP Way of the Wicked adventure path, it is explicit that most clergy of the dominant religion are not spellcasting clerics; most of them are simply younger sons of nobility (following the medieval European tradition of Eldest gets the land, Second becomes a priest, Third joins the army, Fourth and subsequent starve).
There is actually a specific ordeal that some priests go through, and if they are successful, they may be granted spellcasting abilities (and become a full-fledged "cleric"). Usually the spellcasting priests have a leg up on their competition in promotion to higher ranks like bishop, but even there, noble blood plays as much or an even greater role.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to Golarion, but (as pointed out), clergy of many different deities are listed as not necessarily being clerics in the various splatbooks.
The original deity write-ups in the early APs used to specify what classes priests of the deities tended to be. For instance, according to A Memory of Darkness,Most of her [Calistria's] priests are clerics or bards, though in some places more exotic spellcasters are the norm for her clergy, and there are a few non-spellcasters who have reached moderate status in the priesthood.I'm not sure if any of that carried over to the hardcover deity book(s) or not, but you didn't use to have be a cleric to be part of the priesthood in Golarion. (I would imagine a lot of low-level NPC temple staff are adepts, for example.)
EDIT: Just staying in Second Darkness, Cayden Cailean's priesthood is said to include druids, bards, and adepts.
In Inner Sea Gods, it depends on the deity. For instance, you have Iomedae's section that has "All of Iomedae’s priests are clerics or paladins," but you also have Calistria's which doesn't mention classes at all. Some assume, or say, clerics to be the predominant members of the clergy, others specify the common classes, others don't.
In Inner Sea Gods, it depends on the deity. For instance, you have Iomedae's section that has "All of Iomedae’s priests are clerics or paladins," but you also have Calistria's which doesn't mention classes at all. Some assume, or say, clerics to be the predominant members of the clergy, others specify the common classes, others don't.
Oh cool. Someone trying to be a legitimate priest would probably know those things so I'll make sure to check that section.
In Inner Sea Gods, it depends on the deity. For instance, you have Iomedae's section that has "All of Iomedae’s priests are clerics or paladins," but you also have Calistria's which doesn't mention classes at all. Some assume, or say, clerics to be the predominant members of the clergy, others specify the common classes, others don't.Oh cool. Someone trying to be a legitimate priest would probably know those things so I'll make sure to check that section.
I'd recommend looking in the 'A Priest's Role' section and the 'Adventurers' section. And even if the typical priest is something specific, that doesn't necessarily preclude a PC from being one. And if nothing else, you can always preach.
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You can be a priest, but if you are not a cleric (or at least a bard or something with some cure spells), then I would imagine that of the backwoods villagers might think you are an idiot or something.
Not that you can't be a priest without being a cleric... but for small towns, they look at things practically. And I would imagine they often have little need for a priest that can't cast cure light wounds.
I think there is a reason why clerics are usually the ones acting as the face of the faith. Even a simple cure light wounds can take little Timmy from 'dying' to 'just walk it off' (ie- a level 1 villager likely gets brought up to near full from just a CLW spell). Even evil clerics can at least prepare a CLW spell using slots. So having such a large, practical display of your god's power fills in the 'what is in it for me?' part of any speech.
Larger churches in cities likely have more room and need for personnel that could not be covered by casters alone. But for small villages? They are likely more eager to get a healer than someone to nag them, so you would be more likely to see small churches with just the one cleric working there.
All this discussion is simply a bit of potential world building you can use.
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NPC: Look! A priest! We're all saved from the plague!
PC: Oh... Sorry just a fighter. I just preach the glory of Saranrae.
*Blank Stares*
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PC: ... I could try making heal checks, I guess?
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It depends on how the role of priest is defined. There is no clear cut answer because this can vary with each religion. Some religions will have multiple different titles for members of the faith. Other may have a looser structure with few defined roles. The lawful religions will probably have different titles and strict requirements for each title. A Chaotic religion will have few if any titles and very loose requirements for the titles.
Historically a priest was someone ordained to administer the sacraments. You also had other religious ranks like monk, religious knights, lay brother, nuns, and a lot more. It stands to reason that any fantasy religion will have similar roles and titles.
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You can be a priest, but if you are not a cleric (or at least a bard or something with some cure spells), then I would imagine that of the backwoods villagers might think you are an idiot or something.
