The logic behind the Humble Bundle and biting the hand that feeds you

[aceman67]

This post isn't saying that you guys shouldn't have done this second Bundle, donating to charity is a good thing, but I seriously have to ask, why?

You are hurting the brick and mortar stores by doing this, you're literally biting the hand that feeds you. The stores sell your product, sometimes at a loss to them, and then you sell hundreds if dollars of product for a mere fraction of the physical cost. That drives down demand and the stores can't sell what they have in stock.

Now, I admit, I bought the last Humble Bundle, it got me into Pathfinder, and I love it, the two FLGS I go to lost a lot of potential sales from the reduced demand. When I realized that, I immediately bought a physical core rule book and a beginners box despite getting both in the bundle. One owner was even told directly by a Paizo rep that you guys didn't anticipate that it would hurt retailers so much and would not do another Bundle again.

He believed you, and after a few weeks, things got better sales wise, and attendence for PFS is strong (we sit two tables of 5-6 people every week).

But the morning of the new humble bundle, he felt betrayed, and not just that store, but the only other one in town too.

Now they aren't keeping your product stocked anymore save for the core book and beginners box, the rest being special order.

You guys knew this would hurt the retailer, so again, why?

[Rysky]

It's my understanding that a lot of retailers have been at odds with Paizo from the very beginning for offering PDFs at all, that being said I don't really see how either bundle hurt retailers. Obviously don't have access to any numbers or staff comments so this is only my musings.

The bundle offers the PDFs, the retailers offer the physical books. If people were just wanting a cheaper option they could already do that by buying directly through the Paizo web store. The only thing the Bundle "hurts" would be Paizo's web store profits as the Bundle doesn't offer the physical books.

[GM Rednal]

I think it's worth carefully noting what's in the bundle.

The biggest books there from Paizo are the CRB, the Bestiary, the Technology Guide, and Ultimate Campaign. These contain content that is already available for free on the SRD.

The next big chunk of material is the Pathfinder Society pack - which I don't think are ever physical and sold in stores to begin with, so they clearly can't be a lost sale. That leaves the Strategy Guide, the Campaign Setting book, and one full Adventure Path as things that *might* have been sold in the store. Might. Plus comics, I guess, but I don't know how big those are for retail stores.

Judging by the whole Worldscape event they're doing, though... what I think is happening is that they're trying to get people's minds on sci-fi roleplaying (hence including Iron Gods, the Technology Guide, etc.) in preparation for the release of Starfinder later this year... something that, hopefully, will have a strong start and bring sales to physical locations.

[aceman67]

It comes from reduced demand. Physical retailers have to purchase the product (at a reduced cost from buying in bulk so they can make a profit). At this point, paizo had their money.

With a mark up, the stores sell, and make their money.

It something happens to demand, and they can't sell the product, they are stuck holding the bag.

Let me give you an idea of the kind of money stores lost out on from potential sales here from the last Bundle. Its not a full list, prices aren't accurate, but you'll get it.

Core $50
U.Magic $50
U.Combat $50
U.Equipment $50
Unchained $50
PFS Season 6 $100
Hells Rebels 1-6 $150
Beginners Box $50
Total $550

With the exception of PFS Sean 6 and Hells Rebels, my FLGS had multiple copies in stock.

Retailers pay for product up front, paizo gets their money first and the store makes theirs //IF// it sells.

He would wind up having to sell them at a loss at last year's local comic expo.

That's how reduced demand hurts retailers.

[Rysky]

But Paizo already sold PDFs on their web store, their main source of income is subscriptions and PDFs. So I'm not really seeing how giving away PDFs hurts brick and mortar stores, as that's not a part of the market they're involved in.

They sell the physical books. The humble bundle isn't modifying demand for physical books at all.

Edit: and your estimate that retailers are losing money from the bundle offering scenarios is flat out wrong, as Paizo doesn't sell/print physical copies of the scenarios at all.

[H2Osw]

I'm not a fan of PDFs and own every hardcover Paizo has produced. If however I wasn't sure about a book, being able to get my hands on a pdf for extremely cheap might also lead to me buying the physical book. How many people are like this I'm not sure.

If I was an owner of a store, I'd be more worried about the discount paizo gives for being a subscriber.

[captain yesterday]

If anything I'm more likely to go out and get the physical book if I can get the PDF for a dollar.

[GM Rednal]

There also isn't much that's really new in this Bundle, I think. Outside of the important Core books (which, again, are already available as lower-cost PDFs and for free), I think most of the physical sales of the other books there would've already happened - and since they're not particularly in-demand products (as I believe new releases are), reduced demand for a little while might not have that much of a real effect.

