So I'm building a Strength Based HALF-ORC INVESTIGATOR (EMPIRICIST).
TL/DR What class would you suggest for a 1-level dip for a STR-based Investigator?
Approx stats (20 pt buy):
STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 12
CHA: 07
The first few levels (before they get Studied Combat) are kinda tough for investigators, so I thought I'd take a Martial dip at level 1.
Requirements for dip:
+1BAB (allows me to take POWER ATTACK at level 1)
Martial Weapon Proficiency (I'm trading out Weapon Familiarity for the Overlooked Mastermind Alternate Racial Trait).
Medium Armour Proficiency (that light armour just won't cut it with my massive 12 DEX).
My original idea was to go BARBARIAN. This gets me my "requirements" as well as Fast Movement (I'll buy an Adamantine Breastplate & get DR: 2/- while still keeping a move speed of 30) and 6 rounds/day of rage. At low level the rage will keep me more competetive and at high levels it's basically 6 rounds of backup Mutagen in a fight where I didn't have time to buff.
I saw some people posting (on some forum, I forget where) about dipping FREEBOOTER RANGER for that party buff, so I thought I'd look around and see what I could find.
FIGHTER is obviously a solid choice. Since my level 1 feat is going to be Power Attack I can feasibly use the fighter feat for that and instead take any feat I like at level 1, so this has potential if I can think of something good.
FREESTYLE FIGHTER could be really useful, MARTIAL FLEXIBILITY is really good, and even with a 1 level dip I get 4 uses per day (1 minute each).
My currant thought is to start out as a Barbarian & retrain to Freestyle Fighter somewhere around level 6 (to represent my character losing his ferocious side & instead really investing in his mind-over-matter mentality).
Anyone have any other thoughts? What other classes would work well as a 1-level dip?
If I were to go Fighter what Feat would people recommend at level 1?
If I were to go Freestyle Figher what Feats would people suggest (Thinking things like COMBAT EXPERTISE or DIRTY FIGHTING which are a prerequisite for a lot of feats)?
Even if it's something I don't really like for this character, I'd be interested to see what people think here. Your theory-crafting could lead to another interesting character later down the track!
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For my own strength-based empiricist I never dipped. I use the longspear, took Combat Reflexes at level 1. Got me SO MANY AoOs. Especially enemies trying to close in at round 1 of the combat. Then I took Power Attack at level 3.
At level 1 you don't need PA with the longspear, you're doing quite a lot of damage already, and if needed you can go big with Enlarge Person. You do want a Dex of 14+ so that Combat Reflexes keeps working while enlarged.
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Brawler.
I've seen it in action. Very effective. The PC used an adamantium +3 heavy mace, and did not worry about "better" weapons. He was a technologist of some sort. Tricks that I saw him do include Snake Style with a ridiculous (inspiration boosted) sense motive score.
But if you really want the better weapon and armour proficiencies Free-style Fighter seems to tick all the boxes.
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Free-style Fighter would be my suggestion as well. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to take prereq feats like a Brawler would. You're not likely to be rotating combat maneuvers or that kind of thing anyway.
Instead, plan on mostly using Martial Flexibility to pick up Dedicated Adversary. It meshes well with Studied Combat once you have Quick Study, and it gives you something similar to Studied Combat from level 1. At 6th level (F1/I5), you'll be able to swift action study an opponent, free action knowledge roll to identify an opponent, and move action to pick up Dedicated Adversary (whatever) for a net +4 to attacks and damage. Dedicated Adversary won't go away if you Studied Strike, and you won't have to activate it again if you're fighting multiple of the same type of creature/opponent.
Plus you get the BAB and proficiencies you're looking for.
I did a str based no dipping as well. But if you're going to dip I suggest bloodrager. You can trade your lv1 power for a familiar, or you can go ID rager and get power attack and more str as you rage, so take the extra rage feat instead of power attack and now you rage 12 rounds. Either way you also get wand use without UMD for a lot of stuff.
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Free-style Fighter would be my suggestion as well. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to take prereq feats like a Brawler would. You're not likely to be rotating combat maneuvers or that kind of thing anyway.
Instead, plan on mostly using Martial Flexibility to pick up Dedicated Adversary. It meshes well with Studied Combat once you have Quick Study, and it gives you something similar to Studied Combat from level 1. At 6th level (F1/I5), you'll be able to swift action study an opponent, free action knowledge roll to identify an opponent, and move action to pick up Dedicated Adversary (whatever) for a net +4 to attacks and damage. Dedicated Adversary won't go away if you Studied Strike, and you won't have to activate it again if you're fighting multiple of the same type of creature/opponent.
Plus you get the BAB and proficiencies you're looking for.
If you take Extra Talent at level 5 you can have quick study a level sooner. I recommend this.
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I did a str based no dipping as well. But if you're going to dip I suggest bloodrager. You can trade your lv1 power for a familiar, or you can go ID rager and get power attack and more str as you rage, so take the extra rage feat instead of power attack and now you rage 12 rounds. Either way you also get wand use without UMD for a lot of stuff.
With the introduction of Bloodline Familiars a one level bloodrager dip can add so much to so many martially inclined characters it's not even funny.
plus it can increase your fort save by 4, 6 while raging. 2 from bloodrager, 2 from familiar, 2 from rage.
