| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've never understood why DMs will give items to a group to help them deal with an oncoming challenge but then
1) make it an item that none of the characters would want to use
2) not make it clear the item is important
1)Oh you need a vampire slaying weapon? Or take this side quest
The great sword fighter, the archer ranger, the wizard and the Druid take the quest and receive a vampire bane short sword ... oh wonderful who wants to take the nerf to literally every single situation but the vampire bit of the future campaign? Would it really have ruined the verisimilitude for it to be a great sword? I think not.
2) You come across an over turned carriage sorrounded by rabid beasts, party slays the beast you find 200 gold, some gems and a vampire bane longbow. 2 sessions later party is wiped by vampires. Well why didn't you keep that longbow that took up a huge chunk of your WBL that you had no way of knowing you needed?
EDIT: to be clear I've never had this happen to me (no bitterness here) but I've heard about it happen to other people. My DM actually set up a side quest for a weapon we needed that the party would actually want to use.
They do require access to a laboratory and/or workshop after all. Not very practical when sleeping rough in a dungeon. I would discuss with my player in advance whether using crafting feats was going to be practical for them.The magic item creation rules say nothing of the sort (and in fact say the opposite), though you're free to make up house rules to crush your players for daring to attempt to take agency away from the almighty God-GM. Remember, players are subhumans who exist purely for your amusement, and any delusions of equality must be swiftly and brutally crushed.
To go to what the rules actually say:
"The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items."
"If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night."
"Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster)."
Yes that it true in terms of the amount of time available. No doubt a wizard could scribe scrolls or even brew potions in an inn room or while camping outside (though whether that would count as well lit and comfortable is going to vary).
However you're ignoring the rules in the item creation feat section itself
Using an item creation feat also requires access to a laboratory or magical workshop, special tools, and so on. A character usually has access to what he needs unless unusual circumstance apply."
Being on level 2 of Rappun Athak definitely counts as unusual circumstances for me. I have no doubt a crafter could gain access to a forge when in village of any reasonable size, but not in the middle of a wilderness.
Now of course DMs can house rule that the crafter can just wave their hands over raw materials to simplify the process. Though then you would be ignoring the quote I gave saying it requires the laboratory or workshop. I don't allow rings, weapons, armour, most wondrous items, rods, and staves to be made on the dungeon floor. Potions, scrolls and perhaps wands are fine along with some wondrous items.
The second thing i don't assume is that crafting materials can be used to craft all items. You can't just convert gp into 'crafting materials' and then decide what you want to make later. This wouldn't work for any other form of crafting. So why should casters be given an easy time. This stuff can't all be made up on the fly while in the woods.
Yes at 9th level teleport means easy access to markets (for wizards) but if the wizard teleports to Magnimar and back to do his shopping he's used his 5th level spells up for the day and isn't present when the party gets ambushed. That's even if the rest of the party is willing to hang around for a day while the wizard decides to abandon them mid adventure.
Yes if you have decided what to make before you set out you could complete the enchanting part once you have a semi-finished article while you are on the trail. However this is all very different to the full and free access to crafting some posters seem to argue it is.
They are just some thoughts for DMs struggling with players taking advantage of the crafting rules. Generally our adventures are plot driven with time being an issue. There is some time for crafting but almost never mid adventure.
"Golarion isn't Pathfinder."
It's pretty refreshing to see that some people are entirely aware of this. Pathfinder is just a set of rules so you can create your own world and setting, and that it's not a setting at all. It obviously has them, like how 3.5 has Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, but people often refer to Pathfinder as a setting itself. Pathfinder is just another means of letting people play in your fantasy world.
True Golarion technically isn't pathfinder, but how many non-3rd party sources can you name? What setting is used in all of the APs and campaign books? Golarion is Pathfinder in the sense that it is too date the main setting, and the one with the most focus.
In the second case you're screwed, unless you meta-game correctly. Cause it's likely to happen more than once - at least finding items potentially useful against specific threats. How do you know which ones are GM hints that you'll need this and which ones are just random loot? Either you wind up far behind WBL because you're lugging around a bunch of possibly useful stuff or you sell it and don't have it when you need it.
This +1. The reason a lot of this stuff is sold is because the random tables have a tendency to drop a lot of useless items on the group. Doesn't help that some slots have one choice you will always choose if everybody else chooses it. Cloak of Resistance for Shoulders, Stat boosters for the Belt and Headband slots, Ring of Protection/Amulet of Natural Armor/Bracers of Armor.