Of course, without hard numbers, it's difficult to be totally sure... but my feeling is that this probably isn't hurting physical retailers nearly as much as it might look like, and long-term, it may well end up helping them.

[Rysky]

*nods*

Yeah, the more I think about this the more I'm sure this doesn't really hurt retailers at all. Simply because if people were basing their potential purchase on saving money Paizo already offers that option through their own webstore by selling the PDFs of all their products.

Having a sale on said PDFs on another site would have no more repercussions against physical products than when Paizo has a sale on their own website. Which is to say none at all.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

aceman67 wrote:

Let me give you an idea of the kind of money stores lost out on from potential sales here from the last Bundle. Its not a full list, prices aren't accurate, but you'll get it.

Core $50
U.Magic $50
U.Combat $50
U.Equipment $50
Unchained $50
PFS Season 6 $100
Hells Rebels 1-6 $150
Beginners Box $50
Total $550

The first bundle only included the first 3 of the Hell's Rebels APs. I think many stores were already running low or totally out of stock for the Beginner's Box. Was Unchained even in the first bundle? (Edit: I just looked at my HB account and confirmed Unchained wasn't in the first bundle.)

---

I think the current bundle gives enough PDFs to whet the appetite/get them addicted for more products. While PDFs are handy and easier to carry, I still think most players and GMs prefer the print editions, and will pick them up whenever possible... often at the FLGS.

If I was a FLGS owner, I'd be much more worried and angry about Amazon's deep discounts.

[Rysky]

Yeah, Amazon sells at a loss.

[thejeff]

Rysky wrote:

Yeah, Amazon sells at a loss.

But they make it up in volume. :)

[Rysky]

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Yeah, Amazon sells at a loss.

But they make it up in volume. :)

*opens mouth*

*closes it*

[GM Rednal]

*Staaaaaaaaaare*

[Balancer]

Rysky, I think this sums up the point.
EDIT: Ninja'd

[aceman67]

I may not be a retailer, but I do know what it takes to run a business from being an assistant manager of a local restaurant when I was going through college.

You have to buy the product from the supplier up front, and then rely on sales to make that money back.

There's also other things you have to concider as well

Employee wages
Workers Comp insurance premiums
Rent
Utility bills
Taxes and licences (local, provincial/state, federal)
Upkeep and maintenance
And much more

If the product doesn't sell, product mind you thats already been paid for, you're stuck in the red until it does. Until then, all the above still has to be paid for.

Having product sit unsold on shelves costs money every day it goes unsold. Lights have to be kept on, employees have to be paid.

Then something like the bundle happens and demand for that product is gutted.

That hurts.

Then the supplier tells you it won't happen again.

Then it does.

That hurts even more.

Paizo's bread and butter is selling physical product, I'm pretty sure of that, otherwise they wouldn't go to treat lengths to make their books as quality as they are.

FLGS are the main sellers of those products, so undercutting them by hundreds of dollars, that hurts Paizo's relationship with retailers, and in turn retailers won't stock as much stock in case it happens again, especially if they've lied too.

[skizzerz]

Rysky wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Yeah, Amazon sells at a loss.

But they make it up in volume. :)

*opens mouth*

*closes it*

(relevant)

Anyway, I pretty much agree with what everyone else said; this doesn't impact the market for physical books meaningfully most likely. If the buyer was ok with getting a PDF instead of physical book, they could have already done so as the PDFs are cheaper than physical product. This bundle does nothing to change that fact. It may have an impact on the comics, that's about all I can think of.

Edit: triple ninjad. Typing on phone is hard :(

[captain yesterday]

I'm pretty sure subscriptions are mainly what keeps the suspenders on the barrels, so to speak.

[Rysky]

@acemen67

Paizo's "bread and butter" is selling subscriptions, not just the physical products.

The Humble Bundle has absolutely zero effect on physical products sales. Zero negative effect anyway.

Paizo sells their PDFs of their products on their own webstore, already far cheaper than the physical products. The Bundle isn't selling any of the physical Paizo products (they're selling comics I believe but that would be on Dynamite). The Humble Bundle and brick and mortar stores don't interact at all pretty much, as you could already, I repeat, you could ALREADY get Paizo PDFs cheaper than their physical counterparts from Paizo's own store.

[CrystalSeas]

aceman67 wrote:

Then something like the bundle happens and demand for that product is gutted.