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I took a bloodline familiar - a hawk.
Polly is an aberrant bloodline decoy archetype hawk. I don't think I'll have more than 5 levels of classes advancing the familiar, but it will gain the ability to speak all my languages and that will be useful. The aberrant squeezer ability has already been helpful, so has the perception boost.
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Are you married to the idea to go Str-focused? Otherwise, for the Dex oriented build, there's the evergreen dip in Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade): at level 1 you get Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and you can take Fencing Grace to add Dex to damage on rapiers + other good stuff.
If you really like Str, I'd go full Investigator. You don't actually need a dip: you are already proficient in a couple of big weapons thanks to the racial proficiency, and the dip just delays Extract and class features progression.
maybe an option would be to go with this for stats
16+2/12/14/14/12/7 and not dip. Use a longspear, get +4 to hit and +6 damage. Combat reflexes at 1, at lv3 get mutagen and power attack, 5 is extra talent for quick study. Make your weapon inspired and get combat inspiration when you can.
With barkskin and heroism being up like all the time with this build you're a combat beast. that does skills really well.
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For my own strength-based empiricist I never dipped. I use the longspear, took Combat Reflexes at level 1. Got me SO MANY AoOs. Especially enemies trying to close in at round 1 of the combat. Then I took Power Attack at level 3.
Yeah the problem with Combat Reflexes is that I have to focus more on Dex. I could feasibly go 14 Dex 12 Con, but with d8 HP on the Investigator class that's pretty low. I also have another character who's focused on AoO's, so I'm trying to make something different.
Brawler.
I've seen it in action. Very effective. The PC used an adamantium +3 heavy mace, and did not worry about "better" weapons. He was a technologist of some sort. Tricks that I saw him do include Snake Style with a ridiculous (inspiration boosted) sense motive score.
But if you really want the better weapon and armour proficiencies Free-style Fighter seems to tick all the boxes.
Yeah I really want to use a Great-axe on this character (and I've traded out racial weapon familiarity) so Freestyle-Fighter seems like a pretty good pick. I've never really looked at the Brawler class much, but Martial Flexibility is such a fun ability I think I'm going to have to make one now.
Free-style Fighter would be my suggestion as well. I wouldn't worry too much about trying to take prereq feats like a Brawler would. You're not likely to be rotating combat maneuvers or that kind of thing anyway.
Instead, plan on mostly using Martial Flexibility to pick up Dedicated Adversary. It meshes well with Studied Combat once you have Quick Study, and it gives you something similar to Studied Combat from level 1. At 6th level (F1/I5), you'll be able to swift action study an opponent, free action knowledge roll to identify an opponent, and move action to pick up Dedicated Adversary (whatever) for a net +4 to attacks and damage. Dedicated Adversary won't go away if you Studied Strike, and you won't have to activate it again if you're fighting multiple of the same type of creature/opponent.
Plus you get the BAB and proficiencies you're looking for.
DEDICATED ADVERSARY - Amazing find, love your work!
I did a str based no dipping as well. But if you're going to dip I suggest bloodrager. You can trade your lv1 power for a familiar, or you can go ID rager and get power attack and more str as you rage, so take the extra rage feat instead of power attack and now you rage 12 rounds. Either way you also get wand use without UMD for a lot of stuff.
Bloodrager is exactly the same as Barbarian except: 1. I lose 2hp. 2. I gain a level 1 Bloodline Power. & 3. I get to use wands. That's a pretty big upgrade over my original idea. Actually those wands make Ranger look a bit better, I didn't even think of that. I don't think I'll be taking a familiar with this character (doesn't really fit the concept), are there any bloodline powers that are really good? BLACK BLOOD looks pretty thematic for an Investigator (the reason he got into Alchemy was to research his own blood).
Are you married to the idea to go Str-focused? Otherwise, for the Dex oriented build, there's the evergreen dip in Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade): at level 1 you get Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus and you can take Fencing Grace to add Dex to damage on rapiers + other good stuff.
If you really like Str, I'd go full Investigator. You don't actually need a dip: you are already proficient in a couple of big weapons thanks to the racial proficiency, and the dip just delays Extract and class features progression.
Yeah I know the Swastigator is good, but it's too similar to another character I played recently. I traded out weapon familiarity for the Overlooked Mastermind alternate racial trait. This trait was actually inspiration for making this character (both thematically and mechanically) so it's pretty important. I want my character to look like a stupid hulking brute, so a big weapon and decent armour really help sell that.
maybe an option would be to go with this for stats
16+2/12/14/14/12/7 and not dip. Use a longspear, get +4 to hit and +6 damage. Combat reflexes at 1, at lv3 get mutagen and power attack, 5 is extra talent for quick study. Make your weapon inspired and get combat inspiration when you can.
With barkskin and heroism being up like all the time with this build you're a combat beast. that does skills really well.
I really don't like the idea of dropping INT to 14 on an Investigator. Studied-Combat lasts "a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier", which means with 14 INT it'll only last 2 rounds. If I pick up the Mutagen talent that drops to 1 round when i'm using my mutagen. This probably won't matter as much at later levels, but it'll really hurt early on.
