So we had a character creation session for rise of the runelords last night, a week before which I said I'd be rolling up krugthunk the orc barbarian of hitting things really hard. I get there last night and our newer player says he's rolling up a cavalier, two front liners, I can deal with that. my buddy to my left then goes "im rolling up a monk or a fire kineticist" ... okay, three primarily damage dealing characters, well maybe the cleric and the wizard can make up for it. Our regular cleric then announces "I dont want to play a cleric again, I'm rolling up a fighter" and I wanted to smash my recently surgically repaired head into the table because the last time this guy played a martial, he basically just ran into every fight head first and immediately got downed because he has no defense, no damage and no idea how to play a martial. Everyone said "well you don't have to switch" but when we're looking down the barrel of a party that has basically no useful skills and no useful magic, I feel like switching made me the only sane person in the room.
So now I've essentially said screw it, I'm rolling up an illusion focused arcanist with a bunch of face skills, not because I wanted to, but because I just couldn't get anyone to work with me on roles except the one guy who wasnt there that night who texted "I'll fill" which might be our only saving grace. How do you deal with this type of thing?
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What I do isn't too helpful for you sadly but I think you'll find a few people giving the same answer, I have a folder of about 15 characters built for varying roles, all of which I'd be happy to play. So there is always a character to fill a role that needs filling
Our group just roles with it. Usually someone gets tired of getting their face handed to them or tired of the character and switches to something else. Plus our GM ADORES adding tons of NPC's to the party so generally we always have all bases covered.
Not sure that will help you out but I say play what you want. A good GM will cater the game to what the players want to play.
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My group is the reigning champion of so far out of balance it ain't even close to funny. So our group dies, quickly and often until they get their collective heads out of their collective @$$es. Then they start to pull it together. Sometimes pain is the best educator. Though the hybrid classes help with this. Cleric wants to front line, offer warpriest. Swap barbarian for bloodrager. Kineticist has some nice utilities so don't count it out yet. And cavalier can face for the party if built right.
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This venue can give you lots of advice for rules and mechanics.
Social issues though, you're on your own.
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I find non balanced parties more entertaining. It's fun to try to overcome your weaknesses in creative ways. Give it a try. You might enjoy it. And if you don't, every group needs one or two sessions they've sworn to never speak of.
Gilfalas is right if your party has no wizard/cleric and the GM gives you a problem you need a cleric wizard to solve that's him working against the party.
Unfortunately, most published APs have the assumption that the party has the bases covered.
If I were you, I'd roll a healing patron witch. You get a good bit of condition removal with control abilities.
If its homebrew, then yes, the GM can adaapt.
What you're ignoring is that the OP is having the classic problem of "I don't want to be the healer...AGAIN!".
I say role with it. Play the barbarian. Either your GM is good enough that it won't matter or (s)he isn't. If (s)he is good enough, then a party of all martials will be something fun and different. If (s)he isn't good enough then you'll likely get your @%$%$ handed to you fairly early and you can all roll new characters. As long as you're not expecting to be unstoppable it'll likely be fun either way.
(I'm not trying to rag on the GM here, but this is something that an inexperienced GM likely won't be able to handle so well)
Honestly, yeah, I say make a martial like everyone else. When the group crashes and burns, tell them to rethink their life choices.
EDIT: By the way - in all honesty, an all martial party can be really fun and interesting. If the GM edits the challenges to suit this, even moreso.
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Have this conversation with your group before you start. If you're annoyed by their choices now, it will only get worse from here.
Or play a Juju mystery Oracle. Decent skills, good HP and armor proficiencies, with expanded class skills (Bluff, Intimidate etc) and some enchantment spells added to the list.
Just don't take any cure spells as known spells and get martials to buy you a wand for post-fight healing.
And if the martial meat shields live to 10th, you can raise them as juju zombie minions when they eventually kick the bucket. 50gp per HD is way cheaper than raise dead, and they get to roll up a new character too!