That hurts.

Then the supplier tells you it won't happen again.

Then it does.

That hurts even more.

It's very sweet of you to worry about FLGS, but I think you've misunderstood how this works.

Paizo makes a lot of its products available online for free. Here's a list of what's in the link in the left column of this page:

It's called "Rules Archive (PRD)"
Rules Archive

Core Rule Book
Advanced Class Guide
Advanced Player's Guide
Advanced Race Guide
Bestiaries (all)
Game Mastery Guide
Monster Codex
Mythic Adventures
NPC Codex
Pathfinder Unchained
Occult Adventures
Ultimate Campaign
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Magic
Technology Guide

All. For. Free. 24 hours per day. 7 days per week.

Any gaming store owner who doesn't know that before they order physical product is inept and probably will go out of business in short order.

Now, for the stuff that isn't free.

Gaming Stores do not sell PDFs.
PDFs are cheaper to buy than physical product.

Again, any gaming store owner who doesn't know that before they order is inept. Paizo's business model already undercuts the price of the physical product by selling the PDF as a stand-alone product.

Cheaper. 24 hours per day. 7 days per week.

So, when Paizo gives a huge discount on PDFs that your FLGS does not sell and on items that are available on the web For Free from Paizo it seems to me that the gaming store owner is not impacted at all.

The things people buy from gaming stores are not included in the Humble Bundle.

[Steve Geddes]

aceman67 wrote:

Then something like the bundle happens and demand for that product is gutted.

It is unquestionably true that providing PDFs (at any price) reduces demand for the physical product. Similarly, offering a super deal, together with perks via subscription will reduce demand for the product. However, you're neglecting the fact that it also increases demand. You said yourself that the first humble bundle is what got you into pathfinder - so the print copies you bought from those FLGS are an increase in demand that they wouldn't have seen without the humble bundle. There are also people who buy the cheaper PDF first and then, if it's the kind of thing they like, go out and buy the hardcopy.

Similarly, you say that PFS numbers at the shop are strong - how many of them were brought in by the humble bundle sale? Those newcomers are now regular visitors to the store week-in, week-out - that kind of repeat patronage is very valuable to the FLGS, provided they can find something to sell to them (whether it's PF hardcovers, magic:the gathering cards or whether it's heavily marked up soda doesn't really matter).

You're right that online sales of PDFs have a negative effect, but they have a positive effect too - it's more complicated than "humble bundle = reduced demand".

Taking the broader view, FLGSes need to adapt to the evolving nature of gaming (including the rise of PDF sales versus physical sales and the rise of online shopping vs face-to-face shopping). It's not unique to them either - online stores have a low-cost advantage over physical stores in pretty much any industry.

Yearning for the 20th Century model (much as I'd personally prefer it) isn't going to help them survive. They need to work out what they can provide more efficiently and effectively than what online retailers can provide, not hope that online shopping doesn't continue to grow or that publishers will stop providing books in electronic format.

[rknop]

The one thing I wish Paizo would do is something like the "Bits and Mortar" program lots of indie publishers participate in. You buy a physical book at a FLGS, you get the PDF for free.

[Steve Geddes]

Something Wizards of the Coast has done recently (apart from not releasing PDFs of current edition books) is to release special-edition-FLGS-only versions a week before Amazon and other online sellers can ship the regular copy.

Wouldn't really work with Paizo's subscriber model, I guess.

[Drogon]

I'm a retailer. I own two stores in Colorado. One has been open over 10 years, the other is now in its second full year of operation.

I can say with certainty that the last Humble Bundle actually *created* sales for my business. Additionally, the existence of their PDFs often close the deal on sales of the RPG hardcover line (by "close the deal" I mean that they are the difference maker when making a sale). And I have already seen a bump in Pathfinder sales as a result of this Humble Bundle, as well.

My statement, obviously, is anecdotal. But I'm pretty confident in saying that I'm one of the largest game retailers in the mountain region (two of the largest, actually). I use a POS system that tracks all my data and inventory, and I watch it obsessively for trends. Pathfinder RPG sales have certainly slowed since the launch of 5th Edition. But that is definitely attributable to different things than Paizo's sale of PDF product. And, at least as far as I'm concerned, the two biggest "up-ticks" in Pathfinder sales I've seen have coincided with Humble Bundle traffic.