I've never understood why DMs will give items to a group to help them deal with an oncoming challenge but then
1) not make it clear the item is important
2) make it an item that none of the characters would want to use1)Oh you need a vampire slaying weapon? Or take this side quest
The great sword fighter, the archer ranger, the wizard and the Druid take the quest and receive a vampire bane short sword ... oh wonderful who wants to take the nerf to literally every single situation but the vampire bit of the future campaign? Would it really have ruined the verisimilitude for it to be a great sword? I think not.2) You come across an over turned carriage sorrounded by rabid beasts, party slays the beast you find 200 gold, some gems and a vampire bane longbow. 2 sessions later party is wiped by vampires. Well why didn't you keep that longbow that took up a huge chunk of your WBL that you had no way of knowing you needed?
EDIT: to be clear I've never had this happen to me (no bitterness here) but I've heard about it happen to other people. My DM actually set up a side quest for a weapon we needed that the party would actually want to use.
At least in the first case, you know you're looking for an anti-vampire weapon and you can put it aside and haul it out when you face the actual vampire. It's not that much of a hit to the party's WBL not to sell it off and when you do track down the vampire it'll still be worth it, even if not as impressive as if it was your favored weapon.
In the second case you're screwed, unless you meta-game correctly. Cause it's likely to happen more than once - at least finding items potentially useful against specific threats. How do you know which ones are GM hints that you'll need this and which ones are just random loot? Either you wind up far behind WBL because you're lugging around a bunch of possibly useful stuff or you sell it and don't have it when you need it.
Edit: hit enter before typing lol
Depends entirely on your level, we were level 5 and the weapon we was worth 10,000 it was a +1 Bane weapon with an effect that meant it cast light near the blood of things it had Bane against. Which the DM ruled made it worth 10,000. We had just reached level 5 so it was a vast chunk of wealth by level good job we knew we'd need it.
Yeah super screwed.
He over valued that light effect. Magic sword glow like light naturally most of time.
He over valued that light effect. Magic sword glow like light naturally most of time.
The value of the glow was that it was specifically Bane against the shapechanger sub type so it only glowed near a shape changed creature, we were hunting Dopplegangers.
Precisely! I called it sting immediately and the DM promptly face palmed as he had not made said connection lol
Woot!
The biggest mistake Paizo made was trying to give players full control over magic items.
Why blame Paizo? That's a function of 3.0.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Woot!
The biggest mistake Paizo made was trying to give players full control over magic items.
Yes, because when feats and class abilities often times make you better with one speicific weapon or weapon group, or school of spells, or skill, etc., nothing feels better than some random table giving you magic items that you not want at all. If I get an extra +3 to-hit and damage with a let's say a Halberd, I'm not goign to be happy if all the magic weapons I end up getting are Longswords, Greataxes, Falchions and so on, because I built my character to use a hlaberd best, for mechanical/themeatical purposes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?
For one, your comment about the strength of the wielder is not necessarily true. A level 1 warrior can wield a +10 martial weapon with zero problems unless they have an incompatible alignment with an alignment component of the weapon's enchantments.
Yes, and he MIGHT get one hit with it on the level 18 fighter he somehow managed to steal it from. The level 18 fighter will then pick up a chair and despite having no training with improvised weapons will obliterate him in a round and then recover his sword from the level 1's corpse.
For one, your comment about the strength of the wielder is not necessarily true. A level 1 warrior can wield a +10 martial weapon with zero problems unless they have an incompatible alignment with an alignment component of the weapon's enchantments.Yes, and he MIGHT get one hit with it on the level 18 fighter he somehow managed to steal it from. The level 18 fighter will then pick up a chair and despite having no training with improvised weapons will obliterate him in a round and then recover his sword from the level 1's corpse.
I dunno if the +11 gives much hope of hitting the 40+ ac level 18 fighter tbqh
I dunno if the +11 gives much hope of hitting the 40+ ac level 18 fighter tbqhFor one, your comment about the strength of the wielder is not necessarily true. A level 1 warrior can wield a +10 martial weapon with zero problems unless they have an incompatible alignment with an alignment component of the weapon's enchantments.Yes, and he MIGHT get one hit with it on the level 18 fighter he somehow managed to steal it from. The level 18 fighter will then pick up a chair and despite having no training with improvised weapons will obliterate him in a round and then recover his sword from the level 1's corpse.
Any newb can get lucky and roll a nat 20. hence the "might get one hit".
I dunno if the +11 gives much hope of hitting the 40+ ac level 18 fighter tbqhFor one, your comment about the strength of the wielder is not necessarily true. A level 1 warrior can wield a +10 martial weapon with zero problems unless they have an incompatible alignment with an alignment component of the weapon's enchantments.Yes, and he MIGHT get one hit with it on the level 18 fighter he somehow managed to steal it from. The level 18 fighter will then pick up a chair and despite having no training with improvised weapons will obliterate him in a round and then recover his sword from the level 1's corpse.