More seriously... I know the pain. There are a number of players I know who will generally go "I WANT TO PLAY <INSERT CLASS> NAO!" on a spur of the moment whim, and then be utterly inflexible and unwilling to consider "You know, we'd live longer if..." as a valid argument as to why they should rethink their poorly thought-through snap decision.
And every time I (or another player) has attempted to 'do the right thing' and make a different character from what they intended... I/they regretted it. Usually because the spur-of-the-moment character wound up morphing to be either not what they pitched, or it ran off on a tangent and died in a corner somewhere, or they just ditched it and arrived at Session 1 with a completely different character.
So now, if I'm made my preference known ahead of time, and three other people want to make something similar on the day, I don't budge. I also don't presume it'll be a total disaster - it's usually worth giving it a shot to see if it works.
Facetious, and also oracles get the cure spells for free as they level. Or inflict, if you're a monster.
Why did you pick illusionist arcanist? What's fun about those choices for you?
Witches are not healers. They're debuffers.
But seriously someone had better be able to use the CLW wand, or something bad is going to happen...
Hey! Witches can also make great buffers!
In general, though, I have to second your main point... There's other class choices that will work, too, besides healer-patron witch (especially hedge witch).
{Seconding Arbane the Terrible, too:} PF bards can be decent at melee, and have enough healing for this spec, as an example. (Especially if one of their skill pts gets plugged into UMD every level for the condition-zapping spells not on the bard list, which is what the bard-as-healer in my playing group has done.) And talk about useful skills!
Alternatively, skald (from the UCG) might appeal to the OP even more -- but I don't know how the class plays.
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I find non balanced parties more entertaining. It's fun to try to overcome your weaknesses in creative ways. Give it a try. You might enjoy it. And if you don't, every group needs one or two sessions they've sworn to never speak of.
This! Why not try a game where you're all martial? The beauty of tabletop RPGs is that the GM can customize the game to your party. Your DM is presumably not a robot that will simply leave you stuck because you don't have the spell necessary to unlock the door to the next room. You'll simply have to get inventive to deal with all the arcane s@!% he throws at you. Issues like lack of healing can be worked around, either through frequent rests, liberal potion supplies, or even hiring an NPC cleric.
Or, failing that, you'll keep dying until the party balances out, and may the best martial win.
If you do decide to go with an all martial party, you could still fill a support role. Freebooter/Trapper Ranger or a Halfling focused around Aid Another (the Helpful Trait) make fine starting points. You could also consider a Dirty Trick Fighter (orc archetype, so usable by half-orcs) and be rude as can be. I think Dirty Trick/Lore Warden is doable.
You could also consider whether the party has a ranged component yet. If not, there's a build for that.
I vote you go all martial.
I used to be like you, OP
then I just started playing what I wanted to play
and consequently had a lot more fun with people I like to have fun with
First, thanks everyone for all the responses. I probably wouldn't be so concerned if this were a homebrew campaign, We've already played through Wrath of the Righteous with nothing but sorcerer casters and that AP had several moments of "oh you can't cast X spell at odd level? welp too bad so sad come back later" so I shudder to think what APs would do to a party without any casters...
I'm glad to see so many people telling me to stick with it, although I admit I mostly wanted to roll martial because I don't get out of bed for anything lower than 3rd level and just wanted to sleepwalk through the early game doing obscene damage and tanking all the hits.
Why did you pick illusionist arcanist? What's fun about those choices for you?
Mostly being able to drop pretty much everything with a DC 22 Color Spray (DM is running a bunch of unchained optional rules, including overclocked spells, which I can auto-hit for color spray on a 1 with a +12 spellcraft at level 1, that plus my 22 Int, spell focus, arcane point and spell specialist archetype, results in derpage), but also the character is just a dirty cantankerous old man who uses silent image and ghost sound to mess with people in really strange and cruel ways.
I've run through a bunch of other ideas as well, but none of them really panned out because I felt like I was trying to do to many things at once.