Also, a bit of a nit-pick here: Paizo does not have reps for stores. No retailer buys directly from Paizo. They sell through distribution and let their distributors handle all their product movement. Paizo does not share their sales trends with anyone. Ever. And speculating on how a promotion of theirs may have hurt brick and mortar stores and what the future repercussions of that would be is not something I've ever seen Paizo do. In other words, I have serious doubts about whether your store owner spoke with anyone at Paizo about any of this.

[Steve Geddes]

Drogon wrote:

Paizo does not have reps for stores. No retailer buys directly from Paizo. They sell through distribution and let their distributors handle all their product movement. Paizo does not share their sales trends with anyone. Ever. And speculating on how a promotion of theirs may have hurt brick and mortar stores and what the future repercussions of that would be is not something I've ever seen Paizo do. In other words, I have serious doubts about whether your store owner spoke with anyone at Paizo about any of this.

Thanks for mentioning that. It was a surprising part of the story - I wondered whether it was the distributor telling the retailer what they wanted to hear.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

rknop wrote:

The one thing I wish Paizo would do is something like the "Bits and Mortar" program lots of indie publishers participate in. You buy a physical book at a FLGS, you get the PDF for free.

Agreed. Perhaps a sticker in each book with the written Paizo url and a QR code, then a little redemption code for the PDF (like the one in the Humble Bundle) under a scratch-off film (like on a scratch-off lotto ticket), so if you buy the book used, you know it's already been redeemed for the PDF. I'd think Paizo could even raise the cost of the PDF prices a bit to offset the extra costs involved.

But I am not Vic, Lisa, Paizo's bookkeeper, or Paizo's production department, so take my input with a small boulder of salt peppermint.

[Majuba]

Drogon is definitely the voice to listen to here (although the OP's store owners certainly should be listened to as well), but I had to correct the math:

aceman67 wrote:

Core $50 $10

U.Magic $50 $10
U.Combat $50 $10
U.Equipment $50 $10
Unchained $50 $10
PFS Season 6 $100 $0 {not relevant at all}
Hells Rebels 1-6 $150 $108
Beginners Box $50 $10
Total $550 $168

Whether a PDF is a replacement for a physical book or not, they were already an option at almost $400 less, without the bundle. Getting that $168 value at $15 leaves a whole lot more cash for people to actually buy the physical books they want (and maybe wouldn't have wanted beforehand).

[Steve Geddes]

Majuba wrote:

Drogon is definitely the voice to listen to here (although the OP's store owners certainly should be listened to as well), but I had to correct the math:

aceman67 wrote:

Core $50 $10

U.Magic $50 $10
U.Combat $50 $10
U.Equipment $50 $10
Unchained $50 $10
PFS Season 6 $100 $0 {not relevant at all}
Hells Rebels 1-6 $150 $108
Beginners Box $50 $10
Total $550 $168

Whether a PDF is a replacement for a physical book or not, they were already an option at almost $400 less, without the bundle. Getting that $168 value at $15 leaves a whole lot more cash for people to actually buy the physical books they want (and maybe wouldn't have wanted beforehand).

Another good point.

[Val'bryn2]

As another point, I have recently started buying pdfs and the humble bundle packs when they look useful, and I still make regular purchases at my FLGS to buy the things that are worthless as pdfs, such as the flip-mats, map packs, pawn sets, etc.

[Sundakan]

The most important point, I think, is that even if these sales DID hurt brick and mortar stores...that's not really Paizo's problem. They're a business, and businesses need to do what's best for themselves, not other businesses. It is not Paizo's business to keep YOUR business IN business, ya feel me?

It's not like Paizo is over here being the big bad small business crusher and purposefully doing things to destroy your business. If something as simple as running an online sale, for charity no less is destroying your store, then you have much, much, MUCH bigger problems that YOU need to be sorting out to try and make your business viable. Because a business that can't survive a freakin' sale is not a viable business to begin with.

[rknop]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Something Wizards of the Coast has done recently (apart from not releasing PDFs of current edition books)

This -- not releasing PDFs of current edition books -- is why I haven't seriously checked out 5e. I would probably have purchased at least the player's handbook at a FLGS... except that I know I can't get a legal PDF of the core rulebooks. If I'm ever going to play the game, I don't want to haul large numbers of heavy rulebooks any more. I want PDFs. Without PDFs, a new game is dead to me.

So Wizards' refusal to release PDFs has cost them and FLGSes sales from at least me. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[rknop]

Sundakan wrote:

The most important point, I think, is that even if these sales DID hurt brick and mortar stores...that's not really Paizo's problem. They're a business, and businesses need to do what's best for themselves, not other businesses. It is not Paizo's business to keep YOUR business IN business, ya feel me?

