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I started this discussion over on the GitP forums. and decided it would be interesting to get the take of another group of people on this premise.
Word for word;
A thought experiment and discussion I wanted to start up, just for the hell of it. In short, what would happen if (by some set of absurd means) someone managed to apply the effects of Helm of Opposite Alignment to the entirety of the Great Beyond. Everyone is flipped to their opposite alignment, though for simplicity exclude changes to those of TN alignment, and even the planes themselves flip with it. Deities for the most part change alignment, but their portfolios remain the same otherwise, if modified slightly to better fit their new alignment.
What would occur? What sorts of entities would exist then? What would you play different in such a setting?
And if you are wondering why I put this in the advice forum.. There isn't a clear spot far as I am concerned and this seemed like the closest. If it gets moved, then it gets moved.
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Should stay the same. Assuming everything is in balance, that means the world will be the same, but the names different, and the locations of evil people different. It'd be awkward, but pretty much the same.
I assume it's balanced since all sides exist. Though Lawful Good Demons with all of their vast magnitude might lead an ironic crusade and win... They might even team up with other previous evil and finally get the organization that prevented demons from killing everything.
Yeah, that's what it'd take for one side to win. Evil is split by conflict, and making them good unites them all against evil/good. All right never mind, all Evil will end up dying.
Not to mention Asmodeus will believe in freedom and free Rovagug who will lead the new crusade...
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Actually.,. Would a CG Asmodeus release LG rovagug?
Flipped, CG Asmodeus might believe in freedom more than benevolence and view Rova as a paragon of law, robbing freedom in spite of beinv now good aligned.
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A very interesting question. With some deities, like Apsu and Dahak, there wouldn't be a big change. Apsu would be the new Dahak and vice versa. It would be interesting to see a Sarenrae dedicated to corruption, an Asmodeus dedicated to freedom, and a Rovagug dedicated to smiling evil. I definitely think that the formerly evil, yet now good side would win overall. The main reason why they haven't already is because they are divided. As the good guys, they now have the advantage. Keep in mind that the now-good side has undead as well as fiends. Does this change mean that necromancy is now good? If not, then the good undead group gradually diminishes and a new one grows for the now-evil side. Then, we're basically back where we started as far as undead go.
As far as outsiders go, fiends win. There's almost no contest. There is a ludicrously large number of demon lords, definitely more than the empyreal lords. And that doesn't even account for daemons or devils. The other fiends would probably help destroy wardstones in the Worldwound, and then those demon lords come to Golarion. That sentence would usually not be so comforting, but in this context, it's great.
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A very interesting question. With some deities, like Apsu and Dahak, there wouldn't be a big change. Apsu would be the new Dahak and vice versa. It would be interesting to see a Sarenrae dedicated to corruption, an Asmodeus dedicated to freedom, and a Rovagug dedicated to smiling evil. I definitely think that the formerly evil, yet now good side would win overall. The main reason why they haven't already is because they are divided. As the good guys, they now have the advantage. Keep in mind that the now-good side has undead as well as fiends. Does this change mean that necromancy is now good? If not, then the good undead group gradually diminishes and a new one grows for the now-evil side. Then, we're basically back where we started as far as undead go.
As far as outsiders go, fiends win. There's almost no contest. There is a ludicrously large number of demon lords, definitely more than the empyreal lords. And that doesn't even account for daemons or devils. The other fiends would probably help destroy wardstones in the Worldwound, and then those demon lords come to Golarion. That sentence would usually not be so comforting, but in this context, it's great.
Thats a good question, regarding necromancy. I think what needs addressed is -why- necromancy is evil. If it is harmful to the soul, still evil. If it is however an aligned planar interaction, then it would be good.
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Necromancy and Evil have been rammed together in a rather hammy and irrational way frankly its as if the team just picked 'nasty things' and made them necromancy with no clear reliance on on logic.
Take for example, The Inflict line of spells and the cure line of spells, the cure line of spells are conjuration, presumably because they conjure positive energy from the positive energy plane, yet the inflict line are nercomancy, why? Who knows no clear reason exists for why one could not conjure negative energy from the negative energy plane.
So perhaps Necromancy is just power over death, when really it should be life and death
this raises two issues, Why is Raise dead not a necromancy spell? its direct control over the forces of death, well because Raise Dead is nice.
Furthermore, Waves of Ecstasy is Enchanting same goes for Euphoric Tranquility, thus we establish that Enchanting has the power to manipulate ones emotions, yet Fear is necromancy. How is making someone scared any different from making someone Euphoric or ecstatic?
well its nasty so we will stick it in necromancy with the various other random nasty things.
