I need help building my sorceress’s Spells Known – please, pretty please. I put her together on the “What looks like fun?” model of character building, and in that respect, the build has been successful. But she’s gotten to the exalted heights of 10th level (we’re leveling up to 11th right now, before the next game), and for the past few encounters, I’ve found that the world is windier up here. In short, SR has become a problem. Plus, I’ve been reading these boards now, and have figured out that actually planning a build can be helpful.
So here I am, trying to fix ten levels (eek!) of haphazard spell-picks, or at least plan the next two to four to balance them out. (Forgive my cynicism, but I’m well aware that campaigns often fall apart at windy heights, and we level slowly. Planning all the way to 20th level when reaching it is years away at best still seems unnecessary to me.)
Luckily, 11th is a great level to be reaching after coming to this realization – I get a spell of every level, 2nd through 5th. Only 1st is completely filled up, although I am getting my last 2nd and 3rd spell this level, not counting retraining. On retraining: my GM has no formal rules for it, but the sorcerer class description says I can swap out one spell every even level, so that’s what I can count on for 12th & 14th.
OTOH, I have recently become aware that sorcerers can RAW learn spells from other arcane lists, with GM permission, if they come across them, and I have a bard in my party. Whether my GM will permit me to learn spells from him, I don’t know – but I’m willing to look at options now.
Finally, I’ve been avoiding Touch spells, preferring to strike from range. And some of the deficiencies in my spell list stem from my own difficulties (as a player) with spacial problems. I can manage a Fireball just fine – even better now that I have Selective Spell, of course. But I’ve avoided Pits & Clouds out of a sense of horror because they’re not dismissable. I’m pretty sure I’ll place a spell like that just where it helps the enemy and blocks my friends. Well, maybe it’s time I forced myself to practice with them. Dispel Magic may be the best 3rd-level pick as a result – but it looks like even then I’ll be forced to roll dice against myself!
I’m not looking for help right now on feats, equipment & so forth, just spells. I’m also not looking for advice on dips or other extreme power builds, just spells. But I sure can use your help on spells!
Initiative +2 (No bonuses.); Skilled instead of Dark Vision.
AC 22; Touch 15; Flat-ftd 20. (Includes Bracers of Armor +4; Amulet of Natural Armor +3; Ring of Deflection +2; Ioun Stone +1.)
HP 69. (I’ve rolled poorly.)
Fort 11; Ref 12; Will 13. (Includes Cloak of Resistance +3; +2 Luck bonus to all saves from Sacred Tattoos & Fate’s Favored trait; Lightning Reflexes – which helps with her Ring of Evasion.)
Fire Resistance 20 (Efreeti bloodline); Cold Resistance 30 (IF wearing ring – not normally equipped).
Speed 30 ft.
Attack bonus with rays is 7. (No bonuses.)
STR 13, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 24. (I rolled well; Headband of Alluring Charisma +4.)
BAB +5; CMB +5; CMD +19 (counting the Ring of Deflection but not the Ioun Stone).
Traits are the Fate’s Favored; Influence; Kin Bond (custom half-orc version w/ the party bard, her twin brother); Paranoid drawback.
Feats are Eschew Materials (bonus); Point-Blank Shot; Precise Shot; Craft Wondrous Items; Elemental Focus (fire); Lightning Reflexes (bonus); Selective Spell (9th-level feat taken at 10th); Quick Draw (taken now at 11th).
(My plan is for her to take Quicken Spell (13th); Empower Spell (bonus at 13th); Spell Perfection (15th); Spell Penetration (17th). The last is late, but I want Quick Draw now to get access to her metamagic rods.)
Equipment includes stuff named; Handy Haversack; Blazing Robe (+1 CL for fire spells); Circlet of Persuasion; Gloves of Elvenkind (concentration check to cast defensively @ +26); Rod of Extinguish Flame;
Metamagic rods (so far): Lesser Dazing; Elemental (acid & cold); Lesser Maximize; Merciful; Lesser Persistent; Piercing; Lesser Silent; Lesser Toppling; 8 are in Scabbard of Many Blades.
DCs 17 for cantrips through 22 for 5th level, plus 1 for fire spells; CL vs. SR +11, plus 1 for fire spells.
Varitsa’s current spells known:
Arcana Change descriptor & damage of any energy spell to fire.
Bloodline Powers Fire Ray (1d6 + 10 currently, incl. FCB, ranged touch, max 10x/day, SR: I believe “yes”); Fire Resistance 20; Efreeti Form (su, 11 rds (D), 1x/day, no flight).
Cantrips Acid Splash; Detect Magic; Light; Open/Close; Prestidigitation; Ray of Frost; Read Magic; Resistance; Spark (9)
1st Level Break; Burning Hands; Color Spray; Enlarge Person*; Grease; Magic Missile (6).
2nd Level Acid Arrow; Fiery Shuriken; Invisibility; Scorching Ray*; Rope Trick (5).
3rd Level Fireball*; Invisibility Sphere; Lightning Bolt; Slow (4).
4th Level Greater Invisibility; Stoneskin; Wall of Fire* (3).
5th Level Feeblemind (1); Persistent Image* @ 11th (2)
*Bloodline spells
Mudball (1st, **SR N**): Conjure ball of sticky mud, ranged touch, to blind target; Refl ends.
Protection from Evil (1st, **SR N**): Multiple effects, see text.
Shield (1st, Personal): Gain +4 shield bonus to AC, force effect & negates Magic Missile.
~
Blistering Invective (Bard 2nd, SR fire y, demoralize n): AoE demoralize; 1d10+5 fire; may catch fire.
Dust of Twilight (2nd, **SR N**): Fort negs; fatigues creatures, 10' spread, & extinguishes all light.
Frost Fall (2nd, SR y): 5' radius burst, 2d6+staggered; +1d6 for 1 rd/2 CLs.
Stone Call (2nd, **SR N**): 40'-radius cylinder gets 2d6 bludg; difficult terrain for CL rds.
~
Dispel Magic (3rd, **SR N**): Eliminate 1 spell on target or counterspell.
Displacement (3rd, **SR harmless**): Grant person touched 50% miss chance for 1 rnd/lvl.
Pellet Blast (3rd, **SR N**): 5d8 piercing in 30' cone; material comps help vs. DR.
Stinking Cloud (3rd, **SR N**): 20' radius cloud of nauseated, CL rds.