Well... except that it is Paizo's problem after all. Not for charity reasons, but just for enlightened-self-interest reasons. Longer term, the loss of FLGSes will hurt (kill?) the hobby altogether, which would be bad for Paizo.

[DragoDorn]

I already had mostly everything in this bundle but the comics,Iron Gods,and the Pathfinder Society Season 5 scenarios. I bought the previous bundle too,even though I already owned most of the content. My motivations to help these charities involved will not hurt my local game store,which is where I buy almost all of my non-pdf items.

[Pan]

I like the idea of a free PDF code with hardcopy purchase, but please dont raise PDF prices to do it. I'm a PDF only guy now. Id consider buying cards at an FLGS for PDF codes but it might be more trouble than its worth.

On a side note, I think all kinds of businesses are hurting because of the emergence of online retail. The future is in service and differentiation. Brick and mortar stores have to offer you an experience that you cant get with an online purchase. Its nice if publishers don't kick small business in the pants, but they are not responsible for keeping them in business either.

[captain yesterday]

As someone that works in a retail store. I object to the PDF code thingy.

It's the first thing a%~!+*+s will steal.

Edit: And it doesn't matter if they can't redeem it. People will steal it JUST to be a%%$&@$s.

[Rednal]

What if you had a system that allowed you to get a code from a Paizo server and print it directly on their receipt after they bought the product?

[captain yesterday]

Trust me, do you know how many boxes of Jenga Gold we had broken into. Despite the warnings on the front announcing there was no real gold.

[Rednal]

Yeah, there are always some people who behave in... less than appropriate ways. I was just remembering something fairly similar done with video game stores (letting you get DLC codes on your receipts), and that seemed like a good way to offer PDFs while discouraging people from trying to steal codes from the books.

(Whether or not it's practical is something I don't actually know...)

[captain yesterday]

Might work, seems kinda unnecessary, and not worth the headache.

[captain yesterday]

I myself anxiously await the day Paizo has their own stores (in select cities) like American Girl, so I can get the full experience.

They could even have a bar where all the bartenders where Cosmo nametags.

And bouncers dressed as tooth fairies.

[Rysky]

captain yesterday wrote:

I myself anxiously await the day Paizo has their own stores (in select cities) like American Girl, so I can get the full experience.

They could even have a bar where all the bartenders where Cosmo nametags.

And bouncers dressed as tooth fairies.

... please?

[Garrett Guillotte]

captain yesterday wrote:

I myself anxiously await the day Paizo has their own stores (in select cities) like American Girl, so I can get the full experience.

They could even have a bar where all the bartenders where Cosmo nametags.

And bouncers dressed as tooth fairies.

Temple of Cayden gaming brewpub chain.

[Odraude]

Yeah, considering the majority of their rules can be found for free for the better part of a decade, I don't see this affecting more FLGSs unless all they sell are RPGs.

Which is foolish. You need to diversify and sell other things as a FLGS. Most focus on wargaming and Magic for that very reason, to keep the lights on. But if you can't adapt to the changing demands in the market, then you are doomed to fail. It sounds harsh, but that's the life of running a business. Adapt or die. No one is going to hold your hand and help you. It's what I've learned opening up restaurants.

[knightnday]

It also depends on your FLGS. The closest one to where I live, actually in town, doesn't carry much at all of Paizo's products -- they have a much larger clientele that is after Magic, Pokemon, YuGiOh, and various miniature games than RPGS.

The stores 40 miles away in Colorado Springs are hit and miss. Some carry the most recent products and perhaps the last few months, but little more than that. The other two carry little to none. And the Pathfinder Battles products are hardly carried at all because, according to the sales people, they weren't selling.

So, very little the Humble Bundle sold would have been on the shelves anyway in those stores, so no sales are lost -- unless you want to special order. And why would I do that when I can use a computer perfectly well and order directly from Paizo or any of dozens of internet establishments.

[AnimatedPaper]

rknop wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

Something Wizards of the Coast has done recently (apart from not releasing PDFs of current edition books)

This -- not releasing PDFs of current edition books -- is why I haven't seriously checked out 5e. I would probably have purchased at least the player's handbook at a FLGS... except that I know I can't get a legal PDF of the core rulebooks. If I'm ever going to play the game, I don't want to haul large numbers of heavy rulebooks any more. I want PDFs. Without PDFs, a new game is dead to me.