Necromancy has no clear niche is in control of life and death, or even just death, and it takes the unpleasant bits other schools of magic would rather not associate with. Its just unimaginatively nasty and bad and bleh.
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It would be an all-around much better world, it seems. That said, remember the neutrals like Pharasma who appear to show slight favor towards good-aligned deities? What happens to that when Urgathoa is good and Sarenrae is evil? What happens when Pharasma becomes the enemy of the good guys?
Also, the Shelyn/Zon-Kuthon dynamic is about to get way more interesting. The NE goddess of beauty, love, and "redemption" (which of course turns into corruption) struggles to get her significantly less strong-willed LG brother to overcome the holy powers of the glaive that redeemed him and return to evil.
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Yeah, necromancy losing healing and getting fear was an awful trade, both mechanically and flavor-wise.
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LE Desna would ensure that the trains run on time, at all costs.
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Also, Groetus? Cheeriest. Apocalypse. Ever.
I officially want to play in this world.
LE Desna would ensure that the trains run on time, at all costs.
I think her portfolio gets interesting. Instead of being the goddess of safe nighttime travel and happy creative dreams, she might turn into a sort of "dream warden", sending nightmares to her enemies and grim meditative "planning grounds" to her servants.
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Well, I imagine that evil would find itself routed very quickly, since the infinite benevolent hordes of the abyss would probably work together a lot better than they did before.
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It does occur to me that while we may be flipping undead and outsiders and gods and stuff, the OP didn't say anything about the worshipers. Assuming we don't bend that, it's gonna get a bit...frustrating for some of the racial deities.
Lamashtu becomes the lovable goddess of misunderstood monsters. Her layer of the Abyss is basically Sesame Street.
Gorum is the god of controlled demolitions and chivalric war.
Droskar is now the lovable hippie anarcho-communist god of working hard to benefit your community, but he doesn't see himself as the duergar's boss. He's their pal! Their buddy! He, um, really wishes they would listen to him and stop taking slaves, though. They really don't seem to get what he's advocating. He shaved their heads once as a practical joke, but they take everything so seriously...
Calistria is the frustrated "cat herder" of the world, struggling to get the amorous elves to just follow the damn schedules. No! Stop that! Yes, sex is good, but it's not Tuesday yet! Why won't anyone listen?! She carries grudges like nobody's business, but counsels her followers to be cautious and fair when deciding revenge is warranted. The elves never listen. They never listen.
Nethys has no f*#~ing idea what's going on with everyone, but when has he ever?
Thing is since evil is currently set up to be higher in population than good in the outer planes, you'd have a major cosmological alignment shift.
You'd probably remove most of the need for heroes at all, pretty much retiring the setting as a gaming possibility.
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How does that remove the need for heroes? Last I checked, most adventures are set on the Material Plane and they do just fine. The evil angels and archons and such would just retreat to the evil gods' homes, where they would pop up on occasion as major objects of terror for those on the Material Plane. Additionally, the celestials that survived would likely become hardened veterans, each one a force to be reckoned with in its own right.
Also, don't forget: Angels have no direct evil counterpart. That's specifically outlined in the Bestiary. So the celestials do have that advantage. Angels are nasty.
Also, Groetus? Cheeriest. Apocalypse. Ever.
I'd argue that Apocalypse might be one of those things that would change to better fit their new alignment
perhaps when Groetus descends the cosmological crusade begins and Pharasma the most powerful god in the setting is suddenly putting off the end of all evilbut to go to war with Pharasma would be one, arguably a bad idea and two arguably not an act of good at she is true neutrality
all the neutral races of the cosmos may not take kindly to it.
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Nah. Groetus just represents that the world has to end sometime. He'd be sort of like Pharasma, but for the universe.
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The Underdark would be like a quiet, jazzy cafe while the Upperlight would be noisy, grating place of advertisements and pain.
Negative energy plane would be full of helpful negacreatures that just want to be eco-sustainable tour guides. The positive energy plane would have bands of insane lantern archons who beep incessantly and laser anything that comes in contact with them.
The Abyss would probably be like that episode of the Simpsons where they wished for world peace (That's very selfish of you Lisa!) and everyone got rid of their weapons and started planting gardens. But then celestials show up and enslave them all.
The Fey are still jerks. But more like tax accountants.
Absolutely nothing interesting happens with dragons that doesn't immediately balance itself out with a palette swap.
Undead still haunt areas, but more like janitors, nurses and even baby sitters.