~
Black Tentacles (4th, dismissable!, **SR N**): Grapple CL+5 as CMB for 1d6+4 in 20’ radius, dif terr, CL rds.
Dimension Door (4th, SR n & obj. y): Teleport w/in long range.
**Dragon's Breath** (4th, SR y): Cone or line & any element!
- Consider for perfection; double-check cost of dragon scales!
Enervation (4th, SR y): Ranged touch attack deals 1d4 negative levels; last 1 hr/CL.
Obsidian Flow (4th, **SR N**): 20' radius molten glass 1/2 CL d6 + entangled Ref (1/2/avoid); see text.
~
Cone of Cold (5th, SR y): 60 ft. cone burst (1d6, max 15d6).
Fire Snake (5th, SR y): Adjustable line (1d6, max 15d6)
- OR just use Selective Intensified Fireball (3rd+2; SR y).
Hungry Pit (5th, **SR N**): Create Pit max 100', +4d6/rnd, Climb DC 35.
Overland Flight (5th, personal): Fly for 1 hr/CL.
Transmute Rock to Mud (5th, **SR N**): Two 10’ cubes/lvl of natural rock to mud; 8d6 blud. possible.
Can you help me sort through this mess?
Note glitterdust too; it's a good spell, core rulebook, and it has SR: No.
What feats do you have? Lower level spells often need either persistent spell, intensify spell or empower spell to be useful at higher levels. Or rime spell in the case of frost fall perhaps.
With greater invis and stoneskin you don't really need more defensive spells just now IMO. Contingency is something to look forward too, maybe as your 2nd 6th level spell.
Overland flight is a must.
I would replacing Invisibility Sphere OR Lighting Bolt with Haste, and Acid Arrow OR Fiery Shurikin with Glitter Dust.
Some of my favorite 5th level spells are Dominate Person (make bad guy join your team), Hungry Pit (drop opponents out of combat and deal damage every round), Roaming Pit (less initial damage and no damage over time, but you can move it around to remove more opponents from combat), Fire Snake (burn all your enemies and none of your allies even in close combat), Phantasmal Web (kind of like web but it cannot be destroyed and only affects your enemies). If Feeble Mind and Persistent Image have not helped you much you may want to trade them out for Fire Snake and Roaming Pit.
Some of my favorite 6th level spells are Contingency, Chain Lightning (like Fireball but better), Summon Monster 6 (Dire Tiger: charge + pounce + all attacks + rake + grad = frustrated GM (it can do all that in one full round)), Banshee Blast (untyped damage that may panic enemies, removing some of them from combat). I would suggest Summon Monster 6 first since since spell resistance is giving you trouble, and then work on getting Spell Penetration Feats in the future.
You may want to see about retraining to swap out Point-Blank Shop, Precise Shot, and Elemental Focus for Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Spell Specialization (evocation).
Anyways, this is your character so you do what you want and what you think will be fun.
Note glitterdust too; it's a good spell, core rulebook, and it has SR: No.
What feats do you have? Lower level spells often need either persistent spell, intensify spell or empower spell to be useful at higher levels. Or rime spell in the case of frost fall perhaps.
With greater invis and stoneskin you don't really need more defensive spells just now IMO. Contingency is something to look forward too, maybe as your 2nd 6th level spell.
Overland flight is a must.
avr, thanks for your help.
[Traits are terribly, terribly irrelevant.] Feats are...
Eschew Materials (bonus);
Point-Blank Shot;
Precise Shot;
Craft Wondrous Items;
Elemental Focus (fire);
Lightning Reflexes (bonus);
Selective Spell (9th-level feat taken at 10th);
Quick Draw (taken now at 11th).
My plan is for her to take...
Quicken Spell (13th);
Empower Spell (bonus at 13th);
Spell Perfection (15th);
Spell Penetration (17th).
The last is late, but I want Quick Draw now to get access to her metamagic rods [which includes Piercing].
Metamagic rods (so far):
Lesser Dazing [which I've double-checked as available per GM];
Elemental (acid & cold);
Lesser Maximize;
Merciful;
Lesser Persistent;
Piercing;
Lesser Silent;
Lesser Toppling;
8 are in Scabbard of Many Blades [1 is in hand or in Haversack].
[The store was out of Intensified Metamagic Rods on my most recent shopping trip, and I'm waiting for Cone of Cold before a Rime Metamagic Rod becomes worth the cost. Both have been noted for future purchases. That will give me the feats you were looking at, plus Selective (important in a party with a player who will rush into melee even against an identified mind flayer!) and Quicken.]
I'm noting Glitterdust as my 2nd level pick -- that's over the other ones listed, then?
What about 3rd? Pellet Blast or Stinking Cloud? Or Dispel Magic?
And if I don't need another defensive spell, does that clear me to grab an attack spell over D-Door for 4th? And if so, which one now and which one at 13th? (Which will be the last of them.) I want Dragon's Breath real bad, but I also have invested in rays like Enervation, and I now want spells that avoid SR like Obsidian Flow or (now that I've noticed it's dismissable) Black Tentacles. Maybe Stoneskin was a mistake, but we DO have someone who loves to rush into melee...
So Overland Flight as my second 5th? (Note that I won't get the third till 13th. Should it be Cone of Cold or Hungry Pit?)
And Contingency as my second 6th level spell (at 13th). (I assume the first is the one I've been salivating over, Disintegrate, at 12th.)
One thing I note -- you have a lot of spells that overlap a lot.
Burning hands, scorching ray, fiery shuriken, fireball == all multiple-target/AoE fire damage.
Invisibility, invisibility sphere, greater invisibility = all do much the same thing.
You've got a lot of blasting spells (direct damage).
I would swap out the lower-level ones if possible (no swapping bloodline spells), and look for something that does something you don't already do, or something that's very flexible. Or for spells that have SR:No (it's only going to get worse at higher levels; there are some feats that can help, but you have not many feats and a lot of calls on them.) Instead of taking more blasting spells, work on using metamagic feats with existing spells -- if you need a 5th- or 6th-level blasting spell, use a Persistent Fireball or an Empowered Fireball or a Dazing Fireball. Wall of fire is nice because it doesn't just do fire damage, it blocks line of sight and hurts enemy archers/casters.
Consider having yourself, or another party member, learn resist energy -- that way you can throw area-effect spells around and your friends aren't damaged (or damaged much less).