A COUPLE OF THINGS I SHOULD PROBABLY HAVE MENTIONED IN MY ORIGINAL POST:
The character concept I'm making is based around the Half-Orc alternate-racial-trait OVERLOOKED MASTERMIND: (This is a both a thematic and mechanical choice for the character)
Some half-orcs use half-orcs' brutish stereotypes to their advantage, causing others to underestimate their intelligence and scheming. Such half-orcs gain a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases to +4 against other humanoids. They also receive a +2 racial bonus on Bluff checks to feign ignorance and Sense Motive checks to intercept secret messages, and this stacks with the above bonus. This racial trait replaces intimidating, orc ferocity, and weapon familiarity.
If I go all out & combine that with STUDENT OF PHILOSOPHY and take INTIMIDATING PROWESS (and play an Empiricist Investigator) I can dump my CHA as hard as possible & still be the party face. I plan on playing him as a rude ugly smelly half-orc who looks like a total moron, but takes advantage of people's willingness to think him an idiot - think LETHO from The Witcher.
To that end I want him to look like a typical meat-shield/beat-stick. Greatsword/Great-axe/Earthbreaker or something similar (thinking Greataxe for that Half-Orc feel), and (at least) medium armour really help that image.
FINAL NOTE: Although there are a few things you've posted that I've disagreed with, that doesn't mean they're bad, I just don't like them for this character. Since these threads tend to be re-read in the years to come I welcome all suggestions, even if they don't fit the character I'm making right now. I may not use your suggestions, but someone probably will. Hell Even if it's not relevant to an Investigator, any good martial dip for future characters is welcome.
KEEP IT COMING PEOPLE
If you go Bloodrager, consider the Steelblood archetype. Proficiency in heavy armor, cast Bloodrager spells in it (though not alchemist extracts)? Sounds legit. I don't think Investigators have problems casting spells in armor, either, though I might be wrong.
Black Blood wouldn't be my choice in terms of power. Elemental bloodline for a 1 level dip = Hey, you can pick an element you like and enchant your weapon with it 3/day, and unlike Black Blood you don't need to get smacked. Not bad.
Alternatively, swing a falchion instead of a greataxe or greatsword and take the Kyton bloodline. Sickened condition with no save? AND a forced concentration check for spellcasters? HELL yes! Even if it's just 1 round, that makes a Keen Falchion or some crit-improving feats rather tempting.
I say stick with investigator proficiency because an Inspired weapon is SO GOOD. adding double your inspiration result onto damage rolls.
combat reflexes works with a 12 dex, or go reach and not take CR, it's not crucial.
If you go Bloodrager, consider the Steelblood archetype. Proficiency in heavy armor, cast Bloodrager spells in it (though not alchemist extracts)? Sounds legit. I don't think Investigators have problems casting spells in armor, either, though I might be wrong.
Black Blood wouldn't be my choice in terms of power. Elemental bloodline for a 1 level dip = Hey, you can pick an element you like and enchant your weapon with it 3/day, and unlike Black Blood you don't need to get smacked. Not bad.
Alternatively, swing a falchion instead of a greataxe or greatsword and take the Kyton bloodline. Sickened condition with no save? AND a forced concentration check for spellcasters? HELL yes! Even if it's just 1 round, that makes a Keen Falchion or some crit-improving feats rather tempting.
Yeah Alchemists/Investigators can "cast" in armour, that's one of the reasons I wanted to get better armour - it's all positive!
Elemental bloodline is almost certainly stronger than Black Blood, I just like the flavour of a Black-Blooded Barbarian turning to Alchemy to know more about his what makes him different.
Kyton bloodline actually sounds really fun. Add CORNUGON SMASH and I'm adding a fairly serious debuff to any enemies ... hmmmmm ...
Steelblood Bloodrager looks really good, but a big part of wanting to go barbarian was to get an Adamantine Breastplate while still keeping a move speed of 30. Do you think "+9AC with a move speed of 20" is better or "+6AC with a move peed of 30". The optimiser inside me thinks that if I'm going with 20 move speed I should have a reach weapon, and if I'm going with a reach weapon I should take Combat Reflexes ... Do you think I'm overthinking this?
I say stick with investigator proficiency because an Inspired weapon is SO GOOD. adding double your inspiration result onto damage rolls.
combat reflexes works with a 12 dex, or go reach and not take CR, it's not crucial.
The main reason for a dip is that before level 4 (when you get Inspired Combat) the Investigator really doesn't get much to help with combat. By dipping 1 level you're not losing much, but you get better proficiencies (which helps with damage & armour), you can take power attack at level 1 (Power attack will give you more damage this way at levels 1, 2 and 5) and you can get some other goodies associated with the class. Inspired weapon is more of a mid-late game buff, so it's less relevant to helping those early levels. Inspired Weapon is a great buff, but I've always thought of it as a way to keep rapier damage on par with a greatsword, rather than a way to make it better than a greatsword. If you have experience that says otherwise I'm all ears?
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Steelblood Bloodrager looks really good, but a big part of wanting to go barbarian was to get an Adamantine Breastplate while still keeping a move speed of 30. Do you think "+9AC with a move speed of 20" is better or "+6AC with a move peed of 30". The optimiser inside me thinks that if I'm going with 20 move speed I should have a reach weapon, and if I'm going with a reach weapon I should take Combat Reflexes ... Do you think I'm overthinking this?
Well, when you charge you'll move at 40 feet, and that's going to be your primary gap closer probably. But 30 movement speed IS really good. That's up to you.
