Rogue Scout Archetype Clarification


Rules Questions


So, when I made my character way back when, we were all new to the game and didn't really know how anything worked. So, imagine my excitement when I read you the Scout Archetype for Rogue. It was exactly the kinda build I wanted to do, whipping around the battle field shooting from afar and then charging in and repeat.

But now that I'm more used to the rules, I've realized that I've kinda wrecked myself because of wording. For example, the Skirmisher ability:

Quote:

Skirmisher (Ex)

At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

I just want to make sure I'm interpreting this correctly: because it says "makes an attack action" that means I can't pair this ability up with Spring Attack or Shot on the Run because they're full round actions. And because they're full round actions, I can't pair Shot on the Run with things like Rapid Shot and Manyshot because they only trigger as part of full attack actions. So, now I'm worried I've crippled myself for future growth because if I want to take advantage of this archetype, I can never make a full attack.


Well... you typically wouldn't be able to move 10 feet and also make a full attack anyhow, as far as full attacks go. Skirmisher is there so that you don't have to charge to get a free Sneak Attack.

If you're trying to make single Sneak Attack shots at targets, there's always the sniping rules with stealth. If you want to pull hit-and-run guaranteed Sneak Attacks with a melee weapon, there's Disengaging Shot I suppose. Rather feat-intensive, but it's not bad for a Rogue to grab a couple levels of Fighter (or ideally 3 levels of Weapon Master) anyhow.


Spring attack is no go, it's not an attack action in there.


BadBird wrote:
Well... you typically wouldn't be able to move 10 feet and also make a full attack anyhow, as far as full attacks go. Skirmisher is there so that you don't have to charge to get a free Sneak Attack.

Yeah, my initial plan for my character:

Shot on the Run + Skirmisher to open my attack paired with Rapid Shot (an extra attack) and Manyshot (an extra damage dice) to offset losing a multiple attacks from BAB in exchange for the single attack Shot on the Run offers. So, I'd move 10 feet to get an angle, shoot, reposition with my remaining move to a good charge spot. Benefiting from Opening Volley and Jaguar Pounce, I'd charge in with a +6 bonus to attack and deal sneak damage and a higher critical threat. Once in melee range, use Spring Attack to pester the enemies with attacks and eventually Spring-Heeled Style's multiple attacks.

That was before I realized the difference in language between full round action, full attack action and attack action. I thought any time you made an attack, it was an attack action and not a specific classification of action. So, my entire build has just sort of crumbled because practically none of that works, haha.

I guess my next route of attack is to pump up Vital Strike to offset losing my extra attacks by tossing in extra damage die?


I suppose. I mean, ranged attacking Rogue... not even really sure where to go. If you've already got a bunch of archery stuff, then you're probably better off just unloading with a bow than going for a single shot sneak attack. Unless you've got terrible damage without sneak attack...


Honestly, because you are a rogue, speak to your GM. You probably won't be out damaging the barbarian (if you have 1) even if you do slightly misinterpret the rules.

It is a really cool combat style, that isn't overpowered so ask your GM to help you make it work

Liberty's Edge

Why charge into melee at all? Just use the scout archetype with the sniper archetype. Move 30 ft shoot a sneak attack. Move 30 ft shoot another sneak attack. That of course is by lvl 8 which nets you a 4d6 + weapon damage. At lvl 20 it is 10d6 which is kinda like fireball damage on a single target, except you never run out of spells. You get some of those cool rogue tricks that debilitate target upon sneak attack and now you can really hamper them.

Get shot on the run and you can move out of total cover and back into total cover so even if enemy is ranged they would have to move towards you.

Now go back to rogue trick, I think there was one that hampered movement, now take boots of striding and jumping, and a couple of those feats that give you extra movement.

Yup... Almost untouchable.

The build has its weaknesses but hella fun and frustrating for baddies.


Yure wrote:
At lvl 20 it is 10d6 which is kinda like fireball damage on a single target, except you never run out of spells.

At level 20, 10d6 damage isn't very much.

Liberty's Edge

Perhaps, I would think that 10d6 per round puts the rogue on par with other classes.


That's 35 damage on average - not much to the ancient red dragons you're likely to be fighting at that level. A level 20 martial character full-attacking (with archery or whatever) would probably be doing at least 200 damage a round.


Yure wrote:
Perhaps, I would think that 10d6 per round puts the rogue on par with other classes.

If it was 10d6 on 4 or 5 attacks each, then you'd be in the right ballpark.

Remember, Inquisitor's get grater bane. With archery, they can have 6 attacks with bane in a round. That's 24d6 just from bane. That's not including strength bonus to damage, weapon damage, judgments, or any other various buffs.

10d6 at level 20 is "you might as well sit this out chief".


I made a thrower Scout Rogue to combine Startoss Style and Sneak Attack.

Then, of course, I learned that sneak attack still only applies to your first target. Which really peeved me off since I thought I had found a way around Sneak attack being rubbish.


Claxon wrote:
Yure wrote:
Perhaps, I would think that 10d6 per round puts the rogue on par with other classes.

If it was 10d6 on 4 or 5 attacks each, then you'd be in the right ballpark.

Remember, Inquisitor's get grater bane. With archery, they can have 6 attacks with bane in a round. That's 24d6 just from bane. That's not including strength bonus to damage, weapon damage, judgments, or any other various buffs.

10d6 at level 20 is "you might as well sit this out chief".

Hell, a straight fighter geared towards archery (or really anything, honestly) at level 20 probably has at or close to a +35 to damage just from static bonuses on every attack (likely more). Just off the top of my head (Weapon Training & Gloves, STR, Enhancement, Weapon Spec. & Greater, and Deadly Aim) I'm at +34 and I haven't even tried optimizing yet. Plus, the fighter is auto-confirming crits at x4 damage with all the bonuses from crit feats stacked on there.

And fighters aren't even close to the best archer builds.

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