The Outer Gods and weird aberration Lovecraftian creatures become social workers, councilors and psychologists. Aboleths become liberal art celebrities, they're followed by Groupies (formerly known as Gillmen)
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Would CG Asmodeus basically be the God of Public Defenders? If you're accused of something you didn't do, being taken advantage of by an unfair contract, or unjustly imprisoned call 1-800-ASM-ODEU?
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A Chaotic Lord of Contracts...what would that even look like?
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A Chaotic Lord of Contracts...what would that even look like?
Spirit of the law trumps letter of the law, as it were.
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Eh, I think that's too easy. But I haven't got any better ideas...
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Thing is since evil is currently set up to be higher in population than good in the outer planes, you'd have a major cosmological alignment shift.
You'd probably remove most of the need for heroes at all, pretty much retiring the setting as a gaming possibility.
Like I said, benevolent hordes of the Abyss.
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The god of contracts, Asmodeus, is now CG. Lawyers are now understanding, rules are arbitrated based on intention, and the underdog has the best lawyers lining up to take their case.
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The economy would collapse overnight as Abadar becomes CN. Property is Theft!
Erastil gets back to being the misogynistic SOB he once might have been. Though I don't know how a CE god of communities would work. Violently, I imagine.
The four horsemen (Live, Peace, Health, Food) would release Abaddon to do...what?
Efreet and Glabrezu would be handing out wishes to orphanages and not being a dick about the exact wording.
And Grappling a Succubus is no longer contra-indicated.
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Does the antipaladin fall?
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Evil campaigns are the new normal.
We had trouble enough when bands of bloodthirsty murderhobos put a nominal "goodish" alignment on a character sheet. Somehow I don't think all those alignment shifted outsiders are much help against roving murderhobos that don't even pay lip service to being "goodish" anymore.
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And what about Galt?
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The economy would collapse overnight as Abadar becomes CN. Property is Theft!
Erastil gets back to being the misogynistic SOB he once might have been. Though I don't know how a CE god of communities would work. Violently, I imagine.
The four horsemen (Live, Peace, Health, Food) would release Abaddon to do...what?
Efreet and Glabrezu would be handing out wishes to orphanages and not being a dick about the exact wording.
And Grappling a Succubus is no longer contra-indicated.
Changing the alignment does nothing to change the consequences of an act of passion. :)
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The economy would collapse overnight as Abadar becomes CN. Property is Theft!
Erastil gets back to being the misogynistic SOB he once might have been. Though I don't know how a CE god of communities would work. Violently, I imagine.
The four horsemen (Live, Peace, Health, Food) would release Abaddon to do...what?
The Horsemen would still be Death, War, Famine and Plague—they'd just be Good about it, meaning they might come after the event to help, rather than be the cause of the event.
Evil campaigns are the new normal.
What? Why?
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Hmmm.
Let's look at some of the other deities that weren't touched yet.
Irori would throw up his arms and go "Y'all's stupid. Screwit. I'm done. Time for some fun."
Cayden Cailean would become the Drunk Hero^2. If you ain't a drinker to excess, he don't want you. Or anyone else.
Torag would probably tell his people that they've been chained up for too long, they need to be free to do whatever to whoever and themselves and stop bothering the crap outta him with their boring procedures!
Goblin Gods would suddenly become well-meaning pyromaniacs/animal tamers/swimmers/gatherers that would help folks out in the woods do things.
Iomedae would probably declare a 'Blood Holiday', and the person who brought her the most would be her new champion (that she'd then kill as soon as she saw them).
Gozreh would go 'Meh, whatevs'.
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What about the Darklands? The Drow would probably do some cool stuff.
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Cayden would be Lawful Evil, so I'm not sure he'd be quite as drunk or quite as much a "hero". As the LE god of freedom, bravery and drink, he would probably become something of a...ugh, I have no clue. Some of these gods are really closely linked to their alignments, and Cayden, with "freedom", is definitely one of them.
Torag, meanwhile, would be Chaotic Evil. As the god of planning and creation, though, I think he turns frenetic and disorganized. Torag now loves to build and expand, but his plans tend to become overburdened, leading him to command the dwarves to war and conquer. Basically, think of an evil Basil Fawlty.
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I feel like Cayden would become the god of alcoholism-leading to a cycle of poverty and misery. Or something. Maybe the god of violet drunks.
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Cayden would become the god of the kind of alcholism that put an irrevocable rift between me and my alcholic father. He'd embody the nasty, manipulative addict who'd sacrifice anyone and everyone to his habit.
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Just got thinking about Norgorber in relation to all this.