Not that you can't be a priest without being a cleric... but for small towns, they look at things practically. And I would imagine they often have little need for a priest that can't cast cure light wounds.
Unless of course they're being adequately served by Wilma the Hedge Witch with a healing Patron or Andy the Alchemist who's been the local apothecary for time on end, in which case the expected role of the priest is spiritual leadership and conflict resolution.
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Yeah, I mean as an example, this character is a priestess of Calistria. Class wise she's a Magus with a whip, so not what you'd traditionally think of as being a priestess, but... Calistria, whip magus, yeah. It's just a Profession (Courtesan) day job roll, but I totally went there. :D
You just have to make your character religious enough and somewhat fitting with the portfolio of your deity is the way I see it. So, like a witch being a priestess of Kostchtchie would be like um wtf no what are you smoking... quit it's bad for you, mkay? But a dominatrix styled whip magus who is a priestess of the goddess of sex and her favored weapon is a whip? Yep. :P
In fact, if you're playing a fighter who worships Sarenrae and is a priest, why not go all out for Sarenrae and be a Dawnflower Dervish (Link is to d20pfsrd's renamed and serial numbers filed off version, Dervish of Dawn, since Nethys doesn't have the Dawnflower Dervish, as old as it is. The source is the Inner Sea Primer)?
Minor Miracle, Believers Boon and Believers Hands could also help with the priestly nature without adding (true) casting.
I would say a Priest depends on the deity. Nethys for instance would scoff at a Fighter being a priest (unless they had some spellcasting potential).
Minor Miracle, Believers Boon and Believers Hands could also help with the priestly nature without adding (true) casting.
I would say a Priest depends on the deity. Nethys for instance would scoff at a Fighter being a priest (unless they had some spellcasting potential).
As I've noted before, In the Church of Nethys, single class wizards hold higher standing than actual clerics of Nethys.
As mentioned before, look over Inner Sea Gods. It's an amazing fluff book, and it even offers a few items, spells, and traits that can help you flesh out your priest's mechanics.
I would strongly advise against the Core Fighter, if only because their extremely limited pool of skill points really undercuts the idea of making a character who is both knowledgeable to the level of functional competence and trained in the diety's related services at a professional level. Playing as a Human can offset this by a bit, and the Lore Warden archetype gets you to a respectable 4+Int skill point total.
^Advanced Armor Training (Adaptable Training) and especially Advanced Weapon Training (Versatile Training) will also help with your skill ranks per level, although you can't get these until 3rd and 5th level, respectively, and the mechanic is a kludgy fix for something that should have just been amended from the ground up (and they both work on a non-archetyped Fighter, but not a Core-Only Fighter, since these are from the Armor Master's Handbook and the Weapon Master's Handbook, respectively). In both cases these free up 1 or 2 skill points per level, which you can immediately use for other purposes, including Knowledge (Religion).
As I've noted before, In the Church of Nethys, single class wizards hold higher standing than actual clerics of Nethys.Minor Miracle, Believers Boon and Believers Hands could also help with the priestly nature without adding (true) casting.
I would say a Priest depends on the deity. Nethys for instance would scoff at a Fighter being a priest (unless they had some spellcasting potential).
And I am sure that there are plenty of pure warriors in the church of gorum, and a lot of druids in high positions among the faithful of Gozreh.
But outside of those with such a specific focus, the general principle is that clerics have a higher standing in most churches, I would assume.
IMO:
Priest: Cleric :: Soldier : Fighter.
If you think of a church or an army as an institution, it becomes clear that they need all sorts of people in their organization to do a wide variety of necessary tasks. You do not need magical powers or exceptional combat ability in order to perform marriages, do accounting and inventory, dig latrines, etc.
Particularly appropriate for an adventurer would be to be the priest of a church who travels to villages that aren't large enough to support a parish, in order to perform rituals like weddings, funerals, baptisms etc. No one ever needed magical powers to get married or buried, after all.
IMO:
Priest: Cleric :: Soldier : Fighter.
If you think of a church or an army as an institution, it becomes clear that they need all sorts of people in their organization to do a wide variety of necessary tasks. You do not need magical powers or exceptional combat ability in order to perform marriages, do accounting and inventory, dig latrines, etc.