Whether you go with Fast Movement or heavy armor, you get to be a big bruiser with a big weapon in big armor with a big, ugly face. That's the important part.
I do agree on Cornugon Smash, though. That's for certain.
Personally, I think that you could just carry both a falchion AND a reach weapon for different circumstances. The Combat Reflexes route sounds perfectly good for an Investigator given what others have said, but that's up to you. Also, consider having Lunge and some sort of "oh crap the enemy's inside my reach area" weapon, like spiked armor.
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I played a STR based Alchemist in PFS with a 1 level dip in Barbarian at the start for Power attack and some rage. He was amazingly fun to play. One feat into extra rage should give you enough rage that you can use it for two or three fights per day. You really can't beat the 12 HP + CON bonus at first level either.
I'm not sure if investigators can get Feral Mutagen (I've never looked much at that class), but it was amazing for my first alchemist discovery on that character. Attacking with three natural attacks at level 3 while buffed by a mutagen and rage should be illegal, but it isn't.
Let me review why you want a dip, exactly.
Requirements for dip:
+1BAB (allows me to take POWER ATTACK at level 1)
Martial Weapon Proficiency (I'm trading out Weapon Familiarity for the Overlooked Mastermind Alternate Racial Trait).
Medium Armour Proficiency (that light armour just won't cut it with my massive 12 DEX).
Speaking from personal experience, Power Attack at 1st level isn't absolutely necessary, especially for a secondary front-liner like yourself. Damage dice and ability modifiers are usually more important, and being 3/4 BAB, you won't want the to-hit penalty right away, even if it's an extra 3 damage with a two-handed weapon; missing by 1 AC is very common in the low levels, and you'll be shooting yourself in the foot every time you miss because of Power Attack.
Unless you're wanting to get some feat combination ASAP, it's not worth it. Only ones that come to mind that might help you would be things like Cleave (which is a meh feat anyway, even if it supplements the fact you're 3/4 BAB) and Cornugon Smash, which requires 6 Ranks of Intimidate anyway, so you can stand to delay the feat progression for other feats by taking other feats you want before Power Attack.
Martial Weapon Proficiency could be useful, but to be honest, I'd not worry about it. There are several Simple Weapons that can do what you're looking for without having to delay or sacrifice class progression, and they're still practically the same effectiveness. As with above, unless you're wanting to get some special combination (such as Shield Brace with a Nodachi), it's not worth it, especially for things with reach (Longspear), crit range (Kukri), and so on.
The Armor proficiency can be fixed with a feat (remember what I suggested with Power Attack? You can do that here), or just have proper armor application. Taking the Armor Expert trait (or enhancing your armor with the Comfort property, a flat gold value), you can wear Mithril Breastplate with no ACP, so even without proficiency, you're able to function with Medium (which is technically Light) armor without any issue on your behalf, meaning the requirement for proficiency (which is to not apply ACP to your to-hit and skills) becomes pointless. Cookie cutter, perhaps, but since you specified Medium Armor, that's the best you get.
So, from what I've gathered, taking a dip won't solve your desired issues any more than proper system mastery would, whereas the latter doesn't come with the baggage of delaying or losing Empiricist progression. In my opinion, the answer is clear; the dip isn't necessary.
Of course, I would suggest that if you were going to dip, the Swashigator is your best bet, but that would convert you into a pure Dexterity-based build (and work with Fencing Grace via Rapier), which is not something you're willing to do, since you specified being Strength-based (which is fine; Dexterity builds are usually trap options anyway according to the math).
Savage Technologist Barbarian gets +4STR/+4DEX and loses no AC, which is just ridiculously nice.
More attacks with Monk is never a bad thing; Sohei Monk allows flurry in mithral medium armor and counts flurry as full BAB, so... yeah.
Interestingly enough, with Monk, you can create a character who wields a reach weapon in two hands for standard attacks and reach-AoO attacks, but then uses unarmed strike flurry at close range. Eventually you can even weave it into Outslug Style...
Monk doesn't have the Full BAB he wants, so that's out of the picture.
Savage Technologist Barbarian looks legit, though.
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General Thought
I have played straight investigators and dipped. Dipping is fun. I dipped inspired blade and unchained barbarian. Got a +1 furious keen rapier and attuned a bane baldric. The build is a blast. Dipping trades versatility for combat power. My experience is investigators are so dominate in skills and being a face (with empiricist) one level is negligible. You can use alchemical allocation to make up for the lost extract level and Inspired Alchemy to further close the gap.
I have found feats to be really tight on most investigator builds. If you are set on saving feats I like an Id rager steelblood.
It is the best dip I have found
You gain martial weapons, heavy armour, rage, a spirit power (can be power attack with anger, though there are other good ones), skill focus, and an additional power from the spirit. Go all in a pay 1500gp for an ioun stone to get weapon familiarity with one exotic weapon and grab a fauchard.
Make the weapon furious even better enchantment than inspired IMHO. You can't mess up a build after that.
If you're going to dip bloodrager or swashigator (inspired blade) are the best choices, but I have to say a strength build with a longspear straight empiricist works pretty nicely. It's a lot like a reach cleric, but different buffs. You'll still do your share of damage at first level, but you'll have enough buffs and out of combat utility until you reach the optimal point of level four.