Bard was on the table, but I couldn't really find a decent balance between being HealBuff-O-Matic and actually hitting things because in the long run all my feats go to doing one or the other, I don't get enough to do both.
I thought about doing combat cleric, but the last time I played a cleric I was really unhappy with it because even though it did damage I still ended up having to play party mom trying to keep my allies alive because they seem to think I just have bottomless healing and they can be dumb and reckless.
There might be some builds out there that give me what I want, guess I'll have to keep brewing and maybe try to talk things out with my group a bit more.
Well, if you want to play a non-healbot bard, you could see about grabbing buffs that last 10 minutes/level and grabbing some control spells - but no heals. If someone wants heals, they can buy you a wand of cure light wounds.
A Bard whose spells at level 1 are chosen from Sleep (which allows Coup de Grace), Chord of Shards, Saving Finale, and Grease has a lot to do within combat that doesn't involve straight-up healing. Sleep and Grease, for instance, take a single round to get working, and then you can hack-and-slash to your heart's content. Saving Finale is usable during your rounds, and Chord of Shards is good and blasty.
Then you can grab Heroism later, which lasts 10 min/level, along with Gallant Inspiration - one being a popular buff that'll be cast before fights happen, another not limiting your attacks per round thanks to being an immediate action.
With the right spell choices, you SHOULD be able to focus on smashy-smashy with your feats. Pack a wand for healing, use your spells for quick bursts of awesome in-combat or for out-of-combat utility and pre-fight buffing. You might consider grabbing Silent Image or Major Image later. Good Hope could be useful, since Inspire Courage is a competence bonus.
For archetypes, you might consider the Archaelogist, but I feel as if the standard bard will be great with your group anyway. There's also the Archivist, which I love, but while the extra AC is nice, not having extra damage from Inspire Courage is not nice. (You get Attack and AC as an insight bonus instead of Attack and Damage as a competence bonus.) You probably know how to build a fighty bard well enough already, so I won't suggest anything there (others probably build them better than I do anyway).
In the event you're open to other suggestions, I'm playing a melee Shaman through ROTR right now, and it has been a ton of fun to play -- very versatile. I use the Speaker for the Past archetype and the Battle spirit.
Key features:
- Main stat is STR, followed by WIS and CON.
- Uses a two-handed reach weapon and combat reflexes, so decent damage output, combined with usual AOO tactics inherent in a reach build. I chose Human, but by playing a Half-Orc you could instead go with a falchion or greataxe.
- Spells are primarily used for self-buffs, or other problem solving. Nothing that requires a DCm basically. The Shaman list isn't great, but it has lots of hidden gems and the ability to add some Cleric spells via FCB really helps round it out.
- Gets access to the key condition removal spells (which every party needs, realistically), though I don't prepare them ahead of time most days (though I usually leave an open slot per level to fill with stuff like this on demand).
- Can use the group's wand of cure light wounds, but doesn't channel energy or spontaneously cure, so your party won't necessarily look to you as a heal bot (you can set those expectations pretty early via playstyle as well).
- The Battle spirit gives you access to Enlarge Person and some decent hexes, plus whatever other hexes you might want from the typical Shaman list (Fortune and Chant were quite useful at lower levels). I personally enjoyed getting the Flight hex (via Witch Hex) to have frequent access to supernatural flight at early levels, something the other martial-oriented characters have been quite envious about I think.
- You also get revelations off the Time and Ancestor oracle mysteries, which give you things like Temporal Celerity for a great initiative boost, Time Hop for mobility/grapple escape, etc.
At early levels I kept up with the primary martials in melee for the most part (so you can auto-pilot those levels if you like), and at later levels the buffs could help keep pace in melee, while also offering a host of other options and utility. I'm kind of the 'bag of tricks' guy, bringing out new stuff all the time, and solving a lot of problems that way.
If you're interested in this sort of idea, let me know and I can give you more details.