Particularly appropriate for an adventurer would be to be the priest of a church who travels to villages that aren't large enough to support a parish, in order to perform rituals like weddings, funerals, baptisms etc. No one ever needed magical powers to get married or buried, after all.
As I've noted before, In the Church of Nethys, single class wizards hold higher standing than actual clerics of Nethys.Minor Miracle, Believers Boon and Believers Hands could also help with the priestly nature without adding (true) casting.
I would say a Priest depends on the deity. Nethys for instance would scoff at a Fighter being a priest (unless they had some spellcasting potential).
And I am sure that there are plenty of pure warriors in the church of gorum, and a lot of druids in high positions among the faithful of Gozreh.
But outside of those with such a specific focus, the general principle is that clerics have a higher standing in most churches, I would assume.
The OP has been rather vague on whether he's actually planning on doing anything other than introducing himself as Hi, I'm Joe Priest of Whatever. I wouldn't assume that he needs anything at this point, until he gets more specific on how far he wants to push this.
Are you, perhaps, referring to lay priests? They were a thing, back in the day.
As I've noted before, In the Church of Nethys, single class wizards hold higher standing than actual clerics of Nethys.Minor Miracle, Believers Boon and Believers Hands could also help with the priestly nature without adding (true) casting.
I would say a Priest depends on the deity. Nethys for instance would scoff at a Fighter being a priest (unless they had some spellcasting potential).
And I am sure that there are plenty of pure warriors in the church of gorum, and a lot of druids in high positions among the faithful of Gozreh.
But outside of those with such a specific focus, the general principle is that clerics have a higher standing in most churches, I would assume.
Meh. If you really want higher standing, aristocrat trumps all..
His Grace, the Bishop of Loamshire, would appoint a priest to the parish of Small Willy. Will the candidates please make themselves known?
Hi, I'm Huey, a fighter. I hit things.
Hi, I'm Dewey,a cleric. I cast spells.
Hi, I'm Lord Louie,second son of the Duke of Loamshire, who owns all the land Your Grace can see from the top of the bell tower.
Who do you think is the next Vicar of Small Willy?
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Are you, perhaps, referring to lay priests? They were a thing, back in the day.
I see it more as nonseminarian priests. Which not only were but still are a thing.
Actually, they do.
I'm pretty sure you can get married without that spell; you just need to do without the +1 bonus to saves against fear (so be sure it's a good idea before you start.)
I mean, it's reasonable that civilian authorities and ship captains are allowed to perform marriages at least somewhere in the game world, and those people most likely can't cast any spells at all.
His Grace, the Bishop of Loamshire, would appoint a priest to the parish of Small Willy. Will the candidates please make themselves known?
Hi, I'm Huey, a fighter. I hit things.
Hi, I'm Dewey,a cleric. I cast spells.
Hi, I'm Lord Louie,second son of the Duke of Loamshire, who owns all the land Your Grace can see from the top of the bell tower.
Who do you think is the next Vicar of Small Willy?
It depends on whether the church likes Duke Scrooge of Loamshire.
While things might be more flexible in an obviously polytheistic world ("the church is getting uppity? Then start supporting the other church!"), the clergy of europe were often a competing nobility seeking power and lands.
Making Lord Louie into the Vicar could place a lot of land under the control of the Loamshire family, which could be used to tip the scales of the kingdom's power. Which may be bad news for other factions in the church.
As such, they might even be willing to make Donald, the irate, drunken commoner sailor into the Vicar instead if they can make a good excuse. They would settle for someone of poor qualifications as long as they made a good puppet.
By saying 'we only accept clerics', they might have a good excuse. And clerics need a lot of training to be able to channel their gods power. Training which could allow them to indoctrinate the person into their side.
So they may accept Lord Louie, but only if they get him young and raise him for a decade outside of the Duke's influence.
Actually, they do.I'm pretty sure you can get married without that spell; you just need to do without the +1 bonus to saves against fear (so be sure it's a good idea before you start.)
I mean, it's reasonable that civilian authorities and ship captains are allowed to perform marriages at least somewhere in the game world, and those people most likely can't cast any spells at all.
Ceremony should really be an Occult Ritual (although with potential to be less spooky than average for these), thus allowing non-spellcasting Priests to use it. Occult Rituals weren't around yet when Quests & Campaigns came out.