Yeah so far Bloodrager seems by far the best option, although I will say Freestyle Fighter (or Brawler) still sounds fun. I know you don't NEED the dip, but I think a 1-level dip can add a lot of versatility and unique characteristics to a character without losing a lot.
I'm not sure if investigators can get Feral Mutagen (I've never looked much at that class), but it was amazing for my first alchemist discovery on that character. Attacking with three natural attacks at level 3 while buffed by a mutagen and rage should be illegal, but it isn't.
As far as I know the Investigator can only get the basic Mutagen (+4 Physical, -2 Mental), but if I'm wrong on that someone let me know coz that's a pretty big game-changer.
Let me review why you want a dip, exactly.
(Paraphrasing->)DIP NOT NECESSARY(<-Paraphrasing)Requirements for dip:
+1BAB (allows me to take POWER ATTACK at level 1)
Martial Weapon Proficiency (I'm trading out Weapon Familiarity for the Overlooked Mastermind Alternate Racial Trait).
Medium Armour Proficiency (that light armour just won't cut it with my massive 12 DEX).
You're right, it's not necessary, but it's fun and it can add a lot of versatility and unique flavour to a character.
The other thing is that all the dips we've mentioned add something extra on top of my "requirements".
- Fighter grants an extra feat (useful on almost any class).
- Freestyle-Figher grants Martial-Flexibility (arguably better than the fighter's fixed-feat).
- Barbarian grants Fast Movement (which i'm going to trade for DR2/-) and 6 rounds of Rage (really good at low levels and a nice backup at later levels).
- Bloodrager grants everything the Barbarian gave us, but ALSO a Bloodline Power AND access to Wands (Seriously all that for a 1-level dip?)
And I haven't even mentioned yet that all these classes also grant you extra HP: My level 1 character as an Investigator would have 10HP, as a Fighter/Bloodrager would have 12HP, and as a Barbarian would have 14HP. That's not a small difference at that level.
And what do I lose for all that? Not all that much as far as I'm concerned.
Is it worth it? That's what we're here debating, but if you ask me the answer is a strong "Yes".
I dipped unchained monk for my STR investigator. I picked crane style to keep a good AC without armor.
That's actually better than I thought it'd be. I'd probably want more WIS if I was going that route (at least 14) but I'll definitely keep that in mind for future characters.
Savage Technologist Barbarian gets +4STR/+4DEX and loses no AC, which is just ridiculously nice.
More attacks with Monk is never a bad thing; Sohei Monk allows flurry in mithral medium armor and counts flurry as full BAB, so... yeah.
Interestingly enough, with Monk, you can create a character who wields a reach weapon in two hands for standard attacks and reach-AoO attacks, but then uses unarmed strike flurry at close range. Eventually you can even weave it into Outslug Style...
All good options. The Saveage Technologist Dex-Bonus (instead of Con-Bonus) seems like a straight upgrade if you ask me.
I've been meaning to do something with Sohei for a while now. How to archetypes (like Sohei) interact with Unchained Monk?Monk doesn't have the Full BAB he wants, so that's out of the picture.
Savage Technologist Barbarian looks legit, though.
UNCHAINED MONK gets full BAB.
Also I'm happy for people to post something a bit different if they really think it'll be amazing.
General Thought
I have played straight investigators and dipped. Dipping is fun. I dipped inspired blade and unchained barbarian. Got a +1 furious keen rapier and attuned a bane baldric. The build is a blast. Dipping trades versatility for combat power. My experience is investigators are so dominate in skills and being a face (with empiricist) one level is negligible. You can use alchemical allocation to make up for the lost extract level and Inspired Alchemy to further close the gap.
I have found feats to be really tight on most investigator builds. If you are set on saving feats I like an Id rager steelblood.
It is the best dip I have found
You gain martial weapons, heavy armour, rage, a spirit power (can be power attack with anger, though there are other good ones), skill focus, and an additional power from the spirit. Go all in a pay 1500gp for an ioun stone to get weapon familiarity with one exotic weapon and grab a fauchard.
Make the weapon furious even better enchantment than inspired IMHO. You can't mess up a build after that.
Heh, now I want to dip Barb+Swash so I can wield a Furious-Inspired-Rapier. For a 6/9 caster a 2 level dip is pushing things back a lot further though.
You're going to have to explain Steelblood-Id-Rager to me. I'm not an expert in Barbaians, Bloodragers are completely new to me and the Id-Rager is just baffling (Spiritualist/Barbarian instead of Sorcerer/Barbarian? I know nothing about the Spiritualist 0_o )
CURRENT THOUGHTS:
So far I'm thinking I'll take Bloodrager. It seems the most powerful and it's so close to my original character concept that I don't have to rewrite anything. Black-Blood seems pretty good for an Alchemist character, but the whole tortured-masochist theme of the Kyton Bloodline actually fits my character pretty well too.
I'm still interested to hear what people have to say though. I like the idea that a dip can give you all these options without seriously hampering your main schtick, so suggestions are always welcome.
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I say the main schticks of the investigator are Alchemy and Studied Combat, with mutagen running a nice third. Dipping definitely hurts, because it delays access to higher-level extracts.