You don't have any movement spells -- I'd consider something like fly, overland flight, teleport, or dimension door. Bypassing obstacles or encounters can be very effective.
Look for spells that serve multiple purposes -- stinking cloud is great because it debuffs enemies and blocks line-of-sight.
Look for ways to help your fellow party members, too. You've got some great buffs (stoneskin, albeit expensive; greater invisibility), but maybe some low-level long duration buffs would help -- cast them before combat and get their advantages without using precious in-combat rounds. Mage armor is a classic example.
My rule of thumb as a sorceror is to have, at each level, one offensive spell, one defensive spell, and one utility spell (useful for out-of-combat purposes, movement, etc.)
Feeblemind is a good anti-caster spell, but if you're not running into many casters maybe you want to reconsider it. Think about what sorts of spells have an equivalent effect on monsters you face frequently in the campaign...
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Who else is in your party?
In order to best suggest what spells you want, you need to consider A. What niche(s) you're wanting to fill with your spells, and B. What other niches are already taken with other spellcasters in the party (if any).
Until then, any spell is a good suggestion, because you're stuck with a generalistic approach, which means "I'll take anything," in which case offering advice is pointless, since any suggestion we give would result in "Yes."
I would replacing Invisibility Sphere OR Lighting Bolt with Haste, and Acid Arrow OR Fiery Shurikin with Glitter Dust.
Some of my favorite 5th level spells are Dominate Person (make bad guy join your team), Hungry Pit (drop opponents out of combat and deal damage every round), Roaming Pit (less initial damage and no damage over time, but you can move it around to remove more opponents from combat), Fire Snake (burn all your enemies and none of your allies even in close combat), Phantasmal Web (kind of like web but it cannot be destroyed and only affects your enemies). If Feeble Mind and Persistent Image have not helped you much you may want to trade them out for Fire Snake and Roaming Pit.
Some of my favorite 6th level spells are Contingency, Chain Lightning (like Fireball but better), Summon Monster 6 (Dire Tiger: charge + pounce + all attacks + rake + grad = frustrated GM (it can do all that in one full round)), Banshee Blast (untyped damage that may panic enemies, removing some of them from combat). I would suggest Summon Monster 6 first since since spell resistance is giving you trouble, and then work on getting Spell Penetration Feats in the future.
You may want to see about retraining to swap out Point-Blank Shop, Precise Shot, and Elemental Focus for Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Spell Specialization (evocation).
Anyways, this is your character so you do what you want and what you think will be fun.
relativemass, thanks for your help, too. Doing what I thought would be fun is what got me into this mess -- looking at a very few spells left to pick for most of my spell levels and too many good candidates. (Part of the problem is that my sorcerers in the past have been human taking the FCB, so I'm used to an extra couple of spells per level. Half-orc has been fun, but I won't do it again!)
I get a last 2nd-level spell still, so I'll follow yours and avr's rec and make it Glitterdust. As for Haste, I failed to mention that we have a bard in the party who likes buffs; I don't want to step on his toes.
What recs do you have for 3rd or 4th level? (Invisibility Sphere is indeed tradable: my party has preferred scattering with multiple separate spells, as it turns out. So that gives me an extra 3rd level.)
Incidentally, I found another spell I'd wanted for my "under consideration" list, but of course for the highly contested 4th-level slots: Rainbow Pattern. It's up against SR, but it stands a decent chance of taking several baddies clear out of a fight without killing them -- a consideration at times.
Persistent Image is odd, very odd -- but it's a bloodline spell, and so cannot be traded out. Feeblemind is also odd -- there's an exceptionally good chance that it won't be useful at all, and even if I'm up against a caster, that they'll have a good Will save. So I'd say I should trade it out, except that I have already completely tied up one nasty caster with it. (In fact, I took it as my "how to deal with casters spell.") Will negates, but it has a decent DC (22). I'll have a better idea of whether to trade it out by 12th level.
As for your 5th-level picks, Roaming Pit is sadly ineligible. As I said (buried in a spoiler), "I technically have only a few of the books on the PRD as sources, but I’ve had luck recently in pulling from other PRD books. So I’m willing to push the GM a little bit, to all the Advanced books and all the Ultimate books except Intrigue, besides Core." Roaming Pit isn't in any of those.
And the more I think about it, I think I can make an Intensified Selective Fireball do the work of Fire Snake, for all that a half-orc's eyes gleam when she thinks about casting the latter. Conversely, Dominate Person just doesn't seem like this character's cup of tea.
So for 5th level, that leaves me with Hungry Pit (no SR) and Phantasmal Web. How would you rate avr's "must" spell, Overland Flight? And why do you ignore Cone of Cold? (Assuming access to Rime Spell.)
As for your 6th-level picks, I'm noting them. Thanks!
I want to keep PBS (not really, but as a 'feat tax') & Precise Shot, because I shoot off rays a lot. My bloodline Fire Ray, Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow (possibly converted to fire), and in theory Fiery Shuriken (although I admit I haven't used that one much). Plus I'm looking at Enervation & Disintegration. And that generally means firing into melee, with a 1/2 BAB. I need to avoid that -4 penalty!
However, taking Elemental Focus (fire) instead of Spell Focus (evocation) was a mistake, because (a) it prevents me from reaching Spell Specialization at all and (b) it limits the evo spells it applies to greatly while not actually adding much in the way of non-evo fire spells. If the GM will let me retrain, I should. Unfortunately, as I said, there aren't any formal retraining rules in place. I'll ask him about it.
We tend to ignore cone of cold because you already have fireball, which is longer-ranged and much more versatile -- cones and lines mean you pretty much have to give the enemy a straight line to you to use them. A fireball with good metamagic is usually the go-to tool, unless you're up against something resistant/immune to fire, and Intensify Spell or Empower Spell gives you more damage than the 10d6 cap on 3rd-level spells.
Great! Lots of responses! Bad! I need to come up with traps & kobolds for a lair we're penetrating Friday night!
And I don't write posts quickly. So I'll settle for describing the party (besides me):
Rogue (classic) -- has been picking melee for the SA. Now that I can give her Greater Invis, I think she'll go ranged "pointy stick of death."
