deuxhero |
Does anyone have any suggestions for helping large groups of low level enemies do something other than fish for 20s against decently leveled PCs (say 5+ levels of difference) and aren't dependant on money (because this will obviously be looted) or high level allies?
I can think of Aid Another, Freebooter, Bardic Music (including the many archetypes that grant it) and Bless. Any other suggestions?
Michael Sayre |
Have you looked at something like the Mass Combat rules from Ultimate Campaign, or maybe hybridizing them? I think your request is what the troop subtype was intended to address. Condensing 20 fighters down into a single troop with adjusted stats should be easier to run at the table too.
deuxhero |
@environment
I was thinking of environment, but I was having trouble coming up with specifics beyond "water enemies attack in water" type stuff.
@troop
I was wondering if that template had a PF equivalent. Unfortunately I can't find any guidelines for actually converting encounters into a troop (and I'm terrible at making monsters from scratch). Do they exist? Also was thinking of sizes smaller than 16 (the minimum going by size).
@nets
That's a good one.
avr |
If the PCs are heavily reliant on armor then alchemist's fire etc. have some use.
If the PCs don't have life bubble or air bubble for everyone then smoke-filled warrens can be difficult. This combines naturally with the alchemist's fire. Credit: Tucker's Kobolds.
When you have a lot of archers then the volley fire teamwork feat is +4 attack for most of them. Elemental commixture does some weird stuff which can make low-level casters more effective. Amplified rage makes barbarians with orc blood more effective, and orc barbarians were already relatively dangerous.
But yeah, I'm interested to know if there's more than the 2 examples of troops I could find on d20pfsrd, or any system for making them.
UnArcaneElection |
Teamwork feats in general should be good. These are also available to PCs, but in practice it seems that very few PCs ever use them unless they have a class feature (like Cavalier, Hunter, or Inquisitor) that hands them out, but as the GM, feel free to build/rebuild all your NPCs with optimized Teamwork feats and tactical training, while leaving them with gear that is generally not worth looting. In addition to laying traps, have them do things like scatter eggshells on the ground to impair PCs' Stealth. Also have the more organized enemies organize them into squads of optimized composition.
Michael Sayre |
Teamwork feats in general should be good. These are also available to PCs, but in practice it seems that very few PCs ever use them unless they have a class feature (like Cavalier, Hunter, or Inquisitor) that hands them out, but as the GM, feel free to build/rebuild all your NPCs with optimized Teamwork feats and tactical training, while leaving them with gear that is generally not worth looting. In addition to laying traps, have them do things like scatter eggshells on the ground to impair PCs' Stealth. Also have the more organized enemies organize them into squads of optimized composition.
Good call, teamwork feats are great for customizing enemy mobs and allowing them to become more than the sum of their parts, and there are enough of them out there to support pretty much whatever combat theme(s) you want your mooks to have. Orcs of Golarion had a bunch of teamwork feats that were pretty much no-brainers for groups of orcish NPCs, and you could maybe even have some fun with a group of (for example) goblins who all have Betrayal teamwork feats and use each other as human (goblin) shields while horrifying the party with their callous disregard for their allies' well-being.
Desepchun |
Does anyone have any suggestions for helping large groups of low level enemies do something other than fish for 20s against decently leveled PCs (say 5+ levels of difference) and aren't dependant on money (because this will obviously be looted) or high level allies?
I can think of Aid Another, Freebooter, Bardic Music (including the many archetypes that grant it) and Bless. Any other suggestions?
Aid Another, especially if there is a significant size difference between the players and whatever they are fighting. Bigger isn't always better. DC10 check for a +2 bonus that stacks, go with 2 smaller creatures per square and your looking at +14 to hit for one of them, give half the little guys reach weapons and your party is in deep manure. Don't see any reason it wouldn't work on a CMB check either, most PC's don't fight very well on their backs. Doesn't cost any feats and is available to every creature they encounter.
Helaman |
The Dragons Demand has a particularly nasty battle with Kobolds who were slinging from prepared elevated positions that needed climb rolls to get up while other kobolds speared any climbers. That was a tough battle... we got some breathing space via a fog cloud/obscuring mist before assaulting the positions.
It wasn't tuckers kobolds bad but it was tougher than it should have been.
Kyudoka |
Have the mooks throw alchemical items like fire. Kobolds and other monsters can throw wicker baskets containing centipede/rat/snake swarms. The smaller/weaker the monster, the more they rely on 'tricks' to keep the larger, more powerful adversaries at bay.
Also, terrain. If the baddies are small, like kobolds, use smaller passages so that medium characters have to squeeze (-4 to attack, -4 to AC). Have difficult terrain between the party and the monsters to remove charging and double the time to contact, allowing massed ranged fire.
Reach weapons mixed with regular melee weapons to create a phalanx effect.