So, Reaper of Reputation would... *cocks head sideways* ... maybe a seeker of truth sort of thing.
I could see the poisoner aspect becoming closer to a deity of healers and medicine.
Secrets could become the proliferation of knowledge, perhaps specializing in educating the downtrodden.
Father Skinsaw... maybe this would morph into a deity of detectives tracking down murderers?
That all needs some work. Fun mental exercise though.
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Cayden would be Lawful Evil, so I'm not sure he'd be quite as drunk or quite as much a "hero". As the LE god of freedom, bravery and drink, he would probably become something of a...ugh, I have no clue. Some of these gods are really closely linked to their alignments, and Cayden, with "freedom", is definitely one of them.
Torag, meanwhile, would be Chaotic Evil. As the god of planning and creation, though, I think he turns frenetic and disorganized. Torag now loves to build and expand, but his plans tend to become overburdened, leading him to command the dwarves to war and conquer. Basically, think of an evil Basil Fawlty.
Lawful Evil doesn't always oppose personal freedom. He could advocate people having personal codes, rather than following a set rule of law.
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Just got thinking about Norgorber in relation to all this.
So, Reaper of Reputation would... *cocks head sideways* ... maybe a seeker of truth sort of thing.
I could see the poisoner aspect becoming closer to a deity of healers and medicine.
Secrets could become the proliferation of knowledge, perhaps specializing in educating the downtrodden.
Father Skinsaw... maybe this would morph into a deity of detectives tracking down murderers?
That all needs some work. Fun mental exercise though.
I think the NG god of secrets, murder and poison would become a sort of vigilante detective—the sort who can keep a secret if it's worth keeping. He would be patron to informants, and all those who share or hold onto information even at their own risk.
Urgathoa the NG goddess of physical excess, disease, and the undead would become the protector of lepers, carriers, and the infirm. Her undead followers would move into plague-ridden towns (being themselves immune) and work to help those afflicted. She would also become basically the new Cayden Cailean—lots of excessive feasts and the like.
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Rovagug dedicated to smiling evilDone.
So, what you guys are saying is that LawfulGood!Rovagug is pretty much Ragathiel?
...I see no problems with this.
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Evil campaigns are the new normal.
We had trouble enough when bands of bloodthirsty murderhobos put a nominal "goodish" alignment on a character sheet. Somehow I don't think all those alignment shifted outsiders are much help against roving murderhobos that don't even pay lip service to being "goodish" anymore.
Wouldn't that mean (since we are supposing that everyone's alignment got reversed) that by your logic, instead of a bunch of "good" people running around acting evil, we would have a lot of "evil" people running around doing good?
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I feel like Cayden would become the god of alcoholism-leading to a cycle of poverty and misery. Or something. Maybe the god of violet drunks.
So a god of status quo? Head honcho of Lawful Stupid? "I must drink because it is the law: MY LAW." I feel like he'd be the illegitimate "father" of a lot of murderhobos...
Also regarding the Demon Lords, how would that work? Like Shax beicomng a cape like Superman or Batman-but-with-storks? How about Jubilex becoming an ultra-tidy god of sanitation systems? Ooh, Jezelda becomes a meteorologist and a proponent of responsible spaying and neutering of pets?
Also also, what about the harbingers? I get that the daemons in normal form are the worst kind of nihilists, but I'm homing that in their flipped form, they become less like stereotypes and more like... well, this. 80's attire and all.
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Oh, I think I've got it! Cayden Cailean, god of sloth and irresponsibility. Mirror Cayden loves freedom—freedom to be inactive and drunk 24/7. The afterlife for his worshipers is just him in a dark corner, crying into his ale about how Calistria will never love him.
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I JUST thought of something after reading Malefactor's post: what would this mean for all the Chaotic Stupid, Lawful Stupid and other "Stupid" alignment types? Would bad paladins and monks turn into kender? Would rogues derail the plot by writing people traffic tickets?
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Oh, I think I've got it! Cayden Cailean, god of sloth and irresponsibility. Mirror Cayden loves freedom—freedom to be inactive and drunk 24/7. The afterlife for his worshipers is just him in a dark corner, crying into his ale about how Calistria will never love him.
In his house at Absalom, drunk Cayden waits hungover. Waking him initiatates an apocalypse, or at least a REEEALLY bad headache.
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I'm going to hide this thread... it's pushing too many of my personal buttons. Not criticising anyone at all... alcoholism is simply one of my sensitive subjects, and one in which I have little objectivity remaining.
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Oh, sorry. Yeah, we'll move on from Cayden Cailean.