Wizard/Barbarian -- newbie player, with an old-school build that sticks her at 5th-level twice in a 10th-level game. I gave her a Belt of Giant-Sizing that I think will have her enlarging and wading into melee more than casting 2nd- or 3rd-level spells, but I can make some gentle suggestions. Perhaps utility spells that she can cast before combat makes her feel rushed... (Recommendations welcome, in fact. Fly on the rogue?)
Barbarian -- straightforward. His previous character was the cleric who rushed into melee with a mind flayer. In short, melee all the way, with a ton of damage potential.
Bard -- likes to support & buff (when playing this character), but just invested a lot of money into crit-farming in melee. And yes, he's our healer, what between spell picks & wands/UMD. (We have a terrible history in going through clerics, and gave up. Did I tell you one got eaten by a mind flayer? LOL) Despite his sudden interest in crit-farming, he wants to keep buffs as his territory.
Rogue (classic) -- GMPC, created I think for flavor, rather than party balance. More melee, aiming for SA from flanking.
And for everyone else... Thank you, and I'll be back -- if I'm good, though, not till this weekend. (We'll see. I'm tempted...)
Right, you've got rods for those lower level spells. Glitterdust and persistent go very well together BTW.
Disintegrate is an entirely reasonable first pick for your 6th level spells.
Overland flight is something I'd take immediately. Besides being a useful combat buff which you can cast hours in advance, it has utility uses out of combat and speeds up overland travel. If you do get it then yes, DDoor is not essential though getting DDoor at 13th still sounds good.
Black tentacles is good but less so at higher levels because CMD scales upward fast. Obsidian flow is probably better. Enervation is often disappointing IME. You might also consider acid pit if you can't fit hungry pit into your plans. And yes, rainbow pattern could be useful, though remember you have a rod of merciful spell for nonlethal stuff.
Dispel magic is very nice to have on hand, and stinking cloud will occasionally be useful to block line of sight or when you can spare a use of the persistent rod.
Tell the wizard/barbarian to look at the Eldritch Knight prestige class ;)
Tell the wizard/barbarian to look at the Eldritch Knight prestige class ;)
Or, he can just retrain all of those class levels into Bloodrager.
It's basically the same thing and power level as to what he has now, except it meshes so much better (and is a lot stronger) than what he currently is.
A lot of great suggestions. You also might consider Wall of Stone as a 5th level pick. I've found it to be an insanely versatile spell --- you can use it to create ramps, divert rivers, make outposts/fortified campsites, etc, and it's a great spell for battlefield control. Since it's a spell that's useful in pretty much any situation, it's a great pick for a class with a limited number of spells known, like sorcerers.
One other thing to consider: while Overland Flight is a great spell, it's less great for a sorcerer than a wizard, because it's a spell you only cast once per day. And after that you have to find something else to use the rest of your fifth level slots on, and it's unlikely that Feeblemind is going to come up that often... So a more versatile choice (Wall of Stone, Summon Monster V, etc) might be worth considering.
(Overland Flight is still an awesome spell though.)
One thing I note -- you have a lot of spells that overlap a lot.
Burning hands, scorching ray, fiery shuriken, fireball == all multiple-target/AoE fire damage.
Invisibility, invisibility sphere, greater invisibility = all do much the same thing.
You've got a lot of blasting spells (direct damage).
I would swap out the lower-level ones if possible (no swapping bloodline spells), and look for something that does something you don't already do, or something that's very flexible. Or for spells that have SR:No (it's only going to get worse at higher levels; there are some feats that can help, but you have not many feats and a lot of calls on them.) Instead of taking more blasting spells, work on using metamagic feats with existing spells -- if you need a 5th- or 6th-level blasting spell, use a Persistent Fireball or an Empowered Fireball or a Dazing Fireball. Wall of fire is nice because it doesn't just do fire damage, it blocks line of sight and hurts enemy archers/casters.
Consider having yourself, or another party member, learn resist energy -- that way you can throw area-effect spells around and your friends aren't damaged (or damaged much less).
You don't have any movement spells -- I'd consider something like fly, overland flight, teleport, or dimension door. Bypassing obstacles or encounters can be very effective.
Look for spells that serve multiple purposes -- stinking cloud is great because it debuffs enemies and blocks line-of-sight. [...]
My rule of thumb as a sorceror is to have, at each level, one offensive spell, one defensive spell, and one utility spell (useful for out-of-combat purposes, movement, etc.)
OK, I'm back, and hopefully so will you be! Thanks again for all the comments.
I wasn't sure if I'd start getting re-use out of Burning Hands w/ metamagic or not. Given the limited dice of damage, swapping it out for Protection from Evil seems better, and that would give me a 1st-level utility spell.
Invisibility Sphere isn't doing its job, just because the party doesn't want to stick together -- so out with the old, in with the new. I think I'll pick this one to swap out at 12th, so I need a plan for a new 3rd-level spell now (Stinking Cloud does look good) & another one at 12th. Btw, thanks to my over-done love affair with Invisibility, I'm not too far off from having a utility spell every level. I just need to get something a bit more varied here. Dispel Magic?
As part of the discussion here, I'm grabbing Overland Flight for 5th. Do you think I need D-Door too, or do you agree with avr?
And how do you sort through the many contenders for my last two 4th-level slots?
Dispel magic is never a bad pick; sometimes there are better ones, but being able to unmake enemy magical effects is nice. Only problem is that it's less useful against enemies with a higher caster level than yours.
Dimension door is a tactical movement spell, and the ability to bypass short-range obstacles, get out of traps and grapples, things like that. Very different niche than overland flight, which is essentially "I fly all the time and don't have to worry about the ground". Plus d-door lets you carry fellow party members with you. They're different enough that I would usually see no problem in taking both.
Protection from evil is a defensive spell, not a utility spell. It stays useful to very high levels (since casting it protects from ongoing mental control like dominate and might allow a second save).
For third level I might consider magic circle against evil, cloak of winds for anti-archery, displacement (50% miss chance is a great defense for you or your buddies, though there are ways to negate it in high-level play), heroism or rage (great and similar buffs, or mad monkeys for pure comedy value. Protection from energy might be useful if you face foes that throw lots of energy around, or for making your friends temporarily immune to your own fireball spells.
I'd recommend getting the Piercing Spell feat at 11th and retrain Elemental Focus to be Quick Draw. The reason for this, even though you have a Rod of Piercing Spell, is due to the inherent restriction of one rod per spell. So, always have the option for Piercing Spell on all of your spells.