Alchemy is insanely good. You have the best self-buffing spell list. At first level you get Longarm, Shield and Enlarge Person which make you a reach monster. At level 4 you get Alter Self, Barkskin, Alchemical Allocation and Ablative Barrier, which make you a formidable tank. Level 7 gets you Heroism, Monstrous Physique I (gargoyle), Displacement and Absorb Toxicity. Level 10 gets you Caustic Blood, Monstrous Physique II (vouivre), Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, ...
But Alchemy progresses slowly. I wouldn't want to delay it by dipping. Dipping barbarian is a gain in the short term because it's so frontloaded, while the investigator really pays off in the long term.
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But let me sketch you an empiricist that doesn't dip. At level 1 we start with these stats:
STR 17 (including +2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 7
We take the longspear as our primary weapon and wear a cestus as an always-ready weapon in case we need to fight up closer.
Traits: Armor Expert and Student of Philosophy.
Feat: Combat Reflexes. Whenever we're anywhere that danger might lurk, walk around with your longspear drawn.
Your combat plan is to let enemies come to you, getting an AoO for them closing in, on top of possible readied actions. You're doing a decent 1d8+4 damage with the longspear, until you drink Enlarge Person, at which point it becomes 2d6+6, which is perfectly decent. Your AC will be a decent 16 (leather lamellar, dex) which Shield raises to 20, very reasonable at level 1.
People keep whining that investigators have it hard until they get studied combat, but for this build that isn't true. You tend to get 1-3 free attacks per combat out of Combat Reflexes, out of enemies that foolishly try to close in with you before you're no longer flat-footed, or that try to stand up after you've tripped them. And a 16+ strength with a 2H weapon just does a lot of damage.
By level 4 though, things get even better. Your strength goes up to 18 and Mutagen takes it to 22 for 40 minutes at a stretch, you've bought a mithral breastplate so your AC starts out at 18 before buffs and with Shield, Mutagen and Barkskin moves up to 26. Since you sank a lot of money into that breastplate you're probably still using a mere cold iron masterwork longspear, but with studied combat and power attack you're still hitting at a very respectable +11 to hit for 1d8+14 damage. And this is you being quite conservative with extracts, you can keep this up for a very long time.
Now look at level 8. You've raised your Int to 16 giving you a longer duration on your Studied Combat; you should be able to kill anything in melee in three rounds. You've since bought a +1 adamantine longspear with either Bane, Inspired or Fortuitous on it (all good, style preference). You have a +2 strength belt. You have Phalanx Formation so when you hulk out you can hit over your friends with no trouble. Studying is a swift action. Heroism is running constantly. When combat begins you drink either a Combined Extract of Enlarge Person+Shield, or Monstrous Physique I to turn into a gargoyle. Either way you're now at Strength 26. You hit with Furious Focus at a to-hit of +21/+13 for 2d6+19 damage with the spear (hulk), or with a +19/+19/+19/+19 2x 1d6+16 and 2x 1d4+16,1d4+16 all-natural gargoyle routine, or a spear-and-natural +21/+13 1d8+19 and +14/+14 2x 1d4+12 mixed routine. While flying.
TL;DR - you don't need the dip at low level and you don't need it at high level.
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Let's get started on with the Id rager. Spell caster so you get access to some nice wands. Next part seems complicated but it becomes clearer (I think). You give up your bloodline powers for rage that comes from your emotions. So you pick an emotion. Let's pick anger. First you gain a skill focus associated with it, intimidate in our example. Next you get the powers of the phantom while raging Strength Focus and powerful strike.
That's all there is to it.
Now, on the subject of multiclassing. I think people think about multiclassing wrong. That is not to say the are wrong about giving up power in the form of extracts but it's a matter of perspective. Take my prior build swash-barb-gator. It is not a weaker investigator (well it is but that's not the point) is a way more versatile Swashbuckler.
Sometimes classes are front loaded and dispite taking a single level your character always plays like that class. Barbarian and Swashbucklers are very front loaded and fall into that category. The build I suggested is a melee monster 95% accuracy against cr+4. Out damages a Barbarian of equal level, highly optimized AC and Perry to keep from getting hit. Rarely need to heal because of temp hit points. I don't know many spells on the alchemist list better than rage and parry for combat.
It has become it's own entity. It is a rage powered fencer that has a ton of utility powers. It's a martial class with delayed 6th level casting. I don't think fo it as an investigator to compare to other investogators, but a martial genius swordsman that one on one a barbarian, chat with a bard, out rogue the rogue, and and has enough magic to find solutions to many problems.
Id rager makes you a psychic caster instead of arcane and it removes your bloodline.
There are basically 2 options to look at for your dip.
ANGER
Your skill focus is Intimidate or Survival - thematic barb skills
when raging you get all the normal rage and +2 str, -2 dex, and power attack.
*personally I feel this is the best damage dip around.
DEDICATION
Your skill focus is Diplomacy or Sense Motive - good social skills
When raging you get all the normal rage and iron will, and you get a +2 to attack rolls and your damage is treated as 1 size larger against the most recent person to attack you.
*this gives iron will which is nice, otherwise you need to get attacked for any bonuses.
all the others don't work well or don't match your build (like there's a good weapon finesse one in hatred and a small debuff one in jealousy)
The real deal is do what you want OP. Dipping works and staying straight works. The difference in power is relative and marginal. So if you want your character to dip, the options your considering are good choices and wont hinder your character, but you should feel like dipping is required to achieve your goal. There's isn't really any "right answer" here.