What if it is a Brilliant +11 Glaive? Lowers that AC to close to 10.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?
Then the DM can roll for plot, NPCs, monsters, treasure, and geography. Nothing will make sense in an almost beautiful way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?Then the DM can roll for plot, NPCs, monsters, treasure, and geography. Nothing will make sense in an almost beautiful way.
Why stop there? The GM should also roll to see what dice he uses to roll all the other things that he needs to roll.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why stop there? The GM should also roll to see what dice he uses to roll all the other things that he needs to roll.Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?Then the DM can roll for plot, NPCs, monsters, treasure, and geography. Nothing will make sense in an almost beautiful way.
At the start of every session there is a roll off to determine who will win the campaign.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At the start of every session there is a roll off to determine who will win the campaign.Why stop there? The GM should also roll to see what dice he uses to roll all the other things that he needs to roll.Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?Then the DM can roll for plot, NPCs, monsters, treasure, and geography. Nothing will make sense in an almost beautiful way.
THAT AM DUMB AND UNNECESSARY.
BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER. DUH.
Just out of interest, who advocated rolling randomly for magic items. Has anyone been in a campaign where magic items were randomised?
Magic and teams should always suit the party, even if you're running an adventure path you change the loot to fit the people sitting in front of you. Or do you just give them treasure they don't need so they can sell it?
Just out of interest, who advocated rolling randomly for magic items.
The game advocates it. That's why there are the random magic item tables.
Well it doesn't advocate it. They're there for when the DM hasn't got time or doesn't care.
Considering how important they are I'm surprised people would just roll.
Just out of interest, who advocated rolling randomly for magic items.Gygax
Has anyone been in a campaign where magic items were randomised?Yes
Oddly enough though, in the modules he wrote, magic items were placed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not take the principle to its logical conclusion and have players roll stats in order, roll class and archetype, and roll race too?Then the DM can roll for plot, NPCs, monsters, treasure, and geography. Nothing will make sense in an almost beautiful way.
Entire stories are procedurally generated now. See: Hollywood.
Well it doesn't advocate it. They're there for when the DM hasn't got time or doesn't care.
Considering how important they are I'm surprised people would just roll.
I've seen people argue in all apparent seriousness that letting people assign their stats (rather than rolling 3d6 in order) is when RPGs went downhill and their soul was lost forever to powergaming "builds**t cancer". Yes, that is a direct quote from a proud old-school DM.
Just out of interest, who advocated rolling randomly for magic items.Gygax
Has anyone been in a campaign where magic items were randomised?Yes
+1 to both counts
Oddly enough though, in the modules he wrote, magic items were placed.
You sure? I never had any data one way or the other.
Just out of interest, who advocated rolling randomly for magic items. Has anyone been in a campaign where magic items were randomised?
Magic and teams should always suit the party, even if you're running an adventure path you change the loot to fit the people sitting in front of you. Or do you just give them treasure they don't need so they can sell it?
I give them treasure they may or may not need, to see what they do with it.
Sometimes they just sell it, sometimes they use it a lot more than I thought they would, sometimes they carry it around just in case (as a backup weapon or something), and sometimes they get really creative. Part of the fun of GMing is seeing what the party does.
If I do have a character really devoted to a single type of weapon, I'll make sure to throw them an upgrade every so often, but it isn't going to necessarily be right away. Unless they get lucky when random loot gets generated, that is. I do rule that Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization applies to weapon groups though, to give players a *little* bit more leeway to experiment with items.
I'm playing a Bow Hunter in a game, and got thrown an enchanted longsword made of a special material. Of all the characters in the party, I'm the person who can use the sword best, even if it's as a backup weapon. It's actually opened up a new aspect to the character- he's clearly an archer, but an archer with a particularly powerful sword. Turning him into something of a Switch-hitter. It's neat, but something I hadn't set out to do when I made the character. And as both a player and a GM I love when that happens.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Skull and Shackles, for example, and then run the first third or so of Maiden, Mother, Crone as a standalone set of adventures.
I rewrote Skull & Shackles as a 1st to 10th level campaign, using supplemental material in between modules. It actually works a lot better that way, so that the random mooks on guard duty in the kitchen aren't powerful enough to conquer whole kingdoms anymore. Also, by the time you hit 11th level, the druid is riding a roc and the wizard can teleport and the cleric can plane shift, so pirate fleets aren't actually relevant anymore.