I was sorting through feats early, as part of a major shopping trip. It's too bad you didn't notice that thread; I was specifically asking about Piercing as a feat or a rod. I'll have to ask the GM about retraining feats.
Monstrous Physique III can add +6 to hit, +7 AC, +15 to Stealth as a diminutive monstrous humanoid. You can also get flying out of it to.
Communal Spells are fabulous in and out of combat. Communal... Protection From Energy, Resist Energy, Darkvision, Stoneskin, Protection From Evil, etc. These can rapidly buff a party in a way that is complementary to your fellow bard.
Example: Communal Protection From Energy can not only protect from massive damage against the party, but it can also enable you to skip using Selective Spell on your spells. No one cares if you fireball the party for 50 damage if everyone bounces the first 132 fire damage.
I hadn't been aware of Communal spells. They're interesting... For instance, I might be better off trading Fiery Shuriken (which I just don't use) out for Protection from Evil, Communal than going after the 1st-level version.
However, while Monstrous Physique III would theoretically add a +4 Size bonus and a +3 Dex mod bonus (so +7 overall), there are regrettably NO diminutive or even tiny monstrous humanoids in the Global Bestiary Index.
Make yourself an orange ioun stone with Craft Wondrous Items. That will add +1 to getting past SR.
There is a one shot item (costs 500gp per) that adds +5 to getting past SR. Having a few of these on hand for emergencies should be easily affordable at 11th.
In summary, you have enough spell slots available as a sorcerer to cast a LOT of Piercing Scorching Rays. +17 to penetrate SR is decent. +18 with the orange ioun stone. +23 on emergencies with the one shot. I wager that will do you.
If that ain't enough, retrain Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot to Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. +22 on a normal basis and +27 for emergency should nigh guarantee your spells again.
If you do decide to go with Cone of Cold, look into using Liquid Ice as a material component for it. It adds +1 damage per caster level.
Yes, I need that Ioun Stone. It costs more than a store even in a metropolis will stock routinely, however, so I do need some downtime for crafting it. Thanks for the reminder that I want to do so.
I don't know of an SR-bullet one-shot, sadly, that is available in the books I can access -- hopefully Core, the Advanceds & the Ultimates (not counting Intrigue, which isn't in the PDR yet). I say "hopefully" because technically the GM gave us a shorter list, but lately he's been asking, "Is this on my tablet?" I don't want to say, "Sure, but it's on a 3rd party website."
Still, I can live with +16 or +17 for this level. And by the time I get Spell Penetration at 17th, I'll have +25 on most spells and +27 on my Perfected Spell (with Piercing Spell & the orange Ioun Stone), which should be good enough for the end-game, I'd think.
All the pits in the world.
Also summoning spells. But mostly I suggest pits.
Also icy prison is just a wonderful fifth level spell.
But so is hungry pit.
Well, what can I say. Icy Prison requires beating SR, and Hungry Pit does not. :)
And I really should learn sometime not to subject my friends to horribly bad placement of non-dismissable spells... Debnor has pointed out, actually, that taking a spell like this is the only way to learn battlefield control.
The one-shot in question is dweomer's essence, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
The closest thing to a tiny/diminutive monstrous humanoid is a flying monkey called a xiao. It's a tiny magical beast which would require beast shape IV.
If you ever get Ultimate Intrigue approved Fleeting Spell makes handling battlefield control much easier.
Right, you've got rods for those lower level spells. Glitterdust and persistent go very well together BTW.
Disintegrate is an entirely reasonable first pick for your 6th level spells.
Overland flight is something I'd take immediately. Besides being a useful combat buff which you can cast hours in advance, it has utility uses out of combat and speeds up overland travel. If you do get it then yes, DDoor is not essential though getting DDoor at 13th still sounds good.
Black tentacles is good but less so at higher levels because CMD scales upward fast. Obsidian flow is probably better. Enervation is often disappointing IME. You might also consider acid pit if you can't fit hungry pit into your plans. And yes, rainbow pattern could be useful, though remember you have a rod of merciful spell for nonlethal stuff.
Dispel magic is very nice to have on hand, and stinking cloud will occasionally be useful to block line of sight or when you can spare a use of the persistent rod.
Most of this stuff I'm noting down. The big thing I'm looking at from what you're saying here is that Obsidian Flow should be the first 4th-level now, and Rainbow Pattern or D-Door at 13th. (The reason I like Rainbow Pattern is that not only can enough nonlethal damage still kill, but it will let me lead an enthralled target where I want them.)
And Stinking Cloud over Dispel Magic.
A lot of great suggestions. You also might consider Wall of Stone as a 5th level pick. I've found it to be an insanely versatile spell --- you can use it to create ramps, divert rivers, make outposts/fortified campsites, etc, and it's a great spell for battlefield control. Since it's a spell that's useful in pretty much any situation, it's a great pick for a class with a limited number of spells known, like sorcerers.
It does look versatile. Thanks for putting it on my list, but probably after Overland Flight, not instead of it. (Despite that spell's long duration.) Of course, that puts you jousting with Create Mr. Pitt for that slot, since the lead other candidate at the moment is Hungry Pit!
Dispel magic is never a bad pick; sometimes there are better ones, but being able to unmake enemy magical effects is nice. Only problem is that it's less useful against enemies with a higher caster level than yours.
Dimension door is a tactical movement spell, and the ability to bypass short-range obstacles, get out of traps and grapples, things like that. Very different niche than overland flight, which is essentially "I fly all the time and don't have to worry about the ground". Plus d-door lets you carry fellow party members with you. They're different enough that I would usually see no problem in taking both.
Protection from evil is a defensive spell, not a utility spell. It stays useful to very high levels (since casting it protects from ongoing mental control like dominate and might allow a second save).
For third level I might consider magic circle against evil, cloak of winds for anti-archery, displacement (50% miss chance is a great defense for you or your buddies, though there are ways to negate it in high-level play), heroism or rage (great and similar buffs, or mad monkeys for pure comedy value. Protection from energy might be useful if you face foes that throw lots of energy around, or for making your friends temporarily immune to your own fireball spells.
LOL -- I'm so utterly not used to thinking of defensive spells, I don't even notice the difference between one and a utility spell! In that case, I've probably lost interest in PfE; I'd rather focus on attacks (damage or debuffs) & utility, given how few slots I have. I might have made an exception for Protection from Energy, Communal -- except that it's (naturally) a 4th-level spell!