Heck you can go
16+2/14/13/16/7/7 and go dedication for iron will while raging. Getting the good str and the good int.
Id rager is quite good, though it may be worth considering that it has a -2 or -3 AC from Rage when Savage Technologist has a +2 AC. A 5 point gap is enough to be pretty significant.
yeah, Savage Technologist is the best overall combat booster. giving +2 AC instead of -2AC while raging and assuming armor can accommodate, AND you never have to worry about sudden barb death when dropping rage. The downside is that it doesn't give you better armor proficiency. So you're either in light (not bad cause you'll make the AC from it) or you're taking the trait and getting mithral breastplate (not bad cause you'll make good use of the dex limit)
Savage Technologist also stacks with a number of Archetypes that trade out Fast Movement. Most of them aren't worth it but there's a number of interesting options.
If you are concerned about AC just go for a Steelbreaker Bloodrager with a protector familiar and you're set...
However both the Barb and the Bloodrager Dip sort of require that you spend a feat or at least a trait (only Barbs) on extra rage rounds.
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Drunken brute barbarian. Being able to drink extracts as a move action is incredibly good on an investigator. (Also only modifies fast movement, so it has possibilities with several other barbarian archetypes.)
Very interesting, but if I'm not mistake, the drunken brute doesn't get to draw the extracts any faster, just drink them if he has them in hand.
Having played with Potion Glutton when it was still cool, I can attest how powerful that was. Raising your buffs while also whittling down enemies was wonderful.
I guess a prehensile tail could fix that...
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Drunken brute barbarian. Being able to drink extracts as a move action is incredibly good on an investigator. (Also only modifies fast movement, so it has possibilities with several other barbarian archetypes.)Very interesting, but if I'm not mistake, the drunken brute doesn't get to draw the extracts any faster, just drink them if he has them in hand.
Having played with Potion Glutton when it was still cool, I can attest how powerful that was. Raising your buffs while also whittling down enemies was wonderful.
I guess a prehensile tail could fix that...
You are correct. I have used it to slam the potion of enlarge I would carry into every fight it helped a lot.
With an investigator the routine is free action rage, swift study, move drink potion in hand, standard drink extract. It gets you going fast.
Actually, I'm going to suggest the Slayer. They net you +1 BAB and keep your 6 + Int skill points a level, as well as medium armor proficiency. You won't get to Sneak Attack but Studied Target is still potentially of use to you as well.
Snakebite Striker Brawler 2 opens up some very interesting options as a dip, but typically 2 levels is too painful... unless perhaps using Artful Dodge to grab further TWF feats and go full Brawler's armored flurry on an Investigator?
I say the main schticks of the investigator are Alchemy and Studied Combat, with mutagen running a nice third. Dipping definitely hurts, because it delays access to higher-level extracts.
(It's a long post, I won't copy it all)
I think the other thing to add is Inspiration. It's definitely a unique characteristic.
Your example definitely looked like an effective character, but it's not the character I'm imagining (Also just to nit pick a little, your character at 4th level only had 1 round of studied combat when using his mutagen. Easy fix is to just up INT at 4 & STR at 8, different strokes for different folks I guess).
I fully agree with you, you don't NEED the dip, but I want it. I also don't think I'm nerfing the character with this. It will be slightly less powerful at some levels and slightly more at other levels, but not enough to be game-breaking (I admit it will hurt at level 4, but I think it'll make up for it at levels 1-3).
Now, on the subject of multiclassing. I think people think about multiclassing wrong. That is not to say the are wrong about giving up power in the form of extracts but it's a matter of perspective. Take my prior build swash-barb-gator. It is not a weaker investigator (well it is but that's not the point) is a way more versatile Swashbuckler.
Yeah this is really how I see it. I'm a Big Honking Tank who uses potions (extracts) to buff himself & uses his intelligence to give himself an edge in battle (Studied Combat). I know I could play this without the dip, but the dip is both a mechanical aid and a role-playing aid. It helps me get in character.
(also thanks for the Id-Rager stuff. Only thing I'm concerned about is whether that Power Attack would only work during a rage?)
Id rager makes you a psychic caster instead of arcane and it removes your bloodline.
There are basically 2 options to look at for your dip.
ANGER
Your skill focus is Intimidate or Survival - thematic barb skills
when raging you get all the normal rage and +2 str, -2 dex, and power attack.
*personally I feel this is the best damage dip around.
DEDICATION
Your skill focus is Diplomacy or Sense Motive - good social skills
When raging you get all the normal rage and iron will, and you get a +2 to attack rolls and your damage is treated as 1 size larger against the most recent person to attack you.
*this gives iron will which is nice, otherwise you need to get attacked for any bonuses.
all the others don't work well or don't match your build (like there's a good weapon finesse one in hatred and a small debuff one in jealousy)
Ah yup, only while raging. They both seem like really good dips, I'd have to invest a bit more in EXTRA RAGE. Oh, for some whacky reason I thought Extra Rage only gave you 2 extra rounds per day ... it's way better than I thought haha!
(Thanks guys, that's another really solid option)
Id rager is quite good, though it may be worth considering that it has a -2 or -3 AC from Rage when Savage Technologist has a +2 AC. A 5 point gap is enough to be pretty significant.
Yup Savage Technologist seems like a good option too.