Cover (+4 to AC) for mooks either behind rock outcroppings, trees, or merely turning tables on their side.
Massed combat maneuver attacks ie dog piling.
Mix and match for extra fun and flavour :)
Covent |
Ratfolk + Menacing enchant + Outflank?
Add Butterfly sting or sneak attack to taste?
Reach builds that use the helpful trait along with fool for friends and battlefield disciple for a +5 or 6 on attacks?
All of this could give a +11 or 12 total before bard song.
Add this and you could have +12 to 17, with master performer grand master performer, depending on level.
Only thing that costs money here is the menacing enchant.
Add bodyguard shenanigans for fun.
Elder Basilisk |
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Troop subtype/template is terrible. It punishes players for doing things that should be effective against large groups of monsters (whirlwind attack? Doesn't work. Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon? Does nothing. Great Cleave? Doesn't work either.)
You're better off using a mix of tactics:
1. Cavaliers and teamwork feats. A lot of helpful feats like Volley Fire or Outflank have pre-reqs that make it hard for NPCs to get them and work best with other feats that compete with them. The answer? Cavaliers to grant teamwork feats. That way the NPCs get them as well as the other feats they need. Also, cavaliers are ideal for small group leaders anyway.
2. Bardic inspiration. Inspire courage and don't look back. Skalds are good too. Inspiring rage and granting those one shot rage powers that are a waste for PCs but aren't bad for an NPC who will probably only live to make one attack anyway.
3. Clerical magic. Bless and prayer are big here. If prayer is too high level, put it on a scroll.
4. Arcane magic. Haste is a great force multiplier even for low level monsters. That +1 to hit stacks. Good hope, is another helpful spell. If you are homebrewing, importing mass curse of impending blades from 3.5 is a good option. And if all of those are too high level for your bad guys, you can always put them on a scroll. That bard you have in the enemy group to give them +1 can read the scrolls with his other standard actions. Greater Magic Weapon (also good for divine but at higher level) is also long enough duration that a bad guy can cast it on a few minions without being present. That's good for a lieutenant or to give 5 arrows each to ten low level minions. The same is true for Flame Arrow.
5. Situational modifiers. Get your bad guys on higher ground (+1). Have them charge (+2) and flank (another +2 or +4 with flank).
6. Nets and tanglefoot bags can be very helpful too.
7. Darkness and lighting. Just firing out of the darkness into a group of PCs lit up either by dancing lights, light spells, or their own torches will deny the PCs' dex to AC.
8. Spell like abilities. Derro are a great example of this. Even at 11th and 12th level, groups of derro can be threatening. The first 1d8 from sound burst is not big deal but when ten derro all show up and all sound burst the party, that's 10d8 no save. And sooner or later, even the low DC probably stunned someone. If lots of derro get the drop on the party, they can put a hurt on even high level PCs using the SLAs.
9. Depending upon the setting, gunslingers might be appropriate. Gunslingers rarely have trouble hitting and depending upon the tech level, the firearms might not actually be too valuable.
10. It was cheesy then and is still cheesy, but there is tradition and lore to support it in some settings. Drow frequently had magic weapons and armor that disintegrated when brought into the sunlight. That way, they could hit the PCs with +4 weapons without the PCs ending up overloaded with loot. In the right setting, you could take advantage of that tradition.
11. Offensively focused monsters. An orc barbarian 1 with a greataxe and a halfling fighter 1 with a tower shield are both CR 1/2, but the orc is going to stand up to higher level monsters much better. Starting with +4 strength on top of elite array and then getting another +4 from rage means that, if you gave him weapon focus, he'll be hitting at +8. Toss in a bard and a cleric for +1 each and have him charge into a flank and now he's swinging at +14 to hit. That's going to be relevant for a lot longer than defensively focused monsters. (Also, the defensive focus will become irrelevant as PCs get higher level. AC 23 is tough for 4th level PCs, but by the time they're 8th level, there's not too much difference between the orc's 13 and that 23).
For the most part, you probably won't want or need to use every suggestion at once. Using two or three techniques will often enable bad guys to be a threat to characters four levels higher than them. You can run an encounter of orc barbarians led by an evangelist of Gruumsch and a barbarian warchief and have it feel very different from a troop of hobgoblins marching under the direction of an experience captain (cavalier) with a drummer and standardbearer (bard and a second cavalier).
Ultimately, this is a D&D derivative and characters are supposed to eventually be awesome enough that they can take on lots of low level monsters and win handily. That's a feature, not a bug--there are other games where even the most fearsome warrior can be felled by a lucky guttersnipe with dagger she doesn't know how to use properly if that's your thing. But if you use the system well, there is a lot more room than most people appreciate where well constructed encounters using lots of 1st and 2nd level opponents can threaten mid level characters.