Getting my twin brother the bard to teach me Blistering Invective is looking better & better. (As a swap for Fiery Shuriken.) Yes, it does mediocre fire damage, although I get my +5 extra, so it's not that bad. More importantly, though, it's got a DC of 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier, vs. my +20. (Fierce half-orc CHA-caster, doncha know.) For an area effect demoralize (shaken for 1 or more rounds). That's not precisely a Will save for brutes, but it seems close.
So, I'm sorry that I don't have time to read through the whole list, but as you are at a higher caster level, you might want to pick up as a damaging spell that is better then the fireball is irradate.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/irradiate
At the level you are at, it's a fort save to avoid taking 2d4 points of con drain. If you empower or maximise it, doing 8 points of con drain can pretty much drop anything you can hit to open combat with.
pad300 -- hopefully, I'm fixing your links. I'll take a look at them tomorrow, and try synthesizing.
A Quick Guide to Sorcerer Spell Selection
and maybe here
The Inner Power. A Guide for Sorcerers
and here
One last note before beddie-bye:
I will try to pitch Eldritch Knight to my newbie teammate. I had actually solicited opinions on Bloodrager for a beginner and turned around after rave reviews to suggest it to the GM (her father). He approved it... and then said that the player didn't want to lose the character. A prestige class may be the way she needs to go.
Blasting is good, buffing is good, but sometimes you need to be able to stop the enemy from annihilating your entire party...
My picks:
1st Level:
- Silent image is a must-have for its flexibility.
- Feather fall might save a friend's life
- Vanish is a great way to save a second level spot
2nd Level:
- Glitterdust is the must have here
- Mirror image is your best option and will be cast untill you die (or win the game)
- False life is a great "cast every morning then forget about it" option, especially of you're short on hit points.
- Burning Gaze is fun with a familiar. Awesome with a familiar and the dazing spell meta.
3rd Level:
- Haste if no one else can cast it
- Fly if you want to spare the 4th level slot of overland flight and/or if your teammates can't find a way to fly by themselves
- Dispel Magic till you can cast 6th level spells. Greater dispel magic is waaay better though
4th Level:
- Dimensional door is the most used defensive spell aside mirror image (your "get out of grasp for free" card). And a great tactical option.
- Enervation does what its name says to your DM's bosses. Encounter killer spell. Worth unbanning Necromancy school for a wizard by itself.
- Telekinetic charge: give your BFL (Big Front Liner) a free move and a free attack, reposition your healer as appropriate, send your archer on that ledge above the battle...They'll love you.
5th Level:
- Wall of stone. My favourite wall/portable bridge
Alternatively, you can opt for Wall of force, both are incredibly useful.
To deal with SRE you might wanna check the spells that ignore the problem. Telekinetic charge is a great example. You might also wanna check Cloud spells (Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud...), Summon spells (summon monster, summon swarm..) and Pit spells (Create pit, acid pit, hungry pit, spiked pit..)
And also:
Black tentacles
Flame Arrow
Sleet storm
Web
Geyser
Shifting sands
Stone call
Snowball
Thanks, Booloo, for your list. I'll be comparing it to what I've got so far come morning.
And pad300, I've reread the guides, and discovered the same thing I did the first time: despair.
Hence my thread about trying to fix my mess. But thanks for the links.
OK: I've achieved enlightenment.
Maybe not. But I do have a plan for 11th level -- the one I need for Saturday -- and some concrete ideas for my remaining picks for spells of up through 6th level.
Thanks to your help, my 11th-level picks will be...
So let me look at what I now have (after leveling to 11th) for saves & SR, as well as for function. Please bear with me; I'm learning here. And yes, I'm doing horrible things to the categories you think I need in the effort to focus down.
>> I have my lovely damaging spells, which I'm calling "blasts."
>> I'm grouping non-damaging attacks in general, including debuffs, into a category called "harmful."
>> For this character, in this state of disarray, I've decided to lump buffs, defenses, and utility spells all into one kitchen sink called "helpful".
Bloodline Powers Fire Ray (1d6+11 currently, incl. FCB, ranged touch, max 10x/day, SR: “yes”?);
Fire Resistance 20;
Efreeti Form (su, 11 rds (D), 1x/day, no flight).
Cantrips (9) Acid Splash; Detect Magic; Light; Open/Close; Prestidigitation; Ray of Frost; Read Magic; Resistance; Spark
1st level has Magic Missile (which I still have hopes for with metamagic; while it's subject to SR, it of course auto-hits w/ no save); Burning Hands is a 2nd blast, w/ Reflex for half & SR. And then I have 3 harmfuls which actually go up against each save: Break (SR vs. Fort), Grease (no SR vs. Reflex), and the Will one, Color Spray, which is admittedly largely useless by now (and takes SR). Finally, I have a helpful spell in Enlarge Person.
For my simplistic categories, I say: great.
2nd has Acid Arrow & Scorching Ray as no-save blasts (and Acid Arrow doesn't take SR); Glitterdust as a no-SR & Will-negates harmful; and Invisibility & Rope Trick as helpful. (I'm ignoring Fiery Shuriken here, which is scheduled for demolition.)
My grade: great.
3rd has the big blasts (Fireball & Lightning Bolt) w/ Reflex for half & yes to SR, and now two harmfuls (Slow & Stinking Cloud), one vs. Will & one vs. Fort. (I'm ignoring Invisibility Sphere, which is on the way out the door.)
My grade: Not-so-good; I'm missing a helpful spell here.
4th has two combo blast/harmful spells; one a Reflex for half w/ no SR (Obsidian Flow), and then another with no save but SR in Wall of Fire. (Both interestingly flexible -- and a challenge for me to use.) Plus it's got two helpful spells w/ Greater Invisibility & Stoneskin.
My grade: pretty good, but I itch to put a straight-up blast here.
5th has two harmful spells that get negated by Will (oops) in Feeblemind & Persistent Image (although the latter isn't vs. SR), and a helpful spell in Overland Flight.
My grade: terrible; I want to put a straight-up blast here, but I suspect a harmful spell that goes up against Fort might be better.
For starters, I want to confirm that my bloodline power is spell-like and is subject to SR.
Secondly, I want to know how I did on classifying my spells & grading each level. I should note humbly that my spell levels did much, much better due to the recommendations you all made!