So Wizards' refusal to release PDFs has cost them and FLGSes sales from at least me. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Nope, you're not. I'm genuinely starting to hate physical books, I can't remember the last time I purchased a dead tree copy of anything besides my monthly adventure path. And I only purchase that because I can't subscribe to the pdfs all on their own.

I got rid of 2/3s of my library several years ago, and I'm eyeing the remainder before I move again in a couple months. I figure at least a quarter of it can be donated, not least my 3.5 collection.

[TriOmegaZero]

I too am one that has avoided 5E in large part because there is no digital support. My GM ragequit over it.

Majuba wrote:

Drogon is definitely the voice to listen to here (although the OP's store owners certainly should be listened to as well)...

Yeah, Drogon addressed all the points I was going to make. I think the OP has a point that many people will not buy the physical product after getting the bundle, but I believe the number of new people who would never have bought a hardcopy before and will not head to their FLGS for products not in the bundle will be greater than the first group.

[Sundakan]

rknop wrote:

Sundakan wrote:

The most important point, I think, is that even if these sales DID hurt brick and mortar stores...that's not really Paizo's problem. They're a business, and businesses need to do what's best for themselves, not other businesses. It is not Paizo's business to keep YOUR business IN business, ya feel me?

Well... except that it is Paizo's problem after all. Not for charity reasons, but just for enlightened-self-interest reasons. Longer term, the loss of FLGSes will hurt (kill?) the hobby altogether, which would be bad for Paizo.

I'd like to see the data on that. I don't see the loss of game stores killing the TRPG hobby any more than the loss of book stores would kill the reading hobby.

Both are available from other venues cheaper and more conveniently. Neither rely on the physical location to experience.

TRPGs were always a niche hobby, but it has grown exponentially since the internet became widespread. Which says to me that the players (new players especially) drawn in by these stores is only a fraction of players nation and world-wide.

[thejeff]

Sundakan wrote:

rknop wrote:

Sundakan wrote:

The most important point, I think, is that even if these sales DID hurt brick and mortar stores...that's not really Paizo's problem. They're a business, and businesses need to do what's best for themselves, not other businesses. It is not Paizo's business to keep YOUR business IN business, ya feel me?

Well... except that it is Paizo's problem after all. Not for charity reasons, but just for enlightened-self-interest reasons. Longer term, the loss of FLGSes will hurt (kill?) the hobby altogether, which would be bad for Paizo.

I'd like to see the data on that. I don't see the loss of game stores killing the TRPG hobby any more than the loss of book stores would kill the reading hobby.

Both are available from other venues cheaper and more conveniently. Neither rely on the physical location to experience.

TRPGs were always a niche hobby, but it has grown exponentially since the internet became widespread. Which says to me that the players (new players especially) drawn in by these stores is only a fraction of players nation and world-wide.

Hard numbers are hard to come by, but I'm pretty sure TRPGs haven't grown exponentially since the internet. As I understand it, the height of the hobby was in the AD&D years.

[Gorbacz]

Sundakan wrote:

TRPGs were always a niche hobby, but it has grown exponentially since the internet became widespread. Which says to me that the players (new players especially) drawn in by these stores is only a fraction of players nation and world-wide.

They didn't. The halcyon glory days, the almost-mainstream days of RPG were the 80s.

These days, the pen and paper RPG market in the US and Canada (which amount to 80% of the global market in this case) is 35m USD, while board games and miniature wargames are at 160-175m each while the big kahuna, the CCGs, are at 625m USD.

To give you the idea of how the p'n'p RPGs are going over the years, the market in 2003 was 35m USD, which adjusted for inflation is 45m of today's USD. In 1982 TSR alone was pushing around 50m of today's USD worth of RPGs. That's just TSR, not counting Steve Jackson, West End Games and all the other major companies which, welp, don't exist any more (except for Chaosium who signed a pact with Outer Gods and continues to live on forever). In 1985 it was 30m USD for TSR which is equivalent to 67m USD today.

Now the RPGs got a major bump last year thanks to D&D 5E, but they still are a fraction of other hobby gaming types and much less than they were back a decade ago.

Oh, all my numbers are from ICv2 and various "History of TSR" articles as well as Lisa's old posts on her stint of assessing just why did TSR go bottoms up.

[Sundakan]

Hm, guess I was wrong. It definitely FEELS more "mainstream" than it ever did.

Still, it's hard to figure how much FLGSes figure into that since from what I understand Magic the Gathering and other CCGs are what bring them the bulk of their revenue anyway, and they're still struggling to stay open.