However both the Barb and the Bloodrager Dip sort of require that you spend a feat or at least a trait (only Barbs) on extra rage rounds.
There's a Trait for extra rounds of rage for barbs?
EDIT: FOUND IT ...?
Drunken brute barbarian. Being able to drink extracts as a move action is incredibly good on an investigator. (Also only modifies fast movement, so it has possibilities with several other barbarian archetypes.)
AND...
Very interesting, but if I'm not mistake, the drunken brute doesn't get to draw the extracts any faster, just drink them if he has them in hand.
Having played with Potion Glutton when it was still cool, I can attest how powerful that was. Raising your buffs while also whittling down enemies was wonderful.
I guess a prehensile tail could fix that...
Yeah it's probably worth checking with your GM for these. Good options if they work though.
With an investigator the routine is free action rage, swift study, move drink potion in hand, standard drink extract. It gets you going fast.
Lol
Actually, I'm going to suggest the Slayer. They net you +1 BAB and keep your 6 + Int skill points a level, as well as medium armor proficiency. You won't get to Sneak Attack but Studied Target is still potentially of use to you as well.
This is an interesting one, it's basically the same buff the Investigator gets (I think Investigator should get Studied Combat at level 2, it would pretty much be this). Nice find.
Snakebite Striker Brawler 2 opens up some very interesting options as a dip, but typically 2 levels is too painful... unless perhaps using Artful Dodge to grab further TWF feats and go full Brawler's armored flurry on an Investigator?
I'm unlikely to go a 2 level dip, but is there any particular reason Snakebite is better than regular brawler? How would you make 1d6 Sneak-Attack better than Martial-Flexibility?
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BadBird wrote:
Snakebite Striker Brawler 2 opens up some very interesting options as a dip, but typically 2 levels is too painful... unless perhaps using Artful Dodge to grab further TWF feats and go full Brawler's armored flurry on an Investigator?I'm unlikely to go a 2 level dip, but is there any particular reason Snakebite is better than regular brawler? How would you make 1d6 Sneak-Attack better than Martial-Flexibility?
Be a Tengu!
3 natural attacks with rage and sneak attack, from level 2. Is exactly where Malachi is at.
Extra rage giving 6 rounds of rage is a lot. Most of my PFS characters have that feat (take it instead of power attack), giving you 12 rounds. I've been able to rage every round of combat for like 90% or more of the fights. 3 fights is 4 rounds per fight.
Sorry for the late reply, my internet has been on the fritz.
I'm unlikely to go a 2 level dip, but is there any particular reason Snakebite is better than regular brawler? How would you make 1d6 Sneak-Attack better than Martial-Flexibility?Be a Tengu!
3 natural attacks with rage and sneak attack, from level 2. Is exactly where Malachi is at.
What I meant there was that since Martial Flexibility can get you things like DEDICATED ADVERSARY for 4 minutes per day it seems objectively more powerful than 1d6 sneak-attack damage. Obviously if you're multiclassing 2 classes that both get sneak-attack it becomes much more viable, but if you're not the regular brawler seems the better option ...?
Extra rage giving 6 rounds of rage is a lot. Most of my PFS characters have that feat (take it instead of power attack), giving you 12 rounds. I've been able to rage every round of combat for like 90% or more of the fights. 3 fights is 4 rounds per fight.
Yeah going from 6 rounds of rage per day to 12 with just a feat (or 15 with a trait as well) means that rage changes from "nice backup" to "viable combat strategy" (seriuosly 15 rounds of +6 STR and Power-Attack on a level-1 character is pretty rediculous)
IN CLOSING:
Thanks everyone, I'm pretty sure ID-Rager is going to be my pick. It's so close to the original concept thematically but so much more powerful mechanically.
If people want to keep discussing this I'm more than happy to keep talking, but you the forumites have answered my query to satisfaction (I felt like talking fancy).
Thank you all =)
Ooh I thought of another question:
If I do go ID-Rager, do I count as having Power-Attack for Prerequisites? If I wanted to take Cornugon-Smash later on would I qualify?
Links for your convenience:
SPIRITUALIST PHANTOMS (Because that link isn't perfect I'll also post a quote)
Powerful Strike (Ex)
A phantom with this focus deals more damage with its slam attacks. It deals slam damage as a creature one size category larger than its current size.
The phantom also gains Power Attack as a bonus feat.
I believe you do but only while raging.
Yeah that's what I thought, but I just wanted to double check.
I know if I'm not raging I don't have it, so I lose the prerequisite, so I lose the advantage of the feat. That part I'm on board with.
I'm just checking that I'm actually getting the feat when I rage & not some pseudo-feat that looks the same but doesn't count.
Thanks for the quick response.
Did they ever resolve the "slam" issue with the Id Rager?
yes, if the Id rager has a slam it boosts that slam. If you don't have a slam then there's nothing to boost.
Did they ever resolve the "slam" issue with the Id Rager?
I don't know what you're talking about. Just the fact that I won't have a Slam? Does that matter? It looks good without it, it'll still be good right? 0_o
I just played my unchained monk1/investigator5 last night for the first time with quick study. Freely using studied strike made short work of minion type foes.
While I get a lot out of the monk dip, I can see the upside of not dipping.
Yeah fair enough. You don't need it, but you can get a lot out of it.