Thirdly, I need a plan for leveling up through 14th or maybe 15th level (counting retraining), just for spells through 6th. For simplicity's sake, I'd like to take the level-11 spells I've picked as locked in stone now, and move on.
I think this is going to take a separate post. Thank you, however, just for getting me this far. I can level before Saturday's game, and come out with an almost-balanced spell list!
For starters, I want to confirm that my bloodline power is spell-like and is subject to SR.
Secondly, I want to know how I did on classifying my spells & grading each level. I should note humbly that my spell levels did much, much better due to the recommendations you all made!
Thirdly, I need a plan for leveling up through 14th or maybe 15th level (counting retraining), just for spells through 6th. For simplicity's sake, I'd like to take the level-11 spells I've picked as locked in stone now, and move on.
Let me put this a bit nicer, and thank you again just for all the helpful suggestions you all have made:
Can anyone confirm whether my bloodline power is spell-like and is subject to SR?
Secondly, how I did do on classifying my spells & grading each level?
As for thirdly, that's going to have to wait...
Your Fire Ray has the (Sp) quality, which means it's Spell-Like. It also means that if you're hit (such as from provoking for performing the action), you have to make a concentration check or the effect is lost (and also gives you the option to cast defensively so you don't provoke).
Thankfully, There is a FAQ that tells you how to calculate the concentration check required (if any), and for your Fire Ray, it's actually very easy at your current level.
Pretty good on classifying the spells. Keep in mind that 4th- and 5th-level blasts can be metamagicked 3rd-level ones instead of new spells.
Your bloodline power is an SLA and therefore subject to SR.
It seems to me that you have two big things to think about with new spell choices: first, "what do I need to do that I can't already do?" This will be important as you go up in levels; there will be things that someone in the party probably needs to do, whether it's you or another -- but, e.g., if you fight teleporting foes a lot dimensional anchor or some replacement for it needs to move up there. Second, "can I think of spells that work together well?" For now, just worry about 1-2 setups, not 1-2-3-4-5 chains that require everything to work out right. For instance, something that holds an enemy in place while (say) acid arrow gnaws at them (a very simple combination), or that removes defenses so your next spell can do more damage (e.g., dispel magic on their protection from fire).
Life bubble and stinking cloud are a great combo---your party members can waltz through the cloud untouched, while opponents in the cloud have to make fort saves each round or be nauseated. That said, Life Bubble is a 1/day spell that's better for prepared spellcasters, so something to encourage the party Cleric/Druid/Ranger to pick up instead if you can.
12th level: add a 6th level spell, swap one lower level spell.
There's nothing wrong with taking Disintegrate here. Time to change out Feeblemind tho', do you feel like Hungry Pit yet?
13th level: add one each 4th/5th/6th, bloodline spell Planar Binding
Contingency, Wall of Stone & Dimension Door are my suggestions here. Planar Binding, huh. I hadn't noticed this was coming. Can you get the wizard/barbarian to learn Magic Circle vs. {alignments} & maybe Dimensional Anchor?
14th level: add a 7th, swap one lower
There are some extremely versatile spells here. Limited Wish, Greater Polymorph, Greater Shadow Conjuration. If none of those appeal Caustic Eruption is an effective blast, Waves of Ecstasy is an effective debuff, Greater Teleport is of course useful. If the wiz/barb is allergic to Magic Circle you could swap a spell for it now maybe.
15th level: add one each 5th/6th/7th
It really depends what you got last level.
|
(Part of the problem is that my sorcerers in the past have been human taking the FCB, so I'm used to an extra couple of spells per level. Half-orc has been fun, but I won't do it again!)...
Your GM may have ruled differently, but human FCB options - including an extra spell per level for sorcerers - should be available to half-orcs. FAQ
Bitter Lily, do you have any fun metamagic feats you can add to some of your lower level spells to use up your higher level spell slots?
For example, an intensified lightning bolt or dazing magic missile for 4th level or an empowered fireball or extended greater invisibility for 5th level?
For versatile blasts, I recommend Dragon's Breath. Covering all four elements in flexible shapes makes it one of the best sorcerer blast spells out there.
For even more flexibility, take a look at Shadow Evocation. I'm currently playing a gnome shadow sorc with greater spell focus illusion, so my save DC is a bit higher than yours, but this spell is VERY good. Covers all kinds of blasts (including Dragon's Breath) and has some battlefield control options with Wall of Fire/Ice. Recently, I even took out a pretty powerful giant boss with it (via Resilient Sphere), giving us time to beat his goons before going for him.
You should probably also try to get rid of Feeblemind at some point. It does nothing against brutes and casters have a good will save. Against brutes, I'd take Hold Monster. Against casters, Telekinesis (ever pinned a mage who is 800+ ft away?). If you want to control a larger number of weak-ish enemies, Phantasmal Web can be pretty good.
Also, I personally think Point Blank and Precise Shot are wasted feats. You don't have nearly enough ranged tough spells to make them useful. I use Scorching Ray often and my Girlfriend's Oracle and Sorcerer hardly use anything else, ever. Neither has one of those feats and I can hardly think of more than one or two missed rays.
Your bloodline Arcana allows you to change any other element into fire. This means you should never take a fire spell unless you are getting it as a bloodline spell, in which case you have no choice. Consider picking up elemental spell to change the spells into another element. Then never pick a spell with that element. All your blast spells come from the other two elements. So now each spell can be cast with three different elements. If lightning bolt does not work then switch to fire bolt and if that does not work use cold bot. This also allows you to use your favored class bonus on because any spell can be fire.
Your Fire Ray has the (Sp) quality, which means it's Spell-Like. It also means that if you're hit (such as from provoking for performing the action), you have to make a concentration check or the effect is lost (and also gives you the option to cast defensively so you don't provoke).
Thankfully, There is a FAQ that tells you how to calculate the concentration check required (if any), and for your Fire Ray, it's actually very easy at your current level.
Uh, yeah. I have CL=11 + ChaMod=5 + MinDie=1 = 17, naked. (That is, without all the boosting items I've bought.) Against a DC of, why, 17! Thanks for the link to the FAQ!
I'm much more concerned with SR, where I just have CL=11, before I start playing around with my robe (+1 for fire) & piercing rod, and the DCs are likely higher.
Maybe retrain PBS & Precise Shot for Spell Penetration & Greater Spell Penetration?