I think Shaman should be an interesting choice in a lot of situations, so it was fun for me to read your summary, Steel Refrain.
And (whether it helps the OP or not), I'm curious now:
What do you all know about the Skald? Might it be a good choice for someone in the OP's situation?
I usually love to play supporter and/or controller characters, but after one particular event in which I had to spam Heal with my druid like there was no tomorrow and my animal companion had to do almost all damage, I decided that I had my party very bad accustomed. Of course, I also had to do all the controlling. Every single encounter was the same. It was very stressful for me.
In the Way of the Wicked campaign we are currently playing, one of my friends said he would play a wizard, while another one rolled an alchemist. I announced that this time I would roll a melee and picked an antipaladin. The horror faces of my friends had no price.
Suddenly, another player announced that he would play "same as me" and another one picked a rogue. Then, the wizard player said that he "doesn't want to lose against the paladins" and rerolled to an inquisitor (WTF? We don't PVP!).
In every single combat we fought, only the rogue and me finished them conscious. The inquisitor and the alchemist have already died. The inquisitor rolled a magus and was near death again. They were so bad accustomed to have my characters playing mom that they had become too reckless. The inquisitor-now magus and the alchemist have already quit the game "because they were not having fun" and the other antipaladin misses more than comes.
No remorse for my part. Our GM has completed the party with some NPC and the rogue and I are having a blast. And we have recently recruited another player (a druid).
Sometimes pain is the best educator.
I have the perfect solution. Take one for the team and play a healer.
You don't have to be a full time healer, but make sure you're able to patch the others back together when things go south.
Maybe try playing Krugthunk, the oracle of battle. Still twice as strong as an ox and half as smart, but occasionally Gorum puts a healing spell in his hands.
Mostly being able to drop pretty much everything with a DC 22 Color Spray (DM is running a bunch of unchained optional rules, including overclocked spells, which I can auto-hit for color spray on a 1 with a +12 spellcraft at level 1, that plus my 22 Int, spell focus, arcane point and spell specialist archetype, results in derpage), .Why did you pick illusionist arcanist? What's fun about those choices for you?
Heavens oracle can beat that easy.
I have the perfect solution. Take one for the team and play a healer.
You don't have to be a full time healer, but make sure you're able to patch the others back together when things go south.
Maybe try playing Krugthunk, the oracle of battle. Still twice as strong as an ox and half as smart, but occasionally Gorum puts a healing spell in his hands.
The lack of healing is only one part of the equation. If I stayed with my original plan, we have no primary divine or arcane spellcaster, no knowledge skills, no languages, the cavalier isn't built for face skills, no sneaky rogue skills, and no UMD. Basically, we have damage and hitpoints, most of us still have garbage saves too.
The lack of healing is only one part of the equation. If I stayed with my original plan, we have no primary divine or arcane spellcaster, no knowledge skills, no languages, the cavalier isn't built for face skills, no sneaky rogue skills, and no UMD. Basically, we have damage and hitpoints, most of us still have garbage saves too.I have the perfect solution. Take one for the team and play a healer.
You don't have to be a full time healer, but make sure you're able to patch the others back together when things go south.
Maybe try playing Krugthunk, the oracle of battle. Still twice as strong as an ox and half as smart, but occasionally Gorum puts a healing spell in his hands.
Well, then there's two options. Sit down with them and discuss it. or run a straight fighter. ;-)
If our group's experience in RotRL is any indication, there will be opportunities to replace less-than-fully-optimized martial characters once it gets hard.
We started with a Druid, Swashbuckler, Monk, and Kineticist and finished with a Druid, Oracle, Barbarian, and Kineticist.
I think Shaman should be an interesting choice in a lot of situations, so it was fun for me to read your summary, Steel Refrain.
And (whether it helps the OP or not), I'm curious now:
What do you all know about the Skald? Might it be a good choice for someone in the OP's situation?
I second your suggestion. The Skald class is just begging for a group of melee-ers like OP's.