Pretty good on classifying the spells. Keep in mind that 4th- and 5th-level blasts can be metamagicked 3rd-level ones instead of new spells.
Your bloodline power is an SLA and therefore subject to SR.
Oh, I am keeping it in mind. That's the biggest reason why I'm defending my rather constricted spell selections at 5th level, while placing the shaped explosives for retraining at lower levels. I'll be learning Empower Spell in just 2 levels, and what do you think an Empowered Fireball is? :) (Of course, if my melee-oriented teammates have their way, I'll actually need to make that an Empowered Selective Fireball -- something to think about.)
Thanks for confirming the bad news about SR on the bloodline power. Feh!
It seems to me that you have two big things to think about with new spell choices: first, "what do I need to do that I can't already do?" This will be important as you go up in levels; there will be things that someone in the party probably needs to do, whether it's you or another -- but, e.g., if you fight teleporting foes a lot dimensional anchor or some replacement for it needs to move up there. Second, "can I think of spells that work together well?" For now, just worry about 1-2 setups, not 1-2-3-4-5 chains that require everything to work out right. For instance, something that holds an enemy in place while (say) acid arrow gnaws at them (a very simple combination), or that removes defenses so your next spell can do more damage (e.g., dispel magic on their protection from fire).
I'll keep your advice in mind.
The party is awfully prone to killing off baddies in two combat rounds, so things like defenses or buffs that last rounds/level often seem pointless to me. (I'd ignored Invisibility, in fact, before the GM announced that he was somewhat un-nerfing the durations. Our Invis lasts 10 min/CL & Greater Invis 1 min/CL.) This also means that I'm often reluctant to "waste" a round on a set-up spell.
At the same time, we're at windier heights now. I haven't often gotten a character to 11th level, and I'm not used to things up here. Our participation in the last fight lasted three rounds -- I know, because my rod of Elemental (cold) got used up for the day in taking down the last Fire Giant. It may well be worth stretching myself in this sort of way in the future, so thanks for the advice. As for such a combo, the biggest need for one that I see has to do with using Stinking Cloud. The acid from Acid Arrow moves with the target! So what do I do to lock someone under a noxious cloud?
Life bubble and stinking cloud are a great combo---your party members can waltz through the cloud untouched, while opponents in the cloud have to make fort saves each round or be nauseated. That said, Life Bubble is a 1/day spell that's better for prepared spellcasters, so something to encourage the party Cleric/Druid/Ranger to pick up instead if you can.
Cleric, Druid, or Ranger, you say???? Well, we might have had a TWF ranger... Or a melee-oriented druid with a fierce animal companion... LOL, my description of our party is above. Clerics we've had, just not for long.
As it is, if I find myself using Stinking Cloud reasonably often, or NOT using it because everyone piled in on melee, I'll have to see if I can get a ranger or druid somewhere to make a wand of Life Bubble -- to hand to our UMD-specialist bard.
{Edit to stack on more mail:}
(Part of the problem is that my sorcerers in the past have been human taking the FCB, so I'm used to an extra couple of spells per level. Half-orc has been fun, but I won't do it again!)...Your GM may have ruled differently, but human FCB options - including an extra spell per level for sorcerers - should be available to half-orcs. FAQ
Wooo hooo! I think +5 to fire is enough. That gives me an extra spell now, at 11th -- an urgent pick -- of 4th or lower. Thank you thank you thank you.
Bitter Lily, do you have any fun metamagic feats you can add to some of your lower level spells to use up your higher level spell slots?
For example, an intensified lightning bolt or dazing magic missile for 4th level or an empowered fireball or extended greater invisibility for 5th level?
Yes, Selective now, plus Empower & Quicken at 13th as native. And a ton of metamagic rods. See my initial post, and for better formatting, the spoiler in the next post down, for the list. (Intensify wasn't available, but will be coming.)
Yeah, I saw you own all the metamagic rods in the world! ;-)
For versatile blasts, I recommend Dragon's Breath. Covering all four elements in flexible shapes makes it one of the best sorcerer blast spells out there.
I wanted this spell. Wanted it. But no one recommended it. Am I glad you've joined in on the party! Want something to drink?
For even more flexibility, take a look at Shadow Evocation. I'm currently playing a gnome shadow sorc with greater spell focus illusion, so my save DC is a bit higher than yours, but this spell is VERY good. Covers all kinds of blasts (including Dragon's Breath) and has some battlefield control options with Wall of Fire/Ice. Recently, I even took out a pretty powerful giant boss with it (via Resilient Sphere), giving us time to beat his goons before going for him.
I hadn't seen this spell. Interesting. And it's Core???? Wow. How does that work w/ helpful spells? Can an ally refuse to try to disbelieve I know Fly? What about if I try to cast "Fly" on myself this way?
This seems terribly like there ought to have been a FAQ. But I don't see one...
You should probably also try to get rid of Feeblemind at some point. It does nothing against brutes and casters have a good will save. Against brutes, I'd take Hold Monster. Against casters, Telekinesis (ever pinned a mage who is 800+ ft away?). If you want to control a larger number of weak-ish enemies, Phantasmal Web can be pretty good.
Also, I personally think Point Blank and Precise Shot are wasted feats. You don't have nearly enough ranged tough spells to make them useful. I use Scorching Ray often and my Girlfriend's Oracle and Sorcerer hardly use anything else, ever. Neither has one of those feats and I can hardly think of more than one or two missed rays.
Whether I have enough ranged touch or not depends on whether you look at my list of spells known or my list of spells cast. (I cast a LOT of Scorching Rays -- and they just got better. ) It also depends, I would think, on whether you have a party as heavy into melee as mine. I'm keeping the feats, sorry.
Speaking of feats, FYI, I'm going with Quick Draw as my 11th-level pick, and I'll talk to the GM about broadening Elemental Focus into Spell Focus (evocation). Without actual retraining rules in place, I don't know what'll happen.
As for the all-important plan, I'll get to it tomorrow -- if my head is working better. I'm coming down with something, and I haven't been up to more than chatting today. I'm so sorry, and I appreciate all the suggestions everyone has been making, I do!
The obvious candidates for my FCB spell this level are all 4th-level:
Dimension-Door (4th; SR you+)
Dragon's Breath (4th; SR y)
Enervation (4th, SR y)
-- avr, I'd love to hear why this is disappointing.
Rainbow Pattern